2018 draft 3.0. #7, #22 - Merged

[Jory04]

This talk about veganism being a problem is silly, healthy diets are a huge benefit when returning from injury. I myself am not vegan, but have been on a keto diet for months. I have lost over eighty pounds, and have had major improvements in reduction of inflammation, both of which have been positively stated attributes to a vegan diet. Add to this the greatest athletes the world has ever seen in Tom Brady and LeBron James switching to what many would consider drastic diets later in their careers and seeing prolonged success at ages when most break down, and I feel more than comfortable with MPJ and his raw vegan diet.

[TheSuzerain]

This talk about veganism being a problem is silly, healthy diets are a huge benefit when returning from injury. I myself am not vegan, but have been on a keto diet for months. I have lost over eighty pounds, and have had major improvements in reduction of inflammation, both of which have been positively stated attributes to a vegan diet. Add to this the greatest athletes the world has ever seen in Tom Brady and LeBron James switching to what many would consider drastic diets later in their careers and seeing prolonged success at ages when most break down, and I feel more than comfortable with MPJ and his raw vegan diet.

Yeah but you needed/wanted to operate at a caloric deficit. MPJ is in a much different boat. That's a concern.

[wonderboy2]

I think you guys are blowing that MPJ quite out of proportion. I heard the interview and he did say all of those things. But he stated that now he feels 100% and better then he ever has.

Well of course he said that. What else is he going to say? " sometimes my back really hurts me". Hell no. There are millions of dollars on the line here and he knows that everybody is going to see that a doctor really cannot give solid prognosis on his condition. He can say whatever he wants.

Of course I agree but if you watch that interview even he acknowledged that it was serious that he had a back injury but he feels better now. It’s not uncommon after any surgery to experience alittle soreness and pain after surgery. You right he can say anything. But that’s why each team have their own doctors to evaluate players. I know people who have done manual labor jobs who **** thier backs all the way up. They got surgery and felt better than ever. The bulls will do their homework on Porter. If they pick him it’s because they feel he is healthy enough.

[Jory04]

This talk about veganism being a problem is silly, healthy diets are a huge benefit when returning from injury. I myself am not vegan, but have been on a keto diet for months. I have lost over eighty pounds, and have had major improvements in reduction of inflammation, both of which have been positively stated attributes to a vegan diet. Add to this the greatest athletes the world has ever seen in Tom Brady and LeBron James switching to what many would consider drastic diets later in their careers and seeing prolonged success at ages when most break down, and I feel more than comfortable with MPJ and his raw vegan diet.

Yeah but you needed/wanted to operate at a caloric deficit. MPJ is in a much different boat. That's a concern.

You are correct, my need for the diet was different than MPJ's, but the health benefits correlate none the less. Issues with inflammation and swelling post surgery are commonplace, and if his diet can relieve those issues and pain associated with them I can see nothing but a positive here. I agree back injures are incredibly dangerous, especially when investing this much into a young man, but his diet should have nothing to do with why we do or do not draft him.

[blicka]

It's gonna take some maneuvering by mpj's agent for him to be on the board at 7. It's a long shot but there's a slim chance

Agents have say so in these things. Porzingis agent wouldn't even let him talk to philly in 2015,no interviews,no workouts,no medicals. Okafor was drafted instead.

I think ayton,doncic,bagley are top 3 locks. Don't know the order but they'll go top 3, then jjj & bamba.I think jjj is perfect for todays league and has just as much upside defensively as bamba he also has similar measurements to ad. I'd be shocked if jjj wasn't taken top 4. Five and 6 is where it gets dicey the mavs and magic and what they do are the keys for the bulls

If the bulls stayed at 6 I'd be more confident in getting mpj but the kings jumping the bulls hurt.I also always have liked miles bridges over mikal. Miles has more upside imo he just needs to improve his handles

[the_future420]

This talk about veganism being a problem is silly, healthy diets are a huge benefit when returning from injury. I myself am not vegan, but have been on a keto diet for months. I have lost over eighty pounds, and have had major improvements in reduction of inflammation, both of which have been positively stated attributes to a vegan diet. Add to this the greatest athletes the world has ever seen in Tom Brady and LeBron James switching to what many would consider drastic diets later in their careers and seeing prolonged success at ages when most break down, and I feel more than comfortable with MPJ and his raw vegan diet.

Yeah but you needed/wanted to operate at a caloric deficit. MPJ is in a much different boat. That's a concern.

