Bulls trade Alex Caruso to OKC for Josh Giddey

[1985Bear]

Welcome back to the Bulls bored. I like the trade but it won’t make me forget that Jerry still owns the Sox and Bulls.

If OKC offered 2 FRPs: 12 this year and their pick next year (25-30)
Or
Josh Giddey.

I’m taking Giddey over 2 picks. The only reason OKC would make Giddey available is because they have 37 picks to replace him. They will be able to keep sending out good young prospects for years to add championship vet pieces.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Ice Man]

I’m taking Giddey over 2 picks. The only reason OKC would make Giddey available is because they have 37 picks to replace him. They will be able to keep sending out good young prospects for years to add championship vet pieces.

Exactly. When seeking a young prospect, the teams to trade with are those that have an abundance of them, rather than those that have a shortage.

[Dan Z]

I'm curious...

How many players, who were lottery picks, were traded before the end of their rookie deal and it worked out better for their new team?

I ask this not because I think the Giddey deal is bad, but because I wonder where it stands historically.

[Jcool0]

Welcome back to the Bulls bored. I like the trade but it won’t make me forget that Jerry still owns the Sox and Bulls.

If OKC offered 2 FRPs: 12 this year and their pick next year (25-30)
Or
Josh Giddey.

I’m taking Giddey over 2 picks. The only reason OKC would make Giddey available is because they have 37 picks to replace him. They will be able to keep sending out good young prospects for years to add championship vet pieces.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

This isn't the NFL you... You will be lucky to find a rotational player in the late 1st round.

[Jcool0]

I'm curious...

How many players, who were lottery picks, were traded before the end of their rookie deal and it worked out better for their new team?

I ask this not because I think the Giddey deal is bad, but because I wonder where it stands historically.

Read on Twitter

[ChettheJet]

I've come up with the question for all those so unsatisfied with this trade

Just 2 years ago Josh Giddey who people claim can't shoot averaged 16.6PPG

last year 30 year old Alex Caruso had his highest scoring average of his career 10.9PPG and shot the highest 3pt % of his career

Just explain it slowly so an old fool can understand

Why do you think a 30 year old Alex Caruso can put up those new career high numbers BUT

a 21 year old Josh Giddey has topped out and can't improve his game?

[sco]

Thoughts a few hours after...

- If this signals that the Bulls are going to trigger a rebuild and go all in on making the effort to keep their 2025 1st rounder, then I feel a lot better about this.

- I still cannot believe that the Bulls could not pry at least some sort of draft asset back from OKC, considering their overflowing vault of future picks.

- The Bulls have a very brief window to determine if Giddey is a fundamental piece of this team's future. You have to give him every opportunity this season to see who he is. Put the ball in his hands. Let him flourish or flounder.

I still think the Bulls waited too long to capitalize on Caruso as an asset, but if this is the first move of this front office actually committing to a necessary rebuild, then so be it.

I am defending AK in regard to not trading Caruso sooner. While we are focused on tanking to find a star, he has repeatedly said that wasn't something he'd do as GM. I do recall that he did consider trading AC to GS if the deal included Kuminga, which is exactly the right sort of deal, but GS wouldn't give him up and it would have been for Moody (trash) and likely a crappy pick. I much prefer getting a young (albeit incomplete but developing young guy who has shown something in the NBA) to getting 2 picks likely to be in the 20's.

[2weekswithpay]

I'm curious...

How many players, who were lottery picks, were traded before the end of their rookie deal and it worked out better for their new team?

I ask this not because I think the Giddey deal is bad, but because I wonder where it stands historically.

Haliburton
Aaron Nesmith
Brandon Ingram
SGA
Poeltl
Sabonis
Rui
Lavine

[sco]

Here is Chicago's roster as of right now:
PG White / Ayo / Giddey / Ball / Carter
SG Lavine
SF Phillips / Terry
PF Williams / Craig
C Vucevic

That's some top tier team building there.

.....

One thing I haven't really heard discussed much is that Giddey is probably not as good as White and Ayo. Giddey isn't an off ball guy.

While he is an intriguing prospect due to his age, this team is a hot mess personnel wise.

