Lauri Markkanen Discussion Thread: PT 2

[FanInTheAttic]

I really disagree that a team can't have much effect in player development, at least when talking about rookies and players on their first contract. Team determines which skills a player must work on and what aspects of his play needs development, based on his role and player position in in the team. Do you really think a rookie player could just decide the role and the way he will play in the team and develop his skills accordingly? Playing or not plying guys to their strengths is part of player development. And if a player is not putting in the work there is a lot the team can do. Make the player work harder by creating an environment that supports player development, and that is not just about facilities or trainers. I think it is in the players and teams interest to get best results with developing players, and it is probably not very common to have a NBA player without internal drive. But the team can make wrong decisions and have staff that doesn't know how to work with certain players, the player can only work as hard as he can according to the teams plans. Of course most players will never become stars in this league, no matter how hard they work or how they are developed, and the team effect in player development is limited, but to say it can't have much effect is not right IMO.

As I said, the individual player's work ethic is the majority of it. The difference between Eddy Curry and Jimmy Butler on how bad they want it has a much bigger impact than anything the team does.

For the most part, I don't think a team looks at Doncic and says, we're going to turn you into a post up center. While occasionally there are guys whom might be limited in their role, literally every front office wants every player to learn to shoot and play defense. If you are great at those two things, then you're already a great player in the league, and they're probably the two skills most likely to be developed from a skill standpoint.

Ball handling / court vision are a hell of a lot harder to learn at an elite NBA level than shooting / defense, and so maybe there are a few guys who would go on to be much better shot creators if developed that way, if they can't first learn to be good shooters / defenders, I think it's probably reasonably unlikely, and every FO is going to hope every player develops those two skills.

I do see what you're saying about role being important, I think it is a bit less important given the above, but I agree they are comingled and not fully separable though.

Maybe the difference in our thinking is that I find it hard to believe that there would be many players in the beginning of their NBA careers that would have a significantly lower work ethic than their fellow rookie players. They all worked hard to play in the NBA and surely want to work even harder to succeed in the NBA. They are all extremely competitive. And if they for some reason don't have the work ethic, it is the teams responsibility to create an environment where they feel it is important to work hard. These are young people, some of them in their teens, they might not always have the perspective to make right decisions to support their development, the team has highly paid and experienced professionals to think about these things all day.

Surely there are skills that every FO would like their players to have, but there are many ways to develop those skills. For example, a player that could play in all 3-4-5 positions, how to develop his skills depends on what position he is going to mostly play in, you have to make choices. And the important skills and ways of playing are constantly in flux in the NBA. What is a good idea now, might not be such a good idea in 5 years when other teams are changing their ways of playing.

All that being said, it is also possible that a team drafts a player that has no interest in developing himself and doesn't want to work hard for it, but I think that is pretty marginal in the larger context. Also all players are individuals, some players are probably easier to develop than others. In that case the way a team approaches certain players development is even more important. And also there are players who are just not as talented as others, and they hit a ceiling in development, no matter what. Then it is also in the teams responsibility (and interest) to recognize this and develop the player accordingly.

[FranchisePlayer]

Lets not forget that Boylen wanted Lauri to be stretch 5. Bulking up and rebounding. That was the peak player development the Bulls ever had on Lauri.

What do you Neon think about the claims of Lauri being soft and injury prone?

Markkanen 47
-----------
James 43
Monk 38
D.J. Wilson 35
Davis 33
Justin Jackson 33
Durant 31
Ntilikina 29
Smith Jr. 23
Patton 13
Fulz 8
Isaac...
Zach Collins...

Just saying.

[GoBlue72391]

Lets not forget that Boylen wanted Lauri to be stretch 5. Bulking up and rebounding. That was the peak player development the Bulls ever had on Lauri.

What do you Neon think about the claims of Lauri being soft and injury prone?

Markkanen 47
-----------
James 43
Monk 38
D.J. Wilson 35
Davis 33
Justin Jackson 33
Durant 31
Ntilikina 29
Smith Jr. 23
Patton 13
Fulz 8
Isaac...
Zach Collins...

Just saying.

I'm assuming this is games played this season?

Pretty strange to compare Lauri to the likes of LeBron and such. The dude has been an ironman the vast majority of his 18 year career while Lauri has yet to play 70 games in a single season. Compared to DJ Wilson? Justin Jackson? DSJ? Justin Patton? Congrats, he plays more than scrubs who pile up DNPs and struggle to even get consistent rotation minutes when they're healthy.

I don't think it's fair to call Lauri injury prone since he's never had a major injury and all his injuries have been minor, but he's also not a guy you can count on to play more than 65 or so games in a season at most. You have to factor that in when considering his next contract.

As for him being soft? I do think it's fair to label him that. He has periods where he's not soft, but those aren't often enough. Like PWill, he's too passive too often. He's content to cast up a lazy 3 instead of a better look, he doesn't look for his shot enough especially recently, and often he's too quick to pass the ball back out on aborted drives.

I'm as big of a Lauri supporter one can be without crossing over to delusional fanboy territory, but these are some strange and weak arguments to use in his favor.

Sent from my SM-S115DL using RealGM mobile app

[DunkenDunk]

I have been pleasantly surprised at how Lauri is able to successfully post up mismatches this season. He always had opportunities to do so, but never was able to score very well until now, out of the blue.

I agree, there is however one big problem in that that he usually gets ball to that kind of scoring position in max 3-4 times per game. So even if he puts 70% in from those, it's only 4-6 points from 2 pointers in paint. I think reason is that Lauri is propably leaving his position too fast on the paint. He runs there but he also leaves the position pretty fastly and Bulls offensive is just not capable to get the ball in that fast for him before he has already left from the paint. (I think it would be really helpful for Lauri if he could analyze with some good ex-players his post movement from the game videos and what to improve there. That would also involve how to find a winning position for rebounds)

But second problem is that ball is simply not moving well enought in Bulls players to be able to do those passes. Bulls play ISO game and then it's not easy to do the passes from the ball handler directly to the paint. Ball should instead move from PG to with 3-8 passes in almost every offensive play before the high persentage shoot position is found. (And in modern game about 60% of those winning positions where shot is made should be behind the arc) Sometimes you see glimbses from that in 1-2 games, then it falls back again to same boring looking old game style from the 80's.

