Moderators: HomoSapien, Ice Man, Michael Jackson, dougthonus, Tommy Udo 6 , kulaz3000, fleet, DASMACKDOWN, GimmeDat, RedBulls23, AshyLarrysDiaper, coldfish, Payt10
HomoSapien wrote:BTW, had no idea that Bob Costas used to call WGN games with Johnny Red Kerr. How great of a telecast must that have been.
othawhitemeat wrote:The Evidence wrote:We're "playing the result"....and looking too closely at the "optics".
If some Rico Suave Pat Riley type flipped Pippen early for T-Mac, Kemp, or the Boston Haul, etc..... we'd be worshipping that GM like a genius adonis.
Instead we're ripping a Miserable Short Fat dude for breaking up a GOAT team.
Instead we're all sycophantically ripping a dead dude because MJ, Pip, and Phil all hate the same guy.
"Aging stars are the worst players to coach" because they can't acknowledge the fact that they're at the end.
All of this player bitterness is exactly a carbon copy of KG and Pierce's ironic bitterness when Ainge broke up the Celtics.
Sure they weren't coming off a Title, but it was clear they were done. And yet they threw their tantrums.
Ainge's moves worked out better than Krause's, but I don't fault Krause for the logic.
98 was the most impressive run for me, because we should not have won.
I don't think we win in 99, 00, or beyond.
All of this blame game nonsense is just theatrical hysteria.
I think in 99 they could have won only because season was shortened, but you are correct in that they were going downhill.
wickywack wrote:transplant wrote:I just heard the full SCORE interview with Tim Floyd. Every SCORE host has been ridiculing Floyd because he was defensive (he was), but I found him completely believable. I knew Krause wanted to hire Floyd after he felt the Bulls run was over, but I never knew that he seriously wanted to replace Jackson with Floyd in the middle of the second 3-peat. Both Floyd and Reinsdorf felt it was premature. Reinsdorf encouraged Floyd to share his feelings with Krause which Floyd did. Reinsdorf did what a smart manager does in using someone else to close off what he believed to be a bad decision so he didn't have to use his veto power (Reinsdorf has always taken pride in letting his people do their jobs).
You might be giving Reinsdorf too much credit. Every time Jordan or Jackson negotiated Reinsdorf directly on contracts, he was effectively cutting Krause out of the loop - i.e., not letting him do his job. When Reinsdorf decided to bring the team back in 97 (and apparently 96), he wasn't letting Krause do his job. Krause's opinions were strong and well-known. When he was circumvented, he was undermined.
Reinsdorf should have made a clear decision: either back Krause or let him go in 96 or 97. Instead, he kept him on damaged. I don't think he did Krause a favor here. If Krause gently departs in 96 or 97, he's still in the HOF, still gets credit for all the championships, and doesn't get saddled with the blame on dismantling the team. I actually think he would have landed a plum GM job elsewhere with his 97 resume. Instead, he left in 03 as a pariah.
HomoSapien wrote:MrSparkle wrote:I am surprised that Jerry didn't express interest in Odom, Marion, Kirilenko. But Brand wasn't a bad pick.
Odom was actually his first choice, but he was scared off by him in the interview.Odom derailed his chances of being selected No. 1. Then-Bulls general manager Jerry Krause, who died in March, and then-coach Tim Floyd waited seven hours at the airport for Odom’s predraft visit to Chicago, Odom says, but he no-showed and spent the day on Jones Beach in Long Island.
Odom gave the Bulls every reason to pass, including a disconcerting interview with team officials at the predraft combine, and they eventually selected Elton Brand No. 1 overall.
"At the time, it was a blessing because I don’t think I wanted to be No. 1," Odom told The Vertical. "Because the questions that Jerry Krause was asking me were inappropriate, I thought at the time. Jerry Krause was asking me questions about my father’s health, about his past. That was none of his business. That had nothing to do with me being drafted, me being a player. After talking to him, I didn’t really want to be No. 1. It worked out for the best.
https://www.complex.com/sports/2017/08/lamar-odom-explains-why-he-sabotaged-start-nba-career
kulaz3000 wrote:fleet wrote:Burrell was just on NBA radio XM. Says don’t blame MJ, a lot of that doesn’t take into context jokes etc. Also, MJ appreciates his work. They golf together, and that clip got him tons of publicity. Also he says, for his part, things get juicer soon. That clip was only the start.
Yeah, not sure why people would get worked up about that scene in particular. MJ was clearly just messing around.
It was more his random and unncessary jabs every time he crossed paths with Krause which I thought borderlined on bullying to me.
dice wrote:hope they touch on MJ's contract negotiations w/ JR, including JR commenting to jordan that he would regret paying him that much. that's about as bold a comment as krause's to phil was
MrSparkle wrote:HomoSapien wrote:MrSparkle wrote:I am surprised that Jerry didn't express interest in Odom, Marion, Kirilenko. But Brand wasn't a bad pick.
