The Zach Lavine Problem

[MrFortune3]

He's saying the Heat were able to build around Wade when they had very little talent. That is a misnomer since he was best friends with Bosh and James and they planned to play together. They didn't actually build around him so much as clear cap space.

OK, that is what I thought he was saying and my jaw kind of dropped.

Its not a misnomer. What is the point in tanking? High draft picks right? What were the heat doing before LeBron and Bosh? Tanking, and getting high draft picks (Beasley). Riley just simply kept his star, which kept his options wide open. Their was no talk of trading Wade, because Riley isn't an idiot.

My point is simply we could be accomplishing the same thing we are doing now, and kept Butler to recruit for 2018. We would of had this past years high pick, next years high pick, cap space, and a star to recruit FAs. The best of both worlds, and a real "process" and real "flexibility".

Building around a star is usually done through drafting and trading, Wade and co had already decided to play together and Miami cleared the space to sign his friends. That's not building around.

[inescape]

OK, that is what I thought he was saying and my jaw kind of dropped.

Its not a misnomer. What is the point in tanking? High draft picks right? What were the heat doing before LeBron and Bosh? Tanking, and getting high draft picks (Beasley). Riley just simply kept his star, which kept his options wide open. Their was no talk of trading Wade, because Riley isn't an idiot.

My point is simply we could be accomplishing the same thing we are doing now, and kept Butler to recruit for 2018. We would of had this past years high pick, next years high pick, cap space, and a star to recruit FAs. The best of both worlds, and a real "process" and real "flexibility".

Building around a star is usually done through drafting and trading, Wade and co had already decided to play together and Miami cleared the space to sign his friends. That's not building around.

In 2007/2008 Miami won 15 games with Wade and picked #2 overall. Is that not tanking and keeping your star? Could the Bulls not have done this last year, and again if needed this year? The answer is yes and it is a superior plan if your goal is winning. If your goal is year to year profit you do what the Bulls did.

[Stratmaster]

He's saying the Heat were able to build around Wade when they had very little talent. That is a misnomer since he was best friends with Bosh and James and they planned to play together. They didn't actually build around him so much as clear cap space.

OK, that is what I thought he was saying and my jaw kind of dropped.

Its not a misnomer. What is the point in tanking? High draft picks right? What were the heat doing before LeBron and Bosh? Tanking, and getting high draft picks (Beasley). Riley just simply kept his star, which kept his options wide open. Their was no talk of trading Wade, because Riley isn't an idiot.

My point is simply we could be accomplishing the same thing we are doing now, and kept Butler to recruit for 2018. We would of had this past years high pick, next years high pick (don't sign Wade/Rondo, trade Lopez/Taj), cap space, and a star to recruit FAs. The best of both worlds, and a real "process" and real "flexibility".

Butler was traded because they don't want to pay him in two years. Always follow the money with the Bulls.

Sure, they could have kept Butler and acted as if Butler was as talented as Wade was back then, and acted if Butler's two buddies who he could bring in were the best player in basketball and another guy who was a top 3 player at his position. And then they could have pretended that Butler had half the draw Wade did, and pretended that oh, say Steph Curry and another top 3 guy a ta position would take less money to team up with Butler in Chicago.

They would have been really naive, but I guess they could have done that.

[inescape]

OK, that is what I thought he was saying and my jaw kind of dropped.

Its not a misnomer. What is the point in tanking? High draft picks right? What were the heat doing before LeBron and Bosh? Tanking, and getting high draft picks (Beasley). Riley just simply kept his star, which kept his options wide open. Their was no talk of trading Wade, because Riley isn't an idiot.

My point is simply we could be accomplishing the same thing we are doing now, and kept Butler to recruit for 2018. We would of had this past years high pick, next years high pick (don't sign Wade/Rondo, trade Lopez/Taj), cap space, and a star to recruit FAs. The best of both worlds, and a real "process" and real "flexibility".

Butler was traded because they don't want to pay him in two years. Always follow the money with the Bulls.

Sure, they could have kept Butler and acted as if Butler was as talented as Wade was back then, and acted if Butler's two buddies who he could bring in were the best player in basketball and another guy who was a top 3 player at his position. And then they could have pretended that Butler had half the draw Wade did, and pretended that oh, say Steph Curry and another top 3 guy a ta position would take less money to team up with Butler in Chicago.

They would have been really naive, but I guess they could have done that.

You don't need a single FA to sign with us for it to be a better plan. It comes down to Butler vs Dunn/Lavine. Could have drafted Markkanen with our own high pick. We would be the same otherwise as far as opportunities/flexibility go.

[MrFortune3]

Its not a misnomer. What is the point in tanking? High draft picks right? What were the heat doing before LeBron and Bosh? Tanking, and getting high draft picks (Beasley). Riley just simply kept his star, which kept his options wide open. Their was no talk of trading Wade, because Riley isn't an idiot.