[Neonblazer]

Lets not forget that Boylen wanted Lauri to be stretch 5. Bulking up and rebounding. That was the peak player development the Bulls ever had on Lauri.

What do you Neon think about the claims of Lauri being soft and injury prone?

What does this have to do with what I just said?

[WindyCityBorn]

I really disagree that a team can't have much effect in player development, at least when talking about rookies and players on their first contract. Team determines which skills a player must work on and what aspects of his play needs development, based on his role and player position in in the team. Do you really think a rookie player could just decide the role and the way he will play in the team and develop his skills accordingly? Playing or not plying guys to their strengths is part of player development. And if a player is not putting in the work there is a lot the team can do. Make the player work harder by creating an environment that supports player development, and that is not just about facilities or trainers. I think it is in the players and teams interest to get best results with developing players, and it is probably not very common to have a NBA player without internal drive. But the team can make wrong decisions and have staff that doesn't know how to work with certain players, the player can only work as hard as he can according to the teams plans. Of course most players will never become stars in this league, no matter how hard they work or how they are developed, and the team effect in player development is limited, but to say it can't have much effect is not right IMO.

As I said, the individual player's work ethic is the majority of it. The difference between Eddy Curry and Jimmy Butler on how bad they want it has a much bigger impact than anything the team does.

For the most part, I don't think a team looks at Doncic and says, we're going to turn you into a post up center. While occasionally there are guys whom might be limited in their role, literally every front office wants every player to learn to shoot and play defense. If you are great at those two things, then you're already a great player in the league, and they're probably the two skills most likely to be developed from a skill standpoint.

Ball handling / court vision are a hell of a lot harder to learn at an elite NBA level than shooting / defense, and so maybe there are a few guys who would go on to be much better shot creators if developed that way, if they can't first learn to be good shooters / defenders, I think it's probably reasonably unlikely, and every FO is going to hope every player develops those two skills.

I do see what you're saying about role being important, I think it is a bit less important given the above, but I agree they are comingled and not fully separable though.

Maybe the difference in our thinking is that I find it hard to believe that there would be many players in the beginning of their NBA careers that would have a significantly lower work ethic than their fellow rookie players. They all worked hard to play in the NBA and surely want to work even harder to succeed in the NBA. They are all extremely competitive. And if they for some reason don't have the work ethic, it is the teams responsibility to create an environment where they feel it is important to work hard. These are young people, some of them in their teens, they might not always have the perspective to make right decisions to support their development, the team has highly paid and experienced professionals to think about these things all day.

Surely there are skills that every FO would like their players to have, but there are many ways to develop those skills. For example, a player that could play in all 3-4-5 positions, how to develop his skills depends on what position he is going to mostly play in, you have to make choices. And the important skills and ways of playing are constantly in flux in the NBA. What is a good idea now, might not be such a good idea in 5 years when other teams are changing their ways of playing.

All that being said, it is also possible that a team drafts a player that has no interest in developing himself and doesn't want to work hard for it, but I think that is pretty marginal in the larger context. Also all players are individuals, some players are probably easier to develop than others. In that case the way a team approaches certain players development is even more important. And also there are players who are just not as talented as others, and they hit a ceiling in development, no matter what. Then it is also in the teams responsibility (and interest) to recognize this and develop the player accordingly.

Most NBA don't get married and start a family before they are 21. I really think that impacted Lauri's desire to be great for whatever reason.

[WindyCityBorn]

I have been pleasantly surprised at how Lauri is able to successfully post up mismatches this season. He always had opportunities to do so, but never was able to score very well until now, out of the blue.

I agree, there is however one big problem in that that he usually gets ball to that kind of scoring position in max 3-4 times per game. So even if he puts 70% in from those, it's only 4-6 points from 2 pointers in paint. I think reason is that Lauri is propably leaving his position too fast on the paint. He runs there but he also leaves the position pretty fastly and Bulls offensive is just not capable to get the ball in that fast for him before he has already left from the paint. (I think it would be really helpful for Lauri if he could analyze with some good ex-players his post movement from the game videos and what to improve there. That would also involve how to find a winning position for rebounds)

But second problem is that ball is simply not moving well enought in Bulls players to be able to do those passes. Bulls play ISO game and then it's not easy to do the passes from the ball handler directly to the paint. Ball should instead move from PG to with 3-8 passes in almost every offensive play before the high persentage shoot position is found. (And in modern game about 60% of those winning positions where shot is made should be behind the arc) Sometimes you see glimbses from that in 1-2 games, then it falls back again to same boring looking old game style from the 80's.

Bulls are top 5 in league in assists. That doesn't happen playing ISO ball. This is just another weak excuse for Lauri.

[CobyWhite0]

I have been pleasantly surprised at how Lauri is able to successfully post up mismatches this season. He always had opportunities to do so, but never was able to score very well until now, out of the blue.

I agree, there is however one big problem in that that he usually gets ball to that kind of scoring position in max 3-4 times per game. So even if he puts 70% in from those, it's only 4-6 points from 2 pointers in paint. I think reason is that Lauri is propably leaving his position too fast on the paint. He runs there but he also leaves the position pretty fastly and Bulls offensive is just not capable to get the ball in that fast for him before he has already left from the paint. (I think it would be really helpful for Lauri if he could analyze with some good ex-players his post movement from the game videos and what to improve there. That would also involve how to find a winning position for rebounds)

But second problem is that ball is simply not moving well enought in Bulls players to be able to do those passes. Bulls play ISO game and then it's not easy to do the passes from the ball handler directly to the paint. Ball should instead move from PG to with 3-8 passes in almost every offensive play before the high persentage shoot position is found. (And in modern game about 60% of those winning positions where shot is made should be behind the arc) Sometimes you see glimbses from that in 1-2 games, then it falls back again to same boring looking old game style from the 80's.

Bulls are top 5 in league in assists. That doesn't happen playing ISO ball. This is just another weak excuse for Lauri.

The Bulls are 3rd in the league in assists per game, 4th in Ast%. We obviously don't have a problem with sharing the ball or moving the ball or whatever problem "ISO ball" allegedly causes.

