Love #5: P. 88, Bulls 'moving on' from Love

[Polynice4Pippen]

This is the part people don't understand. Taj is a really good player even at his age that everyone always wants to bring up.

This is the part Gar/Pax apparently don't understand since they've brought in an all-star PF this offseason, another highly touted PF, and are now inquiring about yet another PF.

And yet, the Bulls still only have 3 players on the roster at the 4 and 5 that have any NBA experience AT ALL! It's not we are loaded withg guys that are going to play over Taj. Jesus people. You all watched thegames. You hear hwo Thibs talks about him. He couldn't wait to get Boozer out of here so he could play him more.

Taj isn't going anywhere, unless it's in a package for Love.. and that ain't happening.

The Bulls and Gar and Pax are still very high on Taj. Thibs still is still talking like he may still start him. He wantsw to see the team on the floor first.

I'll put it on the line right now and say that I'll bet anyone right now, that Taj is a Bull on opening night, possibly even starting over Pau. Not likely, but it wouldnt surprise me. Not only that, I'll go ahead and say that he leads the team in minutes out of all the PF's and C's. go ahead and bookmark this... any takers?

Like I said, I don't see Portland or the Clippers pursuing and bringing in multiple all-star PF's.

[Ben]

Flip Saunders one year ago:


The Timberwolves were last in the league in 3-point shooting last season. The 6-foot-7 Martin shot a career-high 42.6 percent from behind the arc with the Thunder. He has averaged 20-plus points per game in five of his nine seasons in the NBA.

His production decreased with the Thunder, but Saunders chalked that up to the presence of Kevin Durant and Russell Westbrook. Saunders also brushed off any concern about Martin's defense, praising his shooting touch as a defensive weapon of its own.

"As Coach said, he feels in his system we can chalk in 18 points," Saunders said, referring to Martin's career scoring average.

Martin is expected to sign a four-year deal in the $30 million range, sources close to the process previously told ESPN.com's Marc Stein.


http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/9471752/kevin-martin-luke-ridnour-trade-involving-minnesota-timberwolves-oklahoma-city-thunder-milwaukee-bucks-official


Something's rotten in Denmark.

What's rotten is that Martin has most likely begun the inevitable, age-related decline. His 3P% went way down and his 2P FG% went WAY down from where they were in OKC and during his salad days. From what I understand, Wolves fans think that his defense is horrible. And he'll be paid quite well for the next 3 years.

I was fine with the idea of getting Martin if that were part of the price of getting Love, and I would do the kind of thing that bad_knees suggested if we could (sign 3 vets to unguaranteed contracts offer them mid-season to Minny for Martin, if he's still with their team). But I can't understand how many guys are eager to trade Taj for him. Right player, wrong year.

Hopefully that's not true of Pau as well.

[Shill]

He's a bum on defense. At least Dougie is going to try hard.

Are you describing Kevin Martin or Pau Gasol?

Because Pau hurt the Lakers defense more than Martin did the Wolves.

But I'm sure we'll hear some excuses, since only one of them is wearing a Bulls jersey now.

I'm describing Martin. Because he's been a bum on defense everywhere he's gone, and jokingly admitted it.

Pau was supposed to anchor those D'Antoni teams? At least he's been a big on a championship team. He's proven he can play defense. Consistently blocks 1.5 shots a game.

Martin is a zero if he isn't scoring.

[johnnyvann840]

This is the part Gar/Pax apparently don't understand since they've brought in an all-star PF this offseason, another highly touted PF, and are now inquiring about yet another PF.

And yet, the Bulls still only have 3 players on the roster at the 4 and 5 that have any NBA experience AT ALL! It's not we are loaded withg guys that are going to play over Taj. Jesus people. You all watched thegames. You hear hwo Thibs talks about him. He couldn't wait to get Boozer out of here so he could play him more.

Taj isn't going anywhere, unless it's in a package for Love.. and that ain't happening.

The Bulls and Gar and Pax are still very high on Taj. Thibs still is still talking like he may still start him. He wantsw to see the team on the floor first.

I'll put it on the line right now and say that I'll bet anyone right now, that Taj is a Bull on opening night, possibly even starting over Pau. Not likely, but it wouldnt surprise me. Not only that, I'll go ahead and say that he leads the team in minutes out of all the PF's and C's. go ahead and bookmark this... any takers?

Like I said, I don't see Portland or the Clippers pursuing and bringing in multiple all-star PF's.

So, do you want to bet, or not?

[kingkirk]

I have no clue what this even means.

Martin has been scoring high volume on high efficiency in this league since he came in. While he would average a couple less on great teams, it doesn't mean he doesn't have legit scoring talent.

It's clear what i meant. He is a good player, but his 20 points doesn't hurt you in the same way 20 from Wade would.

He is an accumulator who gets his. He is not a reliable 2nd option, and i question if he is reliable as a 3rd option as well.

He is a Jamal Crawford type player, or someone who i would put in that role. Again, i didn't say i would have him on this team, just not in a swap for Gibson, who is the better player.

I'd like to see Mike Dunleavy average 24 points on the Kings, or even 20 on the Rockets.

Not sure how this is relevant?

It's not his fault he was asked to be a first option over his head, no more than it's Deng's that we asked him to be a 2nd over his head.

You can say he's bad on defense, or doesn't rebound or critique other parts of his game, but that has nothing to do with the value of his points.

Hollow points to me are someone like Corey Maggette who makes his team worse on offense despite good numbers. Martin made his team's offense better.

The wolves had a 112.2 OFF RTG with Martin on the floor. That's better than the Spurs and Heat. I wish we could find some 'hollow' scoring like that.

You've become so obsessed with an answer at SG that you're overlooking other critiques of Martin as well. Even when he was scoring big in SAC and HOU, many questioned if he could ever be a key cog in an offense on a quality team.

He has failed to deliver.

You routinely cite Pau Gasol's demise in the playoffs, but in Martin's last playoff performance, playing next to the best player in the game not named Lebron James, in a similar role to what he would be here, his numbers were:

Code: Select all

PPG 14.0
RPG  3.1
APG  1.3
FG% 38.0
3P% 37.0
TS% 52.1
PER 14.2

Martin is a good player, but he is getting on in years, is often injured and can go missing. Again, so it is clear, i would take him on this team, but you only take him for the right price. Taj isn't that price.

[MrFortune3]

He's a bum on defense. At least Dougie is going to try hard.

Are you describing Kevin Martin or Pau Gasol?

Because Pau hurt the Lakers defense more than Martin did the Wolves.

But I'm sure we'll hear some excuses, since only one of them is wearing a Bulls jersey now.

D'Antoni doesn't coach defense so how exactly did Pau hurt them more than Martin when Martin is known to be one of the lazier defenders in the league and has been on every team he has played.

[Rerisen]

I'm describing Martin. Because he's been a