My point is simply we could be accomplishing the same thing we are doing now, and kept Butler to recruit for 2018. We would of had this past years high pick, next years high pick, cap space, and a star to recruit FAs. The best of both worlds, and a real "process" and real "flexibility".

Building around a star is usually done through drafting and trading, Wade and co had already decided to play together and Miami cleared the space to sign his friends. That's not building around.

In 2007/2008 Miami won 15 games with Wade and picked #2 overall. Is that not tanking and keeping your star? Could the Bulls not have done this last year, and again if needed this year? The answer is yes and it is a superior plan if your goal is winning. If your goal is year to year profit you do what the Bulls did.

Once again, look at that Miami roster before saying these things. Wade was the only guy to average more than 15.4 ppg.
Wade was coming off of surgery on his shoulder and knee that off-season, played in 51 games, started 49.
The roster was absolute trash. That roster was worse than anything the Bulls could put out there last season and this season.

[inescape]

Building around a star is usually done through drafting and trading, Wade and co had already decided to play together and Miami cleared the space to sign his friends. That's not building around.

In 2007/2008 Miami won 15 games with Wade and picked #2 overall. Is that not tanking and keeping your star? Could the Bulls not have done this last year, and again if needed this year? The answer is yes and it is a superior plan if your goal is winning. If your goal is year to year profit you do what the Bulls did.

Once again, look at that Miami roster before saying these things. Wade was the only guy to average more than 15.4 ppg.
Wade was coming off of surgery on his shoulder and knee that off-season, played in 51 games, started 49.
The roster was absolute trash. That roster was worse than anything the Bulls could put out there last season and this season.

You don't sign Wade or Rondo. Trade away Taj and probably Lopez. You don't think thats a high lottery (top 7) team last year?

[Stratmaster]

Its not a misnomer. What is the point in tanking? High draft picks right? What were the heat doing before LeBron and Bosh? Tanking, and getting high draft picks (Beasley). Riley just simply kept his star, which kept his options wide open. Their was no talk of trading Wade, because Riley isn't an idiot.

My point is simply we could be accomplishing the same thing we are doing now, and kept Butler to recruit for 2018. We would of had this past years high pick, next years high pick (don't sign Wade/Rondo, trade Lopez/Taj), cap space, and a star to recruit FAs. The best of both worlds, and a real "process" and real "flexibility".

Butler was traded because they don't want to pay him in two years. Always follow the money with the Bulls.

Sure, they could have kept Butler and acted as if Butler was as talented as Wade was back then, and acted if Butler's two buddies who he could bring in were the best player in basketball and another guy who was a top 3 player at his position. And then they could have pretended that Butler had half the draw Wade did, and pretended that oh, say Steph Curry and another top 3 guy a ta position would take less money to team up with Butler in Chicago.

They would have been really naive, but I guess they could have done that.

You don't need a single FA to sign with us for it to be a better plan. It comes down to Butler vs Dunn/Lavine. Could have drafted Markkanen with our own high pick. We would be the same otherwise as far as opportunities/flexibility go.

They could have also re-signed Rondo, traded players and their pick to move and pick Markk and made the playoffs again, possible winning a playoff series and then shed Wade and picked up a free agent next offseason to improve a little more. As someone who thinks tanking is both morally and startegically bankrupt, and is ruining the NBA I would have much preferred that.

If you are saying they should have kept Butler and not tanked, we likely are on the same side of the fence.

If you are saying they could have tanked effectively with Butler, he is too good for that to have happened.

[dice]

In 2007/2008 Miami won 15 games with Wade and picked #2 overall. Is that not tanking and keeping your star? Could the Bulls not have done this last year, and again if needed this year? The answer is yes and it is a superior plan if your goal is winning. If your goal is year to year profit you do what the Bulls did.

the argument previously was that the bulls eschew tanking in favor of cobbling together enough talent to get that "playoff money" year after year. now that they ARE going the tanking route, they're accused of doing it to...what, save money or something? I can't even follow your logic

[Stratmaster]

In 2007/2008 Miami won 15 games with Wade and picked #2 overall. Is that not tanking and keeping your star? Could the Bulls not have done this last year, and again if needed this year? The answer is yes and it is a superior plan if your goal is winning. If your goal is year to year profit you do what the Bulls did.

Once again, look at that Miami roster before saying these things. Wade was the only guy to average more than 15.4 ppg.
Wade was coming off of surgery on his shoulder and knee that off-season, played in 51 games, started 49.
The roster was absolute trash. That roster was worse than anything the Bulls could put out there last season and this season.

You don't sign Wade or Rondo. Trade away Taj and probably Lopez. You don't think thats a high lottery (top 7) team last year?