[Hugi Mancura]

lauri had his jay cutler moments.
if he cares about the game, i would think he can be an offensive option that almost rivaled zach.
If the passion issues werent an issue, billzo couid be dead wrong about not starting him.

He has almost no ability to create his own offense. Vuc basically has the skill set we we were hoping Lauri would develop. Which is probably why they traded for him and gave up on Lauri. Would have been better for us if Lauri had actually developed since he is 7 years younger, but he didn’t and don’t think we will anywhere else either. If he finds himself on team with an elite passer that can get 4 or 5 layups a game he might do better but it will because that player made him better. He doesn’t have the drive to be great and don’t believe he puts in work in the off-season either. He has the exact same skill set he came into the league with. He has gotten better at taking advantage of mismatches in the paint this season, but that is about it in 4 years.

I have disagree with this. Bulls never wanted Lauri to become Vuc. All they wanted was a stretch shooter, nothing more, nothing less. Fans might have wanted Lauri to become more, but FO doesn't care about fans opinions.

Vuc's game is also a very good example how you develop your bigs. You run them pick&roll/pops all the time and make him play post. Bulls pretty much run 20 picks with Vuc in one period. With Lauri it has always been Lopez and WCJ who get the honor, so Bulls have been more concerned about teaching Lopez or WCJ to become better pick&roll/pop players than Lauri. So Bulls have never wanted Lauri to develop pick game.

I know Lauri wasn't great post player, but if you want to develop your young players to play on the post, you effing put him on the post. Best way to learn post play is by playing in the post. This year Lauri has been more efficient than Vuc, but it doesn't matter anymore, because most likely from the beginning of the season Bulls current FO wanted Lauri gone, so it doesn't matter what he does (unless he would have turned to superstar). Lauri's skill set as every shooting big who doesn't have huge strength base is better suited to start facing the basket in the midrange. Same way as AD does majority of his time. Not low post back towards the basket like Vuc is. You would use shooting and mobility to drive past your defender. Shoot over defender or shoot fake and drive. Bulls never really used Lauri in the post or in the midrange. I know haters gonna say he never was good, but you also forget you learn while doing it and there is not a better place to learn than a real game.

So Bulls run couple plays for Lauri in a game, but all those plays are shooting plays, which just strengthen the idea Bulls want him to become pure shooter. They don't run pick&pop's for him, where he is either big or small (he is still Bulls most efficient ball handler in pick&rolls) and never had. They don't run post plays for him (event thought he is most efficient scorer on post) and never had.

So all the claims Bulls wanted Lauri to do this or that I just don't see it. How Bulls have treated Lauri is the same way you treat your guards. Create something in the perimeter without any help from team, but Lauri is not a guard. But even guards with Bulls get way more help than Lauri. They get bigs to do pick&rolls with them all the time. Lauri doesn't get this help. So how Bulls have 'developed' Lauri look like they got exactly the player they wanted from the beginning. Stretch-4 that doesn't do anything else. So from Bulls point of view this is a successful project. Again fans might have wanted him to become more and can't really blame them, but fans don't decide where he is on the court, he doesn't decide where he is on the court, coaching staff and FO make the decision. Only top 50 players in the NBA have the power to dictate how teams will use them, rest of the players, including Lauri, do what the coaches tell them to do. If you start soloing then coach just benches you and there you will sit rest of your career.

So if he goes to other team which use him as a pick setter as much Bulls uses Vuc that would easily mean 4-6 points per game more. If other team would use him as a midrange/post player then it would be easily 4-6 points more. This is based on this years efficiencies on those situations. Or maybe the other team have noticed that Lauri is most efficient pick&roll ball handler with Bulls in these 4 years and gives him that role. Or maybe he goes to another team and sucks, but you or me or anyone else can't know how good player is in a certain role if you never give him the opportunity to be that player. Bulls have proven Lauri can't create his shot in the perimeter, but maybe that was a stupid hope in the first place. There are very few bigs who actually can do that.

[DunkenDunk]

The Bulls are 3rd in the league in assists per game, 4th in Ast%. We obviously don't have a problem with sharing the ball or moving the ball or whatever problem "ISO ball" allegedly causes.

There is a saying that there is a lie, big lie and stats. I don't know maybe it's about how they count the assisted passes as my eyes says that in most of the Bulls games the ball does not move nicely between players for finding the winning shot position. I have seen couple of games with good ball rotation but for example latest detroit game was not like that. We just ended up winning an even weaker team that is now 100% in young player development mode for rest of the season.

On the positive side, defense has got little better after Theis arrival to team. And Coby has improved a little bit but he has still long road if he wants to be a pg. (And I am not sure whether it's even wise to try to force him to be as he can be pretty good scorer just llike Zach and clearly needs lot of shot attempts and drives to feel of being in the game)

[CobyWhite0]

There is a saying that there is a lie, big lie and stats. I don't know maybe it's about how they count the assisted passes as my eyes says that in most of the Bulls games the ball does not move nicely between players for finding the winning shot position. I have seen couple of games with good ball rotation but for example latest detroit game was not like that. We just ended up winning an even weaker team that is now 100% in young player development mode for rest of the season.

On the positive side, defense has got little better after Theis arrival to team. And Coby has improved a little bit but he has still long road if he wants to be a pg. (And I am not sure whether it's even wise to try to force him to be as he can be pretty good scorer just llike Zach and clearly needs lot of shot attempts and drives to feel of being in the game)

Maybe it's your eyes that aren't seeing what's actually happening on the floor? Because the numbers don't lie, you don't get to be top-3 in the league in assists and Ast% without passing the ball.

[Neonblazer]

There is a saying that there is a lie, big lie and stats. I don't know maybe it's about how they count the assisted passes as my eyes says that in most of the Bulls games the ball does not move nicely between players for finding the winning shot position. I have seen couple of games with good ball rotation but for example latest detroit game was not like that. We just ended up winning an even weaker team that is now 100% in young player development mode for rest of the season.

On the positive side, defense has got little better after Theis arrival to team. And Coby has improved a little bit but he has still long road if he wants to be a pg. (And I am not sure whether it's even wise to try to force him to be as he can be pretty good scorer just llike Zach and clearly needs lot of shot attempts and drives to feel of being in the game)

Maybe it's your eyes that aren't seeing what's actually happening on the floor? Because the numbers don't lie, you don't get to be top-3 in the league in assists and Ast% without passing the ball.