Odom was actually his first choice, but he was scared off by him in the interview.Odom derailed his chances of being selected No. 1. Then-Bulls general manager Jerry Krause, who died in March, and then-coach Tim Floyd waited seven hours at the airport for Odom’s predraft visit to Chicago, Odom says, but he no-showed and spent the day on Jones Beach in Long Island.
Odom gave the Bulls every reason to pass, including a disconcerting interview with team officials at the predraft combine, and they eventually selected Elton Brand No. 1 overall.
"At the time, it was a blessing because I don’t think I wanted to be No. 1," Odom told The Vertical. "Because the questions that Jerry Krause was asking me were inappropriate, I thought at the time. Jerry Krause was asking me questions about my father’s health, about his past. That was none of his business. That had nothing to do with me being drafted, me being a player. After talking to him, I didn’t really want to be No. 1. It worked out for the best.
https://www.complex.com/sports/2017/08/lamar-odom-explains-why-he-sabotaged-start-nba-career
Dang.
Well all I know is Odom-Artest would've been the wildest rookie tandem of all time (in every way).
Chi town wrote:What I’ve learned through 2 episodes...
JR is the luckiest SOB there is.
MJ falling to 3rd.
Hiring a baseball scout who asked to be GM of the Bulls.
Doesn’t get any luckier than that. Many other owners would have won 7 or even 8 titles. Would have paid Pippen to and straightened out Krause.
Michael Jackson wrote:dice wrote:hope they touch on MJ's contract negotiations w/ JR, including JR commenting to jordan that he would regret paying him that much. that's about as bold a comment as krause's to phil was
I even buy his excuse but I mean WTF are you doing saying that?
kulaz3000 wrote:Another component which I found quite fascinating was how much more valued the big man was back in the day. I mean, that generation, the quality centre was so highly valued and tied to winning or even having the chance of winning a championship. It's funny because it's so different these days.
kulaz3000 wrote:Another component which I found quite fascinating was how much more valued the big man was back in the day. I mean, that generation, the quality centre was so highly valued and tied to winning or even having the chance of winning a championship. It's funny because it's so different these days.
dice wrote:Michael Jackson wrote:dice wrote:hope they touch on MJ's contract negotiations w/ JR, including JR commenting to jordan that he would regret paying him that much. that's about as bold a comment as krause's to phil was
I even buy his excuse but I mean WTF are you doing saying that?
what was his excuse again? because i don't understand the thought process at all. was jordan not worth that money on 1 year deals?
kulaz3000 wrote:While I get where you're coming from, and quite frankly in most cases I wouldn't think differently, but we are talking about a dynasty. The greatest player and arguably the greatest head coach and number 2 player in NBA history. A team which almost single handidly catapulted the league into the mamoth money making machine it is today. They deserved to ride it out for as long as they damn wanted to until all 4 wheels fell off if they wanted to, if any group of players and head coach deserved it, it was those 3.
As MJ said it himself in a press conference (in the documentary), teams rebuild for decades with nothing in return, and you have a dynasty albiet in the twighlight years, you stick with it for as long as they want to, and once they decide to call it quits is when you pivot. Krause without question let his ego get the better of him, and though I agree it is a little tasteless that they were ragging on him so much in the documentary (considering that Krause couldn't tell his side of the story), they were simply telling it how it was at the time.
Jeffster81 wrote:TIL that Krause was not the guy who wanted Grant, he wanted Joe Wolf (as did MJ), it was Johnny Bach--the one person who could stomach Krause, apparently---who talked Krause into drafting Grant.
Did the Bulls players have to act immaturely against Krause? No, they did not but ultimately, I truly believe Krause brought a lot of that onto himself. He does not get much sympathy from me.
bullsnewdynasty wrote:The more I think about it, it was a shame that the dynasty broke up, but it's not like a dynasty hasn't been broken up since due to highly combustible egos. You could argue that the Lakers and the Warriors were the two most dominant teams since the 90s Bulls.
Kobe & Shaq won 3 titles, went to 4 out of 5 consecutive Finals. And unlike the Bulls, Kobe was entering his prime so that tandem could have easily had another 3 peat.
Warriors went to 5 consecutive finals with 3 titles, yet can't overcome some petty squabbling and the dynasty ends with KD leaving.
So regardless of what you want to say about the Bulls, there seems to be a clear trend of dominant teams that could have had a longer run, but didn't because of massive egos involved. And those teams actually had players who were not in the twilight of their careers. Everyone assumes the Bulls win another one in 99, but what if they actually lost? What does that do to MJ's legacy?