Its not that hard to get tons of calories on a vegan diet. When you're eating lots of nuts and healthy fats (think avocadoes, nut butters etc) the calories are not really a concern. Neither is getting adequate protein as some people seem to think. Some veggies have more protein per calorie than most meats, along with the fact that most people don't need to digest nearly as much protein as they think to build and maintain lean muscle mass. To be honest, there's a lot of misinformation and misdirection about nutrition that in my opinion stems from corporate interests that have a financial stake in the masses eating a marketable diet. That is a topic for a different time, but this thing about him being vegan as a negative is based mostly just on lack of knowledge by the general public about nutrition.

[Big Pippen]

Michael Porter eating a vegan diet is not enough for me to label it a "red flag." But a back injury that has limited his mobility and strength for years, is a red flag the size of the parachutes we use to launch balls with and run under in pre school. No way I take a 19 year old with a bad back that has lingered this long.

[TheSuzerain]

A Vegan, a Finn, and a GarPax walk into a bar.

[Axolotl]

About MPJ's veganism: any and all professional athletes have or should have a carefully considered diet. Veganism is no different.

The only thing that one does not get from a vegan diet is B12-vitamin. Everything else is present on a planned vegan diet in sufficient quantities.

For example calories are not a problem. Just eat nuts or add some nice olive oil to your diet. Protein is not a problem either. There are soy products that have twice the amount of protein / 100 grams compared to beef. Lentils have roughly the same amount as beef.

[fleet]

Here's a study on NBA players with lumbar discectomy: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4702156/

In short:

By the second postoperative season, players are able to return to the level of play in terms of games played per season and PER, as the control cohort and career longevity is not significantly affected.

Hmmm. So the first year post-OP is an adjustment year, but there is reason for long term optimism based on this study. In addition it said in there that return to play rates were high. And that surgically treated patients actually did better than non-surgically treated in terms of years played. But performance based on PER was the same:

Conclusion
Regardless of treatment type, players had similar rates of return to play. While operatively treated players had a decline in games played and PER during the first postoperative season, no difference in either statistic was seen by the second season compared with controls. Nonoperatively treated players, in contrast, did not have a significantly greater decline in games played or PER, but had a shorter career length compared with controls

Cautions:

Selection bias toward more well-known players is also possible with the capture methods; however, the preindex PER (mean, 13.9 ± 3.8; range, 4.2-26.1) is similar to the league PER (mean, 15.0; range, 5.2-29.9 in the 2013-2014 season), suggesting a representative sample of the entire NBA player population. Finally, the sample size in this study was relatively small, and because of this, definitive recommendations cannot be made

This study is encouraging, if you buy the relatively low sample size. Indicates while the first year is the key problem in terms of PER, long term performance and career length should be OK as far as return to form of surgically treated patients. Moral of the story, go get some corrective surgery rather than trying physical therapy rehab?

[Poohdini1]

Read on Twitter

Not bad. He's got a little Harden to his game.

[TheSuzerain]

MPJ is a very nice talent. The health concerns seem real though.

And further than that, I think he's a questionable fit with Lauri. I view them as rather redundant. I don't think MPJ the wing is all that great of a prospect. MPJ the big is much better.

And while a MPJ/Lauri combo at the 4/5 is undeniably interesting, it's not something I'd buy stock in.

[Habs72]

A Vegan, a Finn, and a GarPax walk into a bar.

Out came Chuck Norris.

[bad knees]

Are there examples of players who had significant back surgery and went on to have long careers with minimal injury concern

Here's a study on NBA players with lumbar discectomy: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4702156/

In short:

By the second postoperative season, players are able to return to the level of play in terms of games played per season and PER, as the control cohort and career longevity is not significantly affected.

Hmmm. So the first year post-OP is an adjustment year, but there is reason for long term optimism based on this study. In addition it said in there that return to play rates were high. And that surgically treated patients actually did better than non-surgically treated in terms of years played. But performance based on PER was the same:

Conclusion
Regardless of treatment type, players had similar rates of return to play. While operatively treated players had a decline in games played and PER during the first postoperative season, no difference in either statistic was seen by the second season compared with controls. Nonoperatively treated players, in contrast, did not have a significantly greater decline in games played or PER, but had a shorter career length compared with controls

Cautions:

Selection bias toward more well-known players is also possible with the capture methods; however, the preindex PER (mean, 13.9 ± 3.8; range, 4.2-26.1) is similar to the league PER (mean, 15.0; range, 5.2-29.9 in the 2013-2014 season), suggesting a representative sample of the entire NBA player population. Finally, the sample size in this study was relatively small, and because of this, definitive recommendations cannot be made

This study is encouraging, if you buy the relatively low sample size. Indicates while the first year is the key problem in terms of PER, long term performance should be OK as far as return to form of surgically treated patients. Moral of the story, go get some corrective surgery rather than trying physical therapy rehab?