Bulls are actually closer to average than top 3 in those categories. Just looking at the actual numbers, not the position. The reason why Bulls look like that ball doesn't move is because the ball either moves between Zach,Vuc,Sato or Coby or it doesn't move at all.

[sco]

lauri had his jay cutler moments.
if he cares about the game, i would think he can be an offensive option that almost rivaled zach.
If the passion issues werent an issue, billzo couid be dead wrong about not starting him.

He has almost no ability to create his own offense. Vuc basically has the skill set we we were hoping Lauri would develop. Which is probably why they traded for him and gave up on Lauri. Would have been better for us if Lauri had actually developed since he is 7 years younger, but he didn’t and don’t think we will anywhere else either. If he finds himself on team with an elite passer that can get 4 or 5 layups a game he might do better but it will because that player made him better. He doesn’t have the drive to be great and don’t believe he puts in work in the off-season either. He has the exact same skill set he came into the league with. He has gotten better at taking advantage of mismatches in the paint this season, but that is about it in 4 years.

I have disagree with this. Bulls never wanted Lauri to become Vuc. All they wanted was a stretch shooter, nothing more, nothing less. Fans might have wanted Lauri to become more, but FO doesn't care about fans opinions.

Vuc's game is also a very good example how you develop your bigs. You run them pick&roll/pops all the time and make him play post. Bulls pretty much run 20 picks with Vuc in one period. With Lauri it has always been Lopez and WCJ who get the honor, so Bulls have been more concerned about teaching Lopez or WCJ to become better pick&roll/pop players than Lauri. So Bulls have never wanted Lauri to develop pick game.

I know Lauri wasn't great post player, but if you want to develop your young players to play on the post, you effing put him on the post. Best way to learn post play is by playing in the post. This year Lauri has been more efficient than Vuc, but it doesn't matter anymore, because most likely from the beginning of the season Bulls current FO wanted Lauri gone, so it doesn't matter what he does (unless he would have turned to superstar). Lauri's skill set as every shooting big who doesn't have huge strength base is better suited to start facing the basket in the midrange. Same way as AD does majority of his time. Not low post back towards the basket like Vuc is. You would use shooting and mobility to drive past your defender. Shoot over defender or shoot fake and drive. Bulls never really used Lauri in the post or in the midrange. I know haters gonna say he never was good, but you also forget you learn while doing it and there is not a better place to learn than a real game.

So Bulls run couple plays for Lauri in a game, but all those plays are shooting plays, which just strengthen the idea Bulls want him to become pure shooter. They don't run pick&pop's for him, where he is either big or small (he is still Bulls most efficient ball handler in pick&rolls) and never had. They don't run post plays for him (event thought he is most efficient scorer on post) and never had.

So all the claims Bulls wanted Lauri to do this or that I just don't see it. How Bulls have treated Lauri is the same way you treat your guards. Create something in the perimeter without any help from team, but Lauri is not a guard. But even guards with Bulls get way more help than Lauri. They get bigs to do pick&rolls with them all the time. Lauri doesn't get this help. So how Bulls have 'developed' Lauri look like they got exactly the player they wanted from the beginning. Stretch-4 that doesn't do anything else. So from Bulls point of view this is a successful project. Again fans might have wanted him to become more and can't really blame them, but fans don't decide where he is on the court, he doesn't decide where he is on the court, coaching staff and FO make the decision. Only top 50 players in the NBA have the power to dictate how teams will use them, rest of the players, including Lauri, do what the coaches tell them to do. If you start soloing then coach just benches you and there you will sit rest of your career.

So if he goes to other team which use him as a pick setter as much Bulls uses Vuc that would easily mean 4-6 points per game more. If other team would use him as a midrange/post player then it would be easily 4-6 points more. This is based on this years efficiencies on those situations. Or maybe the other team have noticed that Lauri is most efficient pick&roll ball handler with Bulls in these 4 years and gives him that role. Or maybe he goes to another team and sucks, but you or me or anyone else can't know how good player is in a certain role if you never give him the opportunity to be that player. Bulls have proven Lauri can't create his shot in the perimeter, but maybe that was a stupid hope in the first place. There are very few bigs who actually can do that.

To be fair to Lauri, the Bulls have tried him in a number of different roles over the years. At one point last season, IMO, they wanted to try him as a C...in a similar role to Vuc now, but Lauri lacked a post game (like any kind of back to the basket skill whatsoever). I'm sure they hoped he'd be a good complement to Vuc at PF right after the trade, but while Lauri's defense has improved this season, we really need a rim protector next to Vuc...which isn't Lauri. Using Lauri at SF, honestly, should have been tried sooner - I think it plays to Lauri's strengths, and if we keep him, that's how I'd use him. He is primarily a perimeter player who shoots 3's a good (but not elite) clip, and he is a decent cutter and, now, an average defender.

The issue, IMO, is that he is good at most things, but not elite at anything. Which is fine, except, for $15M+, you want more to hang your hat on.

[Almost Retired]

I like the kid. I had high hopes for him when we drafted him. I had these Dirk Nowitzky visions dancing in my head. But whether it was the coaching merry-go-round, the nagging injuries, getting married and becoming a father....he never made any really meaningful strides since his rookie year. He's a NBA Journeyman. That's it. So far. Maybe another team can unleash the "inner Lauri". But the Bulls haven't pulled it off. You can get Lauri levels of production at half the price with Bobby Portis, and almost the same at 1/4 of the price with Noah Vonleh. A sign and trade may be our best option. At least get something for Lauri. He's not a bad kid. He deserves a shot to be whatever it is he can develop to be...somewhere else. He might even be better off being "the man" on some Euro squad, being closer to home. That style of basketball, which is less physical than the NBA, might be more suited to Lauri's physical makeup and passive playing style.

[kodo]

FWIW, Lauri has improved to be a 96th percentile post player. He just doesn't get very many opportunities. His 68% eFG in the post is insane, better than a lot of guys like Embiid.

He was in the 10th percentile last year. He has worked on his game in this area, and the improvements were more than real.

There are big caveats, he only posts up mismatches, and he needs the ball under the basket. But since teams like to put small guys on him it's the logical evolution of his game.

