Butler calls out Hoiberg / Update pg 33: KC releases negative report on Jimmy

[Dajody10]

If all Butler cared about was himself and being selfish, I don't think he would be speaking up. He wants to win.

Because his own stock is at an all time high, his stats are great. Neil and Stacey hammer on that he is the best player on the team all the time, and national guys talk about it too.

While the offense is broke, Butler has leeway to take it on his own whenever he wants and does so. So I really don't see the angle Butler is just out for himself. He already bet on himself and won, what would he have to gain by bellyaching, even more iso's?

Doesn't make sense. He just wants to win and is frustrated and has expressed it, perhaps in a last resort way, which is probably not going to be helpful. But who knows, maybe it will be too. Maybe Fred will now feel like Jimmy has given him the green light, as a rookie coach, to get tougher and rip in to guys and he has been holding back because he doesnt' feel he has the cred yet.

What do they say about Pop, what he does works because he criticizes the best players on his team - Duncan, Tony, Kawhi, and the role players fall in line.

Well Butler has just invited Fred to rip him personally, and in doing so, by ripping the best player, it also means everyone else can be ripped.

Could be a pretty clever move by Jimmy actually, if this gets taken internally now and doesn't continue to snowball.

This would be a great move by Butler...one that could be done in a simple conversation in Hoiberg's office. "Fred, I want you to know that I have your back if you coach all of us, myself included, harder".

We don't live in a Utopian world - sometimes you have to ruffle some feathers to make change happen.

[Rerisen]

Last year we blamed the coach. This year we will blame the players. Even our best players.

Eventually the responsibility is going to have to roll around to everyone in the organization.

[Stratmaster]

This would be a great move by Butler...one that could be done in a simple conversation in Hoiberg's office. "Fred, I want you to know that I have your back if you coach all of us, myself included, harder".

I do wonder if he might have taken that step already, to no avail. We have no way to know.

If he hasn't, he should have.

But some of the quotes lingering out there, makes me think this isn't some sudden blow up or revelation and things have been percolating for a while.

Agreed. If he wants to go over the coaches head...that would be Forman or Paxson. Not ESPN.

[Dajody10]

Last year we blamed the coach. This year we will blame the players. Even our best players.

Eventually the responsibility is going to have to roll around to everyone in the organization.

As I've said numerous times on this thread, this entire organization is in need of a nuclear bomb.

[Stratmaster]

Last year we blamed the coach. This year we will blame the players. Even our best players.

Eventually the responsibility is going to have to roll around to everyone in the organization.

Blame them for what?

I don't blame Butler for the Bulls not having a better record. I blame him for turning into a prima donna and throwing his teammates and coach under the bus while not practicing what he preaches. I will only blame him for the team's performance if there is an obvious downturn in performance related to the drama he is causing. I don't expect that, and even if it were true it would be impossible to say it for certain.

[musiqsoulchild]

Well, Fleet:
Jimmy just told Doug, Bobby, Snell and Niko that it's OK to challenge your coach through the media.

I highly doubt that's the right approach even from a veteran standpoint.

If all those guys become allstars and team leaders. Sure, feel free to call out Hoiberg.

That's not how any system runs.

There is no need to call out in the media. There is an open door policy that players can lean on and air their grievances.

1) To Fred first. If that fails,
2) To the team captains. If that fails,
3) To Gar Forman. If that fails,
4) Through their agent to John Paxson. If that fails,
5) To Michael Reinsdorf.

When you follow protocol it gives you the LEVERAGE. People in power are then gonna assume that the issue is with Fred because Jimmy took the correct route.

Jimmy didn't take the correct route here - so the issue will by default be attributed to him. The message is lost if the messenger is an annoying pain.

Remember the guy who gets killed and thrown into a well by the Spartans in the movie 300? It's not the message that got his ass killed. It's how he delivered it.

[Rerisen]

Last year we blamed the coach. This year we will blame the players. Even our best players.

Eventually the responsibility is going to have to roll around to everyone in the organization.

Blame them for what?

I don't blame Butler for the Bulls not having a better record. I blame him for turning into a prima donna and throwing his teammates and coach under the bus while not practicing what he preaches. I will only blame him for the team's performance if there is an obvious downturn in performance related to the drama he is causing. I don't expect that, and even if it were true it would be impossible to say it for certain.