Mmmm. I'm no statistician, but I don't think that this study is saying what you interpret it to say. The purpose of the study was to compare surgical v. non-surgical interventions for disc injuries. They completely excluded from the analysis the 20% of the players who did not return to play. Then they compared differences in performance between those who were operated on and those who were not. The key conclusion was that those who were operated on missed more games in seasons 1 and 2, but had longer careers than those who did not have the operation. I don't think it really says very much about how having the surgery affected a player's performance before and after surgery.

[Chicago-Bull-E]

Only amongst Chicago sports fans would a vegan diet be considered a negative. Denver fans would probably be ecstatic.

This board:

[johnnyvann840]

Here's a study on NBA players with lumbar discectomy: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4702156/

In short:

By the second postoperative season, players are able to return to the level of play in terms of games played per season and PER, as the control cohort and career longevity is not significantly affected.

Hmmm. So the first year post-OP is an adjustment year, but there is reason for long term optimism based on this study. In addition it said in there that return to play rates were high. And that surgically treated patients actually did better than non-surgically treated in terms of years played. But performance based on PER was the same:

Conclusion
Regardless of treatment type, players had similar rates of return to play. While operatively treated players had a decline in games played and PER during the first postoperative season, no difference in either statistic was seen by the second season compared with controls. Nonoperatively treated players, in contrast, did not have a significantly greater decline in games played or PER, but had a shorter career length compared with controls

Cautions:

Selection bias toward more well-known players is also possible with the capture methods; however, the preindex PER (mean, 13.9 ± 3.8; range, 4.2-26.1) is similar to the league PER (mean, 15.0; range, 5.2-29.9 in the 2013-2014 season), suggesting a representative sample of the entire NBA player population. Finally, the sample size in this study was relatively small, and because of this, definitive recommendations cannot be made

This study is encouraging, if you buy the relatively low sample size. Indicates while the first year is the key problem in terms of PER, long term performance and career length should be OK as far as return to form of surgically treated patients. Moral of the story, go get some corrective surgery rather than trying physical therapy rehab?

That study is actually a little discouraging. I saw that study and didn't post it because:

It's a study of 61 players ALL WHO HAVE HAD HERNIATED LUMBAR DISCS. It's not a comparison of players with back trouble vs. players without the problem. It is a study of people who have it treated with surgery vs. those who opt to NOT have surgery.

This is not a comparison of normal healthy players vs. players who have had herniated discs. It's just those who have had surgery vs. non-surgery for the same problem.

What the study shows is that while surgically treated patients have a slight overall decline in performance vs. those who don't have the surgery. It is worse by a little.

[johnnyvann840]

Here's a study on NBA players with lumbar discectomy: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4702156/

In short:

By the second postoperative season, players are able to return to the level of play in terms of games played per season and PER, as the control cohort and career longevity is not significantly affected.

Hmmm. So the first year post-OP is an adjustment year, but there is reason for long term optimism based on this study. In addition it said in there that return to play rates were high. And that surgically treated patients actually did better than non-surgically treated in terms of years played. But performance based on PER was the same:

Conclusion
Regardless of treatment type, players had similar rates of return to play. While operatively treated players had a decline in games played and PER during the first postoperative season, no difference in either statistic was seen by the second season compared with controls. Nonoperatively treated players, in contrast, did not have a significantly greater decline in games played or PER, but had a shorter career length compared with controls

Cautions:

Selection bias toward more well-known players is also possible with the capture methods; however, the preindex PER (mean, 13.9 ± 3.8; range, 4.2-26.1) is similar to the league PER (mean, 15.0; range, 5.2-29.9 in the 2013-2014 season), suggesting a representative sample of the entire NBA player population. Finally, the sample size in this study was relatively small, and because of this, definitive recommendations cannot be made

This study is encouraging, if you buy the relatively low sample size. Indicates while the first year is the key problem in terms of PER, long term performance should be OK as far as return to form of surgically treated patients. Moral of the story, go get some corrective surgery rather than trying physical therapy rehab?

Mmmm. I'm no statistician, but I don't think that this study is saying what you interpret it to say. The purpose of the study was to compare surgical v. non-surgical interventions for disc injuries. They completely excluded from the analysis the 20% of the players who did not return to play. Then they compared differences in performance between those who were operated on and those who were not. The key conclusion was that those who were operated on missed more games in seasons 1 and 2, but had longer careers than those who did not have the operation. I don't think it really says very much about how having the surgery affected a player's performance before and after surgery.