I think when he's gone, he's going to look a lot better on another team. Much like Cam Payne, Wendell, and Gafford. Guys who are roleplayers often look bad trying to be the core of a team, but show their true value when on a different team where they have to just do a limited role efficiently. Lauri if anything is that, high efficiency. 77th percentile spot up shooter, 96th percentile post up. But limited in both roles because he doesn't create his own shot. His 2 shot attempts in the Detroit game are an example of when efficiency can be useless if there's no shot creation.

[Hugi Mancura]

He has almost no ability to create his own offense. Vuc basically has the skill set we we were hoping Lauri would develop. Which is probably why they traded for him and gave up on Lauri. Would have been better for us if Lauri had actually developed since he is 7 years younger, but he didn’t and don’t think we will anywhere else either. If he finds himself on team with an elite passer that can get 4 or 5 layups a game he might do better but it will because that player made him better. He doesn’t have the drive to be great and don’t believe he puts in work in the off-season either. He has the exact same skill set he came into the league with. He has gotten better at taking advantage of mismatches in the paint this season, but that is about it in 4 years.

I have disagree with this. Bulls never wanted Lauri to become Vuc. All they wanted was a stretch shooter, nothing more, nothing less. Fans might have wanted Lauri to become more, but FO doesn't care about fans opinions.

Vuc's game is also a very good example how you develop your bigs. You run them pick&roll/pops all the time and make him play post. Bulls pretty much run 20 picks with Vuc in one period. With Lauri it has always been Lopez and WCJ who get the honor, so Bulls have been more concerned about teaching Lopez or WCJ to become better pick&roll/pop players than Lauri. So Bulls have never wanted Lauri to develop pick game.

I know Lauri wasn't great post player, but if you want to develop your young players to play on the post, you effing put him on the post. Best way to learn post play is by playing in the post. This year Lauri has been more efficient than Vuc, but it doesn't matter anymore, because most likely from the beginning of the season Bulls current FO wanted Lauri gone, so it doesn't matter what he does (unless he would have turned to superstar). Lauri's skill set as every shooting big who doesn't have huge strength base is better suited to start facing the basket in the midrange. Same way as AD does majority of his time. Not low post back towards the basket like Vuc is. You would use shooting and mobility to drive past your defender. Shoot over defender or shoot fake and drive. Bulls never really used Lauri in the post or in the midrange. I know haters gonna say he never was good, but you also forget you learn while doing it and there is not a better place to learn than a real game.

So Bulls run couple plays for Lauri in a game, but all those plays are shooting plays, which just strengthen the idea Bulls want him to become pure shooter. They don't run pick&pop's for him, where he is either big or small (he is still Bulls most efficient ball handler in pick&rolls) and never had. They don't run post plays for him (event thought he is most efficient scorer on post) and never had.

So all the claims Bulls wanted Lauri to do this or that I just don't see it. How Bulls have treated Lauri is the same way you treat your guards. Create something in the perimeter without any help from team, but Lauri is not a guard. But even guards with Bulls get way more help than Lauri. They get bigs to do pick&rolls with them all the time. Lauri doesn't get this help. So how Bulls have 'developed' Lauri look like they got exactly the player they wanted from the beginning. Stretch-4 that doesn't do anything else. So from Bulls point of view this is a successful project. Again fans might have wanted him to become more and can't really blame them, but fans don't decide where he is on the court, he doesn't decide where he is on the court, coaching staff and FO make the decision. Only top 50 players in the NBA have the power to dictate how teams will use them, rest of the players, including Lauri, do what the coaches tell them to do. If you start soloing then coach just benches you and there you will sit rest of your career.

So if he goes to other team which use him as a pick setter as much Bulls uses Vuc that would easily mean 4-6 points per game more. If other team would use him as a midrange/post player then it would be easily 4-6 points more. This is based on this years efficiencies on those situations. Or maybe the other team have noticed that Lauri is most efficient pick&roll ball handler with Bulls in these 4 years and gives him that role. Or maybe he goes to another team and sucks, but you or me or anyone else can't know how good player is in a certain role if you never give him the opportunity to be that player. Bulls have proven Lauri can't create his shot in the perimeter, but maybe that was a stupid hope in the first place. There are very few bigs who actually can do that.

To be fair to Lauri, the Bulls have tried him in a number of different roles over the years. At one point last season, IMO, they wanted to try him as a C...in a similar role to Vuc now, but Lauri lacked a post game (like any kind of back to the basket skill whatsoever). I'm sure they hoped he'd be a good complement to Vuc at PF right after the trade, but while Lauri's defense has improved this season, we really need a rim protector next to Vuc...which isn't Lauri. Using Lauri at SF, honestly, should have been tried sooner - I think it plays to Lauri's strengths, and if we keep him, that's how I'd use him. He is primarily a perimeter player who shoots 3's a good (but not elite) clip, and he is a decent cutter and, now, an average defender.

The issue, IMO, is that he is good at most things, but not elite at anything. Which is fine, except, for $15M+, you want more to hang your hat on.

Nice they tried Lauri as center, but honestly I never understood why. For me on the second I saw him play it was obvious he couldn't be a center. His muscular structure is similar to Durant. Those people will never be Embiid strong and thus Lauri type of players could never defend players like Embiid. He maybe could handle himself against thinner centers, but against strong ones? No hope, so trying to make him a center was a dead idea from the start. I do understand the benefits of having shooting center, but what is important in today's basketball for bigs is their ability to defend fast guards or at least slow them down. Teams uses pick&rolls in playoffs to get the defender they want against their star and if your big is slow and can't defend in perimeter believe me that is the player who will be there defending the guard. Making big's slower is just as idiotic idea as having Lauri as center.

Lauri was a combo forward when he came to NBA, but it seems Bulls FO just didn't have the ability to think outside the box. Having a 7 foot tall SF is something they couldn't understand, because if you 7 footer you must be a center. No matter what that player have done in earlier years. Players in younger year tend to trend towards what is natural for them and what is their strength (Dunn as defensive guard, low court vision. Coby as shooting guard and scorer, low playmaking IQ). Also they get drafted high because of these skills, but for some reason teams who drafts them for these skill just ignores those skills and want them to do something else. Bulls ain't the only one who is bad at this. Kings are famous for destroying young players as is Minnesota. I feel bad for all the players who get drafted to these teams. And then I remember they earn more money than me and I'm not so sorry anymore. But getting drafted to these team probably costs them couple tens of millions of career earnings.