Ayo's more a SG than a PG IMO. He's not a pure passer, and he's definitely sized as a SG and has the defensive capability to defend 1-3. He can play SG, but if he keeps up his open 3 point shooting, he's a really good fit next to Giddey. Coby shoots way better off ball than on ball, so I don't think it's a huge problem to play him next to Giddey either, though the defensive pairing there is certainly more dicey, and Giddey's 6'8, so you can hide him on a bigger but less athletic guys the other team often trots out there, and he can keep them off the glass / defend the three point line.

That said, I agree that the Bulls roster is a mess, but it's primarily a mess if they bring back Vuc and DeRozan, those two guys do not fit around someone like Giddey at all, you can't have three non shooters out there, and it's obvious those guys don't fit the timeline.

If we could somehow flip DeRozan and Vuc into a really good defensive center, and a 3&D wing then keep Zach, then the Bulls would be really intriguing with Giddey setting everyone up and and a defensive stopper behind them, but that's probably a tall order.

Relative to Coby and Ayo, I think Coby might be the most overrated Bull I've seen. He had one super hot month where he shot like 60% from three and people started thinking star potential when it was obvious he would not keep that up because Steph Curry couldn't keep that up, and outside of that, he went back to being what looks like a bench gunner to me. Still only a moderate efficiency scorer with limited passing vision and defensive ability. Giddey has different flaws, but more talent IMO. If Giddey can actually learn to shoot, his upside would destroy any reasonable improvement you could project onto Coby or Ayo.

Of the three Ayo has the highest floor and is the most versatile, he's a legit NBA multi-position defender, and looks like a capable open 3 point shooter with decent ball handling skills and some creation. Ayo's going to be a valuable guy in the league for the next 15 years that can fit onto literally any team, because every team will need what he does given he might have the two most important strengths, and no meaningful weaknesses, but he also likely has the lowest ceiling.

Coby/Giddey are guys that will also likely have long careers and have more potential to make a larger impact, but they will be niche fits because they have important flaws that are unlikely to be corrected and will only make that larger impact if put in the right situation and will be less valuable in a generic situation.

The Bulls need to be thoughtful about how they build their team with guys like Coby/Giddey and that's certainly more complicated and difficult.

Good points!

I think we may be better off rolling with Giddey/Ayo/Demar/Pat/Vuc and Coby getting pushed back to 6th man next season. The more interesting scenario will be if we could s&t demar and roll with Giddey/Coby/Ayo/Pat/Vuc next season. Sure we'd win 20 games, but it would be more fun to watch.

On losing AC, if we are able to keep Green and Ball is miraculously able to play, we can replace 100% of AC's minutes without losing anything.

[FriedRise]

I go through these stages pretty quickly and have now arrived at Acceptance. I honestly could care less about defense in today's league, so if we truly traded an aging defense for a younger offense, then one could view that as a W.

I don't know much about Giddey's game, and I hate that the only thing I know about him is the scandal. Watching a few highlights, his passing skills seem to be on point. If a guy cuts (which OKC did a lot - specifically Jalen Williams), he'll find him. If someone's open in the corner, he'll find him. Some of those dimes were Lonzo-esque. That's a good thing because we know how stale our offense has been with DeMar, and it only got slightly better with Coby manning the ball. They tried the point forward thing with Patrick Williams, but he couldn't dribble in traffic. Adding another playmaker in the squad could only be a good thing.

What's not good though is the shooting situation. I know he's improved every year, but that number needs to keep going up - both % and attempts. We cannot start a season in 2024 with DeMar, Giddey, and Vooch in the frontcourt. It sucked in the 3 alphas year when we completely ignored shooting, and that was 8 years ago. The guy who would've fit is Zach, but he's already at the airport. So now we're relying on Ayo, Coby, and Pat to shoulder all of the 3pt shooting responsibility. That's not gonna be good enough - unless we're trying to tank which I still don't see as a direction that ownership would sign off on.

[Jcool0]

FWIW in the 3 playoff games he played 20+ MPG in he averaged 16 ppg on 53/56/83

[MrSparkle]

I'm curious...

How many players, who were lottery picks, were traded before the end of their rookie deal and it worked out better for their new team?

I ask this not because I think the Giddey deal is bad, but because I wonder where it stands historically.

Well, Cam Payne did get better after he got worse.

[MGB8]

Some thoughts:

- I don't think this move signals a rebuild as much as some people think it does. Giddey has shown to be a serviceable player when given the ball, and there probably were trade packages that included a bunch of picks, but we chose this one because AK wants someone who projects to be a contributor.