You have to add 4 guys to the roster still. who are they? Rose would have been at PG then, right? Or are you saying they make the trade with Rose and then just dump Rolo for nothing? That still leaves Grant, Butler, Niko, McDermott, Zipser, Portis, Felicio...and 4 other players . If you trade Taj and RoLo you are bringing back somebody of equal salaries.

The Bulls were too good to tank last season. For better or worse, they aren't now.

[vvgotgame19]

We'd be much better off offering him an extension before he hits RFA and the Nets or Knicks throw something ridiculous at him.

He's like Butler in a sense in that he'll never be the man, but at that point we won't have much salary, and in a rebuild you can't afford to let a talented 23 year old walk.

The problem with Butler was not that he couldn't be the man, the problem was that he was too good for us to be bad enough to surround him with talent and when they did try...they drafted Doug McDermott.

Heat did it with Wade, Bulls could have done it with Butler. That was the best move and it should of happened last offseason.

The Heat were only able to do it because the 3 amigos wanted to play together. With the way things went down, I'm pretty sure Wade had told Riley they all wanted to play together ahead of time so Riley could make it happen.

Even if Jimmy's friends want to play with him, LeBron and Wade were top 3 players, so unless Jimmy's friends with LeBron, KD, Steph and Kawhi, We simply could not duplicate what the Heat did. Kyrie Irving wouldn't cut it...

[MrFortune3]

In 2007/2008 Miami won 15 games with Wade and picked #2 overall. Is that not tanking and keeping your star? Could the Bulls not have done this last year, and again if needed this year? The answer is yes and it is a superior plan if your goal is winning. If your goal is year to year profit you do what the Bulls did.

Once again, look at that Miami roster before saying these things. Wade was the only guy to average more than 15.4 ppg.
Wade was coming off of surgery on his shoulder and knee that off-season, played in 51 games, started 49.
The roster was absolute trash. That roster was worse than anything the Bulls could put out there last season and this season.

You don't sign Wade or Rondo. Trade away Taj and probably Lopez. You don't think thats a high lottery (top 7) team last year?

The Bulls traded Taj because he turned down a contract extension they weren't going to trade him otherwise.
But if you don't sign Wade or Rondo then yes it's a lotto team, top 10 potentially. That's not high enough to warrant losing for the FO.

[pylb]

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[patagonia]

Good. I want him to play the full year.

[Jcool0]

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[Dominator83]

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Derrick Rose is shaking his head right now

[Dominator83]

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LOL. Didn't take long for KC to bring the cold water

[wonderboy2]

This is not to take a shot at Rose, but why is Lavine recovering quicker. I remember Rose saying that he did not want to return because he was having trouble dunking. Lavine said that he's already dunking but not like before yet. If I remember correctly Adrian Peterson had a quick recovery.Dont understand how there can be so much of a gap with these injuries.

[wonderboy2]

Also watching Dennis smith JR dunk in warm ups give me confidence that Lavine can recover well from his injury.

[kulaz3000]

This is not to take a shot at Rose, but why is Lavine recovering quicker. I remember Rose saying that he did not want to return because he was having trouble dunking. Lavine said that he's already dunking but not like before yet. If I remember correctly Adrian Peterson had a quick recovery.Dont understand how there can be so much of a gap with these injuries.

That's probably because Derrick Rose was the former MVP, and the Bulls encouraged him to take as much time as he needed and not to rush back. We are comparing a former MVP who had just signed a max contract, with a player who has yet to sniff an All-Star game and is still on his rookie contract. The motivations from all sides from the player, to management will be vastly different.

In the case of LaVine, the Bulls management wouldn't be in a rush because it's not like they are looking to win as many games this season. Where as from LaVine's point of view, he would be up for an extension so the earlier he comes back and showcases that he is indeed healthy, the better for his future. Eventually they will need to sit down and get on the same page, because I could see this being an issue with the Bulls management imploring him to take his time, and LaVine wanting to get back as soon as possible.

We shall see how it all pans out.

[MC3]

This is not to take a shot at Rose, but why is Lavine recovering quicker. I remember Rose saying that he did not want to return because he was having trouble dunking. Lavine said that he's already dunking but not like before yet. If I remember correctly Adrian Peterson had a quick recovery.Dont understand how there can be so much of a gap with these injuries.

Some people recover quicker. They are naturally quicker healers. Some people have extra ACL ligament in their knee like Dennis Smith Jr. had. And he started dunking two months after surgery.

http://www.espn.com/blog/collegebasketballnation/post/_/id/116869/torn-acl-was-best-thing-to-happen-to-dennis-smith-nc-state
http://www.foxsports.com/college-basketball/story/dennis-smith-jr-is-110-percent-healthy-and-ready-to-lead-nc-state-to-a-big-season-080316

I didnt know having extra ligament in their knee is even possible, but hey around 20% people do. Some people have fear and others dont. Like for some people enough time needs to pass confident to regain trust in their knee, and on first moment of pain they take it as warning sign. People are different.