Hey, lets draft Shaq O'Neal and make him a stretch-4, what a great idea...

But yes he doesn't fit well with Vuc. You need an extremely good defender next to him or teams will exploit his defense in playoffs. They probably will exploit it no matter who are the other Bulls players. In playoffs teams will find your weakness (or at least good teams will) and will exploit it forever.

[sco]

I have disagree with this. Bulls never wanted Lauri to become Vuc. All they wanted was a stretch shooter, nothing more, nothing less. Fans might have wanted Lauri to become more, but FO doesn't care about fans opinions.

Vuc's game is also a very good example how you develop your bigs. You run them pick&roll/pops all the time and make him play post. Bulls pretty much run 20 picks with Vuc in one period. With Lauri it has always been Lopez and WCJ who get the honor, so Bulls have been more concerned about teaching Lopez or WCJ to become better pick&roll/pop players than Lauri. So Bulls have never wanted Lauri to develop pick game.

I know Lauri wasn't great post player, but if you want to develop your young players to play on the post, you effing put him on the post. Best way to learn post play is by playing in the post. This year Lauri has been more efficient than Vuc, but it doesn't matter anymore, because most likely from the beginning of the season Bulls current FO wanted Lauri gone, so it doesn't matter what he does (unless he would have turned to superstar). Lauri's skill set as every shooting big who doesn't have huge strength base is better suited to start facing the basket in the midrange. Same way as AD does majority of his time. Not low post back towards the basket like Vuc is. You would use shooting and mobility to drive past your defender. Shoot over defender or shoot fake and drive. Bulls never really used Lauri in the post or in the midrange. I know haters gonna say he never was good, but you also forget you learn while doing it and there is not a better place to learn than a real game.

So Bulls run couple plays for Lauri in a game, but all those plays are shooting plays, which just strengthen the idea Bulls want him to become pure shooter. They don't run pick&pop's for him, where he is either big or small (he is still Bulls most efficient ball handler in pick&rolls) and never had. They don't run post plays for him (event thought he is most efficient scorer on post) and never had.

So all the claims Bulls wanted Lauri to do this or that I just don't see it. How Bulls have treated Lauri is the same way you treat your guards. Create something in the perimeter without any help from team, but Lauri is not a guard. But even guards with Bulls get way more help than Lauri. They get bigs to do pick&rolls with them all the time. Lauri doesn't get this help. So how Bulls have 'developed' Lauri look like they got exactly the player they wanted from the beginning. Stretch-4 that doesn't do anything else. So from Bulls point of view this is a successful project. Again fans might have wanted him to become more and can't really blame them, but fans don't decide where he is on the court, he doesn't decide where he is on the court, coaching staff and FO make the decision. Only top 50 players in the NBA have the power to dictate how teams will use them, rest of the players, including Lauri, do what the coaches tell them to do. If you start soloing then coach just benches you and there you will sit rest of your career.

So if he goes to other team which use him as a pick setter as much Bulls uses Vuc that would easily mean 4-6 points per game more. If other team would use him as a midrange/post player then it would be easily 4-6 points more. This is based on this years efficiencies on those situations. Or maybe the other team have noticed that Lauri is most efficient pick&roll ball handler with Bulls in these 4 years and gives him that role. Or maybe he goes to another team and sucks, but you or me or anyone else can't know how good player is in a certain role if you never give him the opportunity to be that player. Bulls have proven Lauri can't create his shot in the perimeter, but maybe that was a stupid hope in the first place. There are very few bigs who actually can do that.

To be fair to Lauri, the Bulls have tried him in a number of different roles over the years. At one point last season, IMO, they wanted to try him as a C...in a similar role to Vuc now, but Lauri lacked a post game (like any kind of back to the basket skill whatsoever). I'm sure they hoped he'd be a good complement to Vuc at PF right after the trade, but while Lauri's defense has improved this season, we really need a rim protector next to Vuc...which isn't Lauri. Using Lauri at SF, honestly, should have been tried sooner - I think it plays to Lauri's strengths, and if we keep him, that's how I'd use him. He is primarily a perimeter player who shoots 3's a good (but not elite) clip, and he is a decent cutter and, now, an average defender.

The issue, IMO, is that he is good at most things, but not elite at anything. Which is fine, except, for $15M+, you want more to hang your hat on.

Nice they tried Lauri as center, but honestly I never understood why. For me on the second I saw him play it was obvious he couldn't be a center. His muscular structure is similar to Durant. Those people will never be Embiid strong and thus Lauri type of players could never defend players like Embiid. He maybe could handle himself against thinner centers, but against strong ones? No hope, so trying to make him a center was a dead idea from the start. I do understand the benefits of having shooting center, but what is important in today's basketball for bigs is their ability to defend fast guards or at least slow them down. Teams uses pick&rolls in playoffs to get the defender they want against their star and if your big is slow and can't defend in perimeter believe me that is the player who will be there defending the guard. Making big's slower is just as idiotic idea as having Lauri as center.

Lauri was a combo forward when he came to NBA, but it seems Bulls FO just didn't have the ability to think outside the box. Having a 7 foot tall SF is something they couldn't understand, because if you 7 footer you must be a center. No matter what that player have done in earlier years. Players in younger year tend to trend towards what is natural for them and what is their strength (Dunn as defensive guard, low court vision. Coby as shooting guard and scorer, low playmaking IQ). Also they get drafted high because of these skills, but for some reason teams who drafts them for these skill just ignores those skills and want them to do something else. Bulls ain't the only one who is bad at this. Kings are famous for destroying young players as is Minnesota. I feel bad for all the players who get drafted to these teams. And then I remember they earn more money than me and I'm not so sorry anymore. But getting drafted to these team probably costs them couple tens of millions of career earnings.

Hey, lets draft Shaq O'Neal and make him a stretch-4, what a great idea...

But yes he doesn't fit well with Vuc. You need an extremely good defender next to him or teams will exploit his defense in playoffs. They probably will exploit it no matter who are the other Bulls players. In playoffs teams will find your weakness (or at least good teams will) and will exploit it forever.