Is Butler wrong to assert the team isn't performing well enough?

If we are on track, well its the same track we were on last year success wise, and we fired the coach at the end of last year. So if it wasn't good enough then, why is it good enough now?

[R3AL1TY]

With the current roster, it will be very difficult to blend slow pace, iso ball that will favor certain players while trying to be an up-tempo, ball movement offense to favor other players. It will only work if most of the players are productive.

[Rerisen]

I heard Fred was a wonderful communicator. That's part of why we fired the last guy, a mean grinch!

If Butler doesn't feel he can talk to Fred something went wrong in him failing to get his message across.

[RebuildaBulls]

Hoiberg has proven something, this team is more overrated than we thought.

Since they cant play in systems, They are just going to try to go in out-talent the league, which is what they did last year and lost.

This team needs a huge fix and I don't even care about any of the players, probably other than Portis who is the only new guy really

[musiqsoulchild]

Last year we blamed the coach. This year we will blame the players. Even our best players.

Eventually the responsibility is going to have to roll around to everyone in the organization.

Blame them for what?

I don't blame Butler for the Bulls not having a better record. I blame him for turning into a prima donna and throwing his teammates and coach under the bus while not practicing what he preaches. I will only blame him for the team's performance if there is an obvious downturn in performance related to the drama he is causing. I don't expect that, and even if it were true it would be impossible to say it for certain.

Is Butler wrong to assert the team isn't performing well enough?

If we are on track, well its the same track we were on last year success wise, and we fired the coach at the end of last year. So if it wasn't good enough then, why is it good enough now?

Because last year was the culmination of 5 seasons of Thibs.

And because he was a prick to his colleagues and his boss.

[MrSparkle]

I'm gonna throw my 2c in again...

Butler is a bad ass, and his comments are 110% welcome by me. This team needs a kick in the ass, and it's obvious that no one in the FO or coaching staff can fill the Thibs void, so thank god Jimmy has taken it upon himself to make this STUPID, STUPID ROSTER realize that you can't win games by dogging it.

#1. We underachieved last year. Yes, we underachieved. Never mind our lack of talent at certain spots, we underachieved, and it still pisses me off, because we had a golden ticket to the finals and decided to piss the man-pants instead of pulling them up. We were playing a Cavs team with JR Smith suspended 2 games, Kyrie playing on a broken knee-cap, Shumpert dealing with ankle/knee issues, Love out for the whole playoffs... I mean, come on... It's like setting Street Fighter handicap to -5 and still losing. I understand that Lebron is a beast, but we were 100% healthy.

#2. There is something systematically wrong with this team. On a well-coached team with good chemistry, even your 12th men come in and make good plays. Scalabrine comes to mind. On this roster, we have some "talent" but they look like they're playing on 2nd gear. Why the **** are Moore, Snell, Niko and Bairstow not playing like their pay-check/career depends on it? I'll tell you why. Because the FO made it clear that Thibs was being a d*ck, and that Fred will boost everyone's confidence to play better, but that's not how it works in sports. I bet you that the GSW locker-room was rough and rowdy. Dray Green, Bogut, Iguadala, these aren't push-overs that need pats on the back to get going. Curry and Klay earned their respect as shooters, but the rest of that roster is feisty.

I'm tired of the Bulls FO/Media making this team seem like a rosy bunch of good-guys, when it's obvious Noah is getting hammered on off-nights, Rose is gang banging chicks on the weekend, and god knows what the rest of the 'quiet' guys do. These dudes make MILLIONS OF DOLLARS a year, more money in a year than we make in a decade. Coddling these players was a joke from the get-go, and that's what pissed me off about the Thibs hate. I disliked his substitution/timeout patterns, but don't give me any BS about him being too hard on the players. His problem was he wasn't flexible, but the other problem was that the FO sabotaged his roster and gave him a bunch of scrubs after the top-5 guys.