- The timing of the trade suggests the team knows Demar is not coming back. The fact that this trade happened after the FA negotiating window but before draft and FA means they had enough time to discuss with Demar's agents and wanted to have this trade in place before they made other moves. I think DeMar is moved for something else, but I'm not sure what.

- I think this trade signals the return of Zach Lavine. If Giddey stays healthy this will be the first time in Zach's life that he'll play an entire year with a good distributor. I think there's a good chance that Zach's a lot easier to like when he has someone else to take care of the ball. I want the team to hold on to Zach to see if we can get 27 PPG, 60% TS Zach vs. sell him off for parts.

- I think Coby White ends up being the odd man out. Giddey-Zach-Pat is a coherent backcourt. Ayo fits in really well as a third wheel. If you project all 3 of those guys as being 30 MPG+ players, then the easiest way to balance out the roster is to move Coby for frontcourt help. I wonder if the Magic would consider moving Jonathan Isaac for Coby.

Agree on 1 and 3. Partially agree on 2. Disagree on 4.

I def think that AKME is not willing to go full rebuild. I also think the silence in DDR plus adding a weak shooting primary ball handler means it is more likely than not that DDR goes elsewhere, and that his financial demands aren’t consistent with where ownership wants the team.

On LaVine, I don’t think that this signals a long term commitment to him. But I do think it signals that AKME is expecting to not be able to move him for an acceptable return (which would be something like not sending out any assets plus getting back a decent contributing player or 2 and a protected first, as was discussed in relation to the floated Detroit trade). I see LaVine with the team to start the season, but possibly moved at the deadline, depending on how things are playing out.

On Coby, I don’t see him as the odd man out, at all. I expect a Giddey-Coby-Zach trio to be starting in the backcourt, Ayo off the bench. And, assuming that Zach commits enough on D and Giddey can improve a little bit, Coby continues to improve a bit - I think that can work. You have a distributor mentality coupling out two scorer mentalities.

The issue is on D. Presuming the Bulls resign Pat (likely), and he again starts at the 4 (likely), you still have the Vuc sized problem at the 5. If I had to guess on how this will be handled, the Bulls will not move Vuc, but may well draft a C as well as spend partial MLE on another one (or bring one in via a DDR sign and trade for a lot less than DDR was hoping for) - and try to limit Vuc’s minutes, selling it as part of a “keep legs fresh” protocol to him. (I also expect them to resign Javonte).

[prolific passer]

Wonder where Giddy is gonna play?

[ChiefILL53]

Some thoughts:

- I don't think this move signals a rebuild as much as some people think it does. Giddey has shown to be a serviceable player when given the ball, and there probably were trade packages that included a bunch of picks, but we chose this one because AK wants someone who projects to be a contributor.

- The timing of the trade suggests the team knows Demar is not coming back. The fact that this trade happened after the FA negotiating window but before draft and FA means they had enough time to discuss with Demar's agents and wanted to have this trade in place before they made other moves. I think DeMar is moved for something else, but I'm not sure what.

- I think this trade signals the return of Zach Lavine. If Giddey stays healthy this will be the first time in Zach's life that he'll play an entire year with a good distributor. I think there's a good chance that Zach's a lot easier to like when he has someone else to take care of the ball. I want the team to hold on to Zach to see if we can get 27 PPG, 60% TS Zach vs. sell him off for parts.

- I think Coby White ends up being the odd man out. Giddey-Zach-Pat is a coherent backcourt. Ayo fits in really well as a third wheel. If you project all 3 of those guys as being 30 MPG+ players, then the easiest way to balance out the roster is to move Coby for frontcourt help. I wonder if the Magic would consider moving Jonathan Isaac for Coby.

I think the bridge with Zach and the org was burned in one of the michael bay esque explosions. His trade is imminent. I dont think in any way shape or form does this mean Coby is the oddman out. Nor should he be. He's younger than Zach and on a steal of a contract. Pat has nothing to do with this because he's a frontcourt player. Giddey/Coby/Ayo is a coherent backcourt rotation, with both Ayo and Giddey being able to slot at the 3 if need be for matchup purposes. What I hope AKME does in a Zach trade is get an actual PF so Pat can slide back to the 3, if we keep him and he doesnt get an absurd offer sheet.