Totally agree that the right move (that I said from his rookie year) is that he should be develop his game/body like Durant. The thing that many 7 footers did was to lie about their height so they are never asked to be C's. It's silly, but it seemed to work for guys like Garnett, Duncan and Giannis and Durant.

[coldfish]

Spoiler:

lauri had his jay cutler moments.
if he cares about the game, i would think he can be an offensive option that almost rivaled zach.
If the passion issues werent an issue, billzo couid be dead wrong about not starting him.

He has almost no ability to create his own offense. Vuc basically has the skill set we we were hoping Lauri would develop. Which is probably why they traded for him and gave up on Lauri. Would have been better for us if Lauri had actually developed since he is 7 years younger, but he didn’t and don’t think we will anywhere else either. If he finds himself on team with an elite passer that can get 4 or 5 layups a game he might do better but it will because that player made him better. He doesn’t have the drive to be great and don’t believe he puts in work in the off-season either. He has the exact same skill set he came into the league with. He has gotten better at taking advantage of mismatches in the paint this season, but that is about it in 4 years.

I have disagree with this. Bulls never wanted Lauri to become Vuc. All they wanted was a stretch shooter, nothing more, nothing less. Fans might have wanted Lauri to become more, but FO doesn't care about fans opinions.

Vuc's game is also a very good example how you develop your bigs. You run them pick&roll/pops all the time and make him play post. Bulls pretty much run 20 picks with Vuc in one period. With Lauri it has always been Lopez and WCJ who get the honor, so Bulls have been more concerned about teaching Lopez or WCJ to become better pick&roll/pop players than Lauri. So Bulls have never wanted Lauri to develop pick game.

I know Lauri wasn't great post player, but if you want to develop your young players to play on the post, you effing put him on the post. Best way to learn post play is by playing in the post. This year Lauri has been more efficient than Vuc, but it doesn't matter anymore, because most likely from the beginning of the season Bulls current FO wanted Lauri gone, so it doesn't matter what he does (unless he would have turned to superstar). Lauri's skill set as every shooting big who doesn't have huge strength base is better suited to start facing the basket in the midrange. Same way as AD does majority of his time. Not low post back towards the basket like Vuc is. You would use shooting and mobility to drive past your defender. Shoot over defender or shoot fake and drive. Bulls never really used Lauri in the post or in the midrange. I know haters gonna say he never was good, but you also forget you learn while doing it and there is not a better place to learn than a real game.

So Bulls run couple plays for Lauri in a game, but all those plays are shooting plays, which just strengthen the idea Bulls want him to become pure shooter. They don't run pick&pop's for him, where he is either big or small (he is still Bulls most efficient ball handler in pick&rolls) and never had. They don't run post plays for him (event thought he is most efficient scorer on post) and never had.

So all the claims Bulls wanted Lauri to do this or that I just don't see it. How Bulls have treated Lauri is the same way you treat your guards. Create something in the perimeter without any help from team, but Lauri is not a guard. But even guards with Bulls get way more help than Lauri. They get bigs to do pick&rolls with them all the time. Lauri doesn't get this help. So how Bulls have 'developed' Lauri look like they got exactly the player they wanted from the beginning. Stretch-4 that doesn't do anything else. So from Bulls point of view this is a successful project. Again fans might have wanted him to become more and can't really blame them, but fans don't decide where he is on the court, he doesn't decide where he is on the court, coaching staff and FO make the decision. Only top 50 players in the NBA have the power to dictate how teams will use them, rest of the players, including Lauri, do what the coaches tell them to do. If you start soloing then coach just benches you and there you will sit rest of your career.

So if he goes to other team which use him as a pick setter as much Bulls uses Vuc that would easily mean 4-6 points per game more. If other team would use him as a midrange/post player then it would be easily 4-6 points more. This is based on this years efficiencies on those situations. Or maybe the other team have noticed that Lauri is most efficient pick&roll ball handler with Bulls in these 4 years and gives him that role. Or maybe he goes to another team and sucks, but you or me or anyone else can't know how good player is in a certain role if you never give him the opportunity to be that player. Bulls have proven Lauri can't create his shot in the perimeter, but maybe that was a stupid hope in the first place. There are very few bigs who actually can do that.

For the most part, the Bulls don't run plays. No NBA team does. The Bulls run a motion offense with 3 roles:
- Guard. These two start at the elbows and run weave action or PnR with the center.
- Center. This guy stands at the top of the key and runs the offense. He sets picks, does dribble hand offs, swings the ball, runs pick and rolls and drops into the post.
- Forward. These two hang out on the baseline. They have the ability to cut and do some weave action.

Each player has a ton of freedom for what they can do. When a pick and roll happens, the players involved read the defense and either pop, or drive or roll or drop into the post as they see fit. BD isn't telling the guys "hey, roll now!" The forwards, which Lauri has been for the most part of the year, are the least involved. With that said, back when OPJ was here he was great at staying involved, finding lanes and getting open. All of that movement was his choice.

Lauri did get limited time at the center. It really didn't go well. He just wanted to pick and pop and never did the other stuff for the role. He lost the opportunity rather quickly.

There is one player the team has run plays for this year but its not frequent. Lauri. They have this double screen thing that they call for him. I haven't seen it lately but yes, Lauri is the only person who has a play explicitly for him.

On one hand, Lauri wasn't given a huge opportunity under BD. OTOH, he didn't make much of the opportunity he was given and in the role he is assigned, he *chooses* to not move around much. He seems to want to be the guy that his fans are complaining about him being used as.

I will note that Pat also chooses to not move around much and has been given a much longer leash. Those games where Pat is active and involved isn't because the coach changed the offense. Its just that Pat had the energy to move that day.

[MGB8]

Spoiler:

He has almost no ability to create his own offense. Vuc basically has the skill set we we were hoping Lauri would develop. Which is probably why they traded for him and gave up on Lauri. Would have been better for us if Lauri had actually developed since he is 7 years younger, but he didn’t and don’t think we will anywhere else either. If he finds himself on team with an elite passer that can get 4 or 5 layups a game he might do better but it will because that player made him better. He doesn’t have the drive to be great and don’t believe he puts in work in the off-season either. He has the exact same skill set he came into the league with. He has gotten better at taking advantage of mismatches in the paint this season, but that is about it in 4 years.