I welcome this Butler with 2 thumbs up. For anybody bringing up Kobe 07 / Lebron 10 .... So sorry that Kobe, a championship MVP player gave up on Smush Parker, Kwame Brown, Lamar Odom and rookie Andrew Bynum. Boy did the rest of those guys turn out to be great, hard-working personalities after they left Phil/Kobe's structure. Same with the Cavs. Man did that roster kick arse once Lebron left... Ah yes, Big Z, Ben Wallace, Mo Williams, bunch of studs right there. Those 4 straight top-3 picks sure turned it all around.

Jimmy has the attitude of a champion right now, and I love it. But I guess everybody else wants to see a 3-year 'soft' rebuild, so that Doug McDermott and Nikola Mirotic can get us a championship in 2018 after we entice Kevin Durant and Anthony Davis to sign here in free agency, since that's what the Bulls FO is known to do. Have fantastic free agency campaigns and pick up their most coveted stars, while their mid/late-1st picks develop into superstars.

Oh wait, Jimmy did develop into a borderline superstar. Ah, he's too intense. Let's trade him for Cousins, who will do a better job leading the team. LOL

[Ajosu]

If all Butler cared about was himself and being selfish, I don't think he would be speaking up. He wants to win.

Because his own stock is at an all time high, his stats are great. Neil and Stacey hammer on that he is the best player on the team all the time, and national guys talk about it too.

While the offense is broke, Butler has leeway to take it on his own whenever he wants and does so. So I really don't see the angle Butler is just out for himself. He already bet on himself and won, what would he have to gain by bellyaching, even more iso's?

Doesn't make sense. He just wants to win and is frustrated and has expressed it, perhaps in a last resort way, which is probably not going to be helpful. But who knows, maybe it will be too. Maybe Fred will now feel like Jimmy has given him the green light, as a rookie coach, to get tougher and rip in to guys and he has been holding back because he doesnt' feel he has the cred yet.

What do they say about Pop, what he does works because he criticizes the best players on his team - Duncan, Tony, Kawhi, and the role players fall in line.

Well Butler has just invited Fred to rip him personally, and in doing so, by ripping the best player, it also means everyone else can be ripped.

Could be a pretty clever move by Jimmy actually, if this gets taken internally now and doesn't continue to snowball.

This would be a great move by Butler...one that could be done in a simple conversation in Hoiberg's office. "Fred, I want you to know that I have your back if you coach all of us, myself included, harder".

Agreed. This was emotional, not clever. Will be interesting to see how Butler responds if/when Fred lays down the law starting with him. Butler has a problem with players not doing what the coach says? He should lead by example by doing his job (on the court), supporting the coach (not undermining him), and getting in player's faces if he is so moved by their failure to do their job.

[Rerisen]

Because last year was the culmination of 5 seasons of Thibs.

And because he was a prick to his colleagues and his boss.

MJ was a prick too.

I'd rather win more.

Not that Thibs did that last year, but just about as well as we are now, and he had more injuries and 2 rookies, who should be further progressed.

JVG said its a better team than last year. But yet not showing it.

[Rerisen]

If all Butler cared about was himself and being selfish, I don't think he would be speaking up. He wants to win.

Because his own stock is at an all time high, his stats are great. Neil and Stacey hammer on that he is the best player on the team all the time, and national guys talk about it too.

While the offense is broke, Butler has leeway to take it on his own whenever he wants and does so. So I really don't see the angle Butler is just out for himself. He already bet on himself and won, what would he have to gain by bellyaching, even more iso's?

Doesn't make sense. He just wants to win and is frustrated and has expressed it, perhaps in a last resort way, which is probably not going to be helpful. But who knows, maybe it will be too. Maybe Fred will now feel like Jimmy has given him the green light, as a rookie coach, to get tougher and rip in to guys and he has been holding back because he doesnt' feel he has the cred yet.

What do they say about Pop, what he does works because he criticizes the best players on his team - Duncan, Tony, Kawhi, and the role players fall in line.

Well Butler has just invited Fred to rip him personally, and in doing so, by ripping the best player, it also means everyone else can be ripped.

Could be a pretty clever move by Jimmy actually, if this gets taken internally now and doesn't continue to snowball.

This would be a great move by Butler...one that could be done in a simple conversation in Hoiberg's office. "Fred, I want you to know that I have your back if you coach all of us, myself included, harder".