EXACTLY.

More importantly everyone tested had lumbar disc herniation. This wasn't comparing players with LDH vs. normal healthy players.

And yes, as you say, the study did not include the 20% of players who NEVER even played again. So, yeah.

[fleet]

Mmmm. I'm no statistician, but I don't think that this study is saying what you interpret it to say. The purpose of the study was to compare surgical v. non-surgical interventions for disc injuries.

Yes. And also to compare them to a control group

They completely excluded from the analysis the 20% of the players who did not return to play.

We don't need to worry about them. Porter has already returned to play. And we really dont need to worry about them once he suits up. His workouts are gonna be a pretty good indicator for that occurring.

Then they compared differences in performance between those who were operated on and those who were not. The key conclusion was that those who were operated on missed more games in seasons 1 and 2, but had longer careers than those who did not have the operation. I don't think it really says very much about how having the surgery affected a player's performance before and after surgery.

Not only did they have longer careers than non surgical, their long term careers were not different than the control group according to PER and longevity. Yes, the 1st year is an adjustment year. ROY for Porter may not be a good bet.

[bad knees]

Only amongst Chicago sports fans would a vegan diet be considered a negative. Denver fans would probably be ecstatic.

This board:

I have nothing against a vegan diet. My concern is that MPJ says that, when he was part-Vegan, he had back pain when he played a couple of games four months after surgery. So now he is switching to a full raw vegan diet, in the hope that this will prevent his back pain from returning. Implicit in this approach is that the surgery, by itself, did not do the trick.

He does not know if this will work. He naturally hopes that it does. Whoever drafts him will have to believe that his hope will come true.

Given all the facts, this seems way too much of a risk. An NBA season is 82 games - even more when you count preseason and the playoffs (which hopefully will be in the Bulls future). And it seems to me that maintaining a full raw vegan diet while living the life of an NBA player would be almost impossible. Too many doubts that a raw vegan diet will cure the back problem that surgery did not, and too many doubts that he will be able to maintain that diet while on the road during an NBA season. I pass.

[fleet]

Here's a study on NBA players with lumbar discectomy: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4702156/

In short:

By the second postoperative season, players are able to return to the level of play in terms of games played per season and PER, as the control cohort and career longevity is not significantly affected.

Hmmm. So the first year post-OP is an adjustment year, but there is reason for long term optimism based on this study. In addition it said in there that return to play rates were high. And that surgically treated patients actually did better than non-surgically treated in terms of years played. But performance based on PER was the same:

Conclusion
Regardless of treatment type, players had similar rates of return to play. While operatively treated players had a decline in games played and PER during the first postoperative season, no difference in either statistic was seen by the second season compared with controls. Nonoperatively treated players, in contrast, did not have a significantly greater decline in games played or PER, but had a shorter career length compared with controls

Cautions:

Selection bias toward more well-known players is also possible with the capture methods; however, the preindex PER (mean, 13.9 ± 3.8; range, 4.2-26.1) is similar to the league PER (mean, 15.0; range, 5.2-29.9 in the 2013-2014 season), suggesting a representative sample of the entire NBA player population. Finally, the sample size in this study was relatively small, and because of this, definitive recommendations cannot be made

This study is encouraging, if you buy the relatively low sample size. Indicates while the first year is the key problem in terms of PER, long term performance and career length should be OK as far as return to form of surgically treated patients. Moral of the story, go get some corrective surgery rather than trying physical therapy rehab?

That study is actually a little discouraging. I saw that study and didn't post it because:

It's a study of 61 players ALL WHO HAVE HAD HERNIATED LUMBAR DISCS. It's not a comparison of players with back trouble vs. players without the problem. It is a study of people who have it treated with surgery vs. those who opt to NOT have surgery.

This is not a comparison of normal healthy players vs. players who have had herniated discs. It's just those who have had surgery vs. non-surgery for the same problem.

What the study shows is that while surgically treated patients have a slight overall decline in performance vs. those who don't have the surgery. It is worse by a little.

read it again. It is a study to analyze the effects on the players performance after this condition, after 2 kinds of rehab/treatment. Anyway.

This is the title of the study Johnny:

Outcomes After Lumbar Disc Herniation in the National Basketball Association



a flawed analysis was posted earlier. This one is pretty clearly relevant to Mr Porter's situation.