I have disagree with this. Bulls never wanted Lauri to become Vuc. All they wanted was a stretch shooter, nothing more, nothing less. Fans might have wanted Lauri to become more, but FO doesn't care about fans opinions.

Vuc's game is also a very good example how you develop your bigs. You run them pick&roll/pops all the time and make him play post. Bulls pretty much run 20 picks with Vuc in one period. With Lauri it has always been Lopez and WCJ who get the honor, so Bulls have been more concerned about teaching Lopez or WCJ to become better pick&roll/pop players than Lauri. So Bulls have never wanted Lauri to develop pick game.

I know Lauri wasn't great post player, but if you want to develop your young players to play on the post, you effing put him on the post. Best way to learn post play is by playing in the post. This year Lauri has been more efficient than Vuc, but it doesn't matter anymore, because most likely from the beginning of the season Bulls current FO wanted Lauri gone, so it doesn't matter what he does (unless he would have turned to superstar). Lauri's skill set as every shooting big who doesn't have huge strength base is better suited to start facing the basket in the midrange. Same way as AD does majority of his time. Not low post back towards the basket like Vuc is. You would use shooting and mobility to drive past your defender. Shoot over defender or shoot fake and drive. Bulls never really used Lauri in the post or in the midrange. I know haters gonna say he never was good, but you also forget you learn while doing it and there is not a better place to learn than a real game.

So Bulls run couple plays for Lauri in a game, but all those plays are shooting plays, which just strengthen the idea Bulls want him to become pure shooter. They don't run pick&pop's for him, where he is either big or small (he is still Bulls most efficient ball handler in pick&rolls) and never had. They don't run post plays for him (event thought he is most efficient scorer on post) and never had.

So all the claims Bulls wanted Lauri to do this or that I just don't see it. How Bulls have treated Lauri is the same way you treat your guards. Create something in the perimeter without any help from team, but Lauri is not a guard. But even guards with Bulls get way more help than Lauri. They get bigs to do pick&rolls with them all the time. Lauri doesn't get this help. So how Bulls have 'developed' Lauri look like they got exactly the player they wanted from the beginning. Stretch-4 that doesn't do anything else. So from Bulls point of view this is a successful project. Again fans might have wanted him to become more and can't really blame them, but fans don't decide where he is on the court, he doesn't decide where he is on the court, coaching staff and FO make the decision. Only top 50 players in the NBA have the power to dictate how teams will use them, rest of the players, including Lauri, do what the coaches tell them to do. If you start soloing then coach just benches you and there you will sit rest of your career.

So if he goes to other team which use him as a pick setter as much Bulls uses Vuc that would easily mean 4-6 points per game more. If other team would use him as a midrange/post player then it would be easily 4-6 points more. This is based on this years efficiencies on those situations. Or maybe the other team have noticed that Lauri is most efficient pick&roll ball handler with Bulls in these 4 years and gives him that role. Or maybe he goes to another team and sucks, but you or me or anyone else can't know how good player is in a certain role if you never give him the opportunity to be that player. Bulls have proven Lauri can't create his shot in the perimeter, but maybe that was a stupid hope in the first place. There are very few bigs who actually can do that.

For the most part, the Bulls don't run plays. No NBA team does. The Bulls run a motion offense with 3 roles:
- Guard. These two start at the elbows and run weave action or PnR with the center.
- Center. This guy stands at the top of the key and runs the offense. He sets picks, does dribble hand offs, swings the ball, runs pick and rolls and drops into the post.
- Forward. These two hang out on the baseline. They have the ability to cut and do some weave action.

Each player has a ton of freedom for what they can do. When a pick and roll happens, the players involved read the defense and either pop, or drive or roll or drop into the post as they see fit. BD isn't telling the guys "hey, roll now!" The forwards, which Lauri has been for the most part of the year, are the least involved. With that said, back when OPJ was here he was great at staying involved, finding lanes and getting open. All of that movement was his choice.

Lauri did get limited time at the center. It really didn't go well. He just wanted to pick and pop and never did the other stuff for the role. He lost the opportunity rather quickly.

There is one player the team has run plays for this year but its not frequent. Lauri. They have this double screen thing that they call for him. I haven't seen it lately but yes, Lauri is the only person who has a play explicitly for him.

On one hand, Lauri wasn't given a huge opportunity under BD. OTOH, he didn't make much of the opportunity he was given and in the role he is assigned, he *chooses* to not move around much. He seems to want to be the guy that his fans are complaining about him being used as.

I will note that Pat also chooses to not move around much and has been given a much longer leash. Those games where Pat is active and involved isn't because the coach changed the offense. Its just that Pat had the energy to move that day.

I think that's a pretty fair assessment. And I think it gets to why folks who love Lauri don't feel he is used correctly - and I sympathize with that argument to some degree. I think in a more structured offensive environment he could be more productive on offense - and I think the increased offensive touches designed for him would probably energize his defense somewhat.

That said, I'm not sure how many NBA teams really run really structured offenses these days. A second way to maximize him would be to pair him with a very traditional PG and work on a two man game between them (or a 3 man game involving one other player and various on and off-ball screen and movement options). There are more teams with those sorts of ball dominant true PGs around --- but even then those two man games are usually just a small subset of what the teams runs - you don't see a lot of "Malone to Stockton" or even "Kidd/Nash to Amare" anymore...

[MrSparkle]

The goal with Lauri or any shooting forward/big man is simple:

(a) Make them comfortable (high, consistent minutes- possibly starting job).
(b) Mask them on defense at all times.
(c) Give them a very high volume of 3P looks.

Works for Duncan, McDermott, Ingles, Harris, Bertans - worked for Korver, Redick.

Rest of his game can improve after he really maximizes that role. The Bulls have obviously been a horrendous fit, because they had defensive liabilities all around the roster who couldn't mask his defense, tons of 3P shooters to share shots with, and a good bit of competition for minutes. He'd be fine in UTA, SAS, PHI, ATL, etc.

Again, not sure why we are still debating about building around the guy. He is clearly a plug-and-play target for a team that needs spacing: a Gobert or Bam C with defensive guards and wings like Butler, Murray, Simmons, Lowry, etc. My hunch is he ends up in San Antonio.