Agreed. This was emotional, not clever. Will be interesting to see how Butler responds if/when Fred lays down the law starting with him. Butler has a problem with players not doing what the coach says? He should lead by example by doing his job (on the court), supporting the coach (not undermining him), and getting in player's faces if he is so moved by their failure to do their job.

It would be great if Fred slaps down Jimmy for this - but not just him - then starts slapping down whoever isn't playing up to par.

Jimmy would get his wish then, we'd just have to see if he really wanted what he asked for.

[musiqsoulchild]

I heard Fred was a wonderful communicator. That's part of why we fired the last guy, a mean grinch!

If Butler doesn't feel he can talk to Fred something went wrong in him failing to get his message across.

Thibs was a BRILLIANT communicator as well.

His message of "We have enough", "Do your job"....his players bought into it.

At the end of the day - communication is about wether your intended audience understands you and how they react.

By that benchmark, Jimmy is a **** communicator. His message will not have the intended consequence- if that is indeed his intent.

Secondly, if you take a group of 15 players + 5 Assistant Coaches + 10 physical trainers + Boss ------- then your communication style will connect with some and it won't connect with some.

That's a human fact/frailty - nothing to do with Thibs or Fred.

What's important is to consider the long term organizations goals and to see if that communication is in line with those goals and the players involved with those goals.

[DarthDiggler69]

Last year we blamed the coach. This year we will blame the players. Even our best players.

Eventually the responsibility is going to have to roll around to everyone in the organization.

As I've said numerous times on this thread, this entire organization is in need of a nuclear bomb.

Careful what you wish for, the last nuclear bomb most fans stopped watching for about 6-8 years and involved more ups and down than you can imagine

[Stratmaster]

Last year we blamed the coach. This year we will blame the players. Even our best players.

Eventually the responsibility is going to have to roll around to everyone in the organization.

Blame them for what?

I don't blame Butler for the Bulls not having a better record. I blame him for turning into a prima donna and throwing his teammates and coach under the bus while not practicing what he preaches. I will only blame him for the team's performance if there is an obvious downturn in performance related to the drama he is causing. I don't expect that, and even if it were true it would be impossible to say it for certain.

Is Butler wrong to assert the team isn't performing well enough?

If we are on track, well its the same track we were on last year success wise, and we fired the coach at the end of last year. So if it wasn't good enough then, why is it good enough now?

Butler can acknowledge he wants the team to play better without calling out the coach and specific (but unnamed) teammates. Players do it all the time. You know this.

[Stratmaster]

I heard Fred was a wonderful communicator. That's part of why we fired the last guy, a mean grinch!

If Butler doesn't feel he can talk to Fred something went wrong in him failing to get his message across.

Or maybe Fred doesn't agree with Jimmy? And if not, and Jimmy then cries to the press, that is somehow Hoiberg's fault?

[musiqsoulchild]

Because last year was the culmination of 5 seasons of Thibs.

And because he was a prick to his colleagues and his boss.

MJ was a prick too.

I'd rather win more.

Not that Thibs did that last year, but just about as well as we are now, and he had more injuries and 2 rookies, who should be further progressed.

JVG said its a better team than last year. But yet not showing it.

JVG was trolling the Bulls front office. He can't speak against then because he doesn't have the power ( legal, ethical or personal) to do so.

Thibs payments would be in jeopardy and JVG's job itself would be in jeopardy if he dissected the situation as he thought it to be true. He even asked for Thibs to join the Bulls as an offensive coordinator. What? That's a little man with a little brain and a smaller heart.

And please don't compare anybody or anything basketball related to MJ - the comparison always fails.

Jimmy is the self - appointed leader on this team. He is a self- made player and it's possible he thinks that his hard work gives him the agency to talk whatever he wants to whomever he wants.

This is simply not true. Take PJ and MJ for example - as a player and coach ( the greatest of all time in those fields may I add) - they were constantly in the FO's and ownership a face.

Put them in the same ownership and executive spotlight - and all that pride is now humbled and pie is being served. Ala Face.

MJ and PJ get it - they get it now. That it's not easy to talk about something they didn't know Jack about. Jimmy needs to learn the same thing - and he's nowhere near eligible to have the same freedom and MJ has as a player and PJ had as a coach.