[jnrjr79]

Reaction around the league from all the pundits is shock that the Thunder didn’t have to include any picks. Bobby Marks said that he texted two GMs around the league about their reaction to the trade and both immediately asked what draft capital the Bulls got. I think the consensus out there is that the Bulls didn’t get as much for Caruso as most expected.

I like Giddey the player in a nutshell, but his trade value is at a all-time low whereas Caruso is an incredibly sought after player who is viewed as a needle mover. This may ultimately work out just fine for the Bulls, but the trade itself wasn’t good.

Giddey's value was lower, but so was caruso's since he's in a contract year. Okc isn't getting caruso for a cheap next contract like we did.

As far as those gms reactions, it's okc that set what they wanted to trade. Okc only got so many picks because they valued them so much, so i doubt other gms realize yet how hard it may be to pry picks from them. My guess is those gms would have "lost" their trades if they were in akme's position.

People on this board keep bringing up AC being in a contract year but I don’t really see any evidence that it impacted his trade value significantly. It seems like he still was sought after.

Well, being "sought after" doesn't really tell you much about his overall value. I think it's clear OKC traded for him fully intending to give him his max ~$80M extension. Whether other teams would have offered more last year for 2 playoff runs with AC and been comfortable potentially not extending him is unknown.

[FriedRise]

I'm curious...

How many players, who were lottery picks, were traded before the end of their rookie deal and it worked out better for their new team?

I ask this not because I think the Giddey deal is bad, but because I wonder where it stands historically.

Well, Cam Payne did get better after he got worse.

We dogged Lauri to hell and back and the dude became an All Star starter in the West (albeit a couple teams later).

[PlayerUp]

I'm curious...

How many players, who were lottery picks, were traded before the end of their rookie deal and it worked out better for their new team?

I ask this not because I think the Giddey deal is bad, but because I wonder where it stands historically.

Well, Cam Payne did get better after he got worse.

Lauri Markkanen.

There are lots of examples here.

Giddey stats only got worse because OKC got much better. They went from a tanking team to the #1 team in the West and therefore Giddey production declined. Factor in as well his offcourt issues.

[jnrjr79]

Cowley spoke about the picks that were offered for Caruso, there were only picks offered in this draft, because nobody thinks much of this draft. It normally is a crapshoot, but this year the #20 could be the best player in the draft even more than any other year. Nobody was offering future picks and definitely not for next year.

He also says that DDR probably thinks about where to go more, now that Caruso is gone. That would be too good. I like DDR he is a great human being, but he just doesn't fit with where we should go.

FWIW, that may be true for what was offered now, but this was posted by Will Gottleib earlier today, which provides some clarification on what was available at the deadline:

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[RSP83]

I go through these stages pretty quickly and have now arrived at Acceptance. I honestly could care less about defense in today's league, so if we truly traded an aging defense for a younger offense, then one could view that as a W.

I don't know much about Giddey's game, and I hate that the only thing I know about him is the scandal. Watching a few highlights, his passing skills seem to be on point. If a guy cuts (which OKC did a lot - specifically Jalen Williams), he'll find him. If someone's open in the corner, he'll find him. Some of those dimes were Lonzo-esque. That's a good thing because we know how stale our offense has been with DeMar, and it only got slightly better with Coby manning the ball. They tried the point forward thing with Patrick Williams, but he couldn't dribble in traffic. Adding another playmaker in the squad could only be a good thing.

What's not good though is the shooting situation. I know he's improved every year, but that number needs to keep going up - both % and attempts. We cannot start a season in 2024 with DeMar, Giddey, and Vooch in the backcourt. It sucked in the 3 alphas year when we completely ignored shooting, and that was 8 years ago. The guy who would've fit is Zach, but he's already at the airport. So now we're relying on Ayo, Coby, and Pat to shoulder all of the 3pt shooting responsibility. That's not gonna be good enough - unless we're trying to tank which I still don't see as a direction that ownership would sign off on.

One thing I'm already happy about this trade is we no longer need to rely on Caruso to initiate the offense on some possessions. There were a lot of this Caruso bringing up the ball up court, with Coby and DeMar running on the wings, last season. Switch Caruso with Giddey, it would automatically improves the value of those possessions.

Giddey can't replace Lonzo's off the ball ability, but he's more of a threat than Lonzo when running half-court plays. In terms of vision I think both are about the same. Giddey needs to improve his 3-point shooting to make the same impact as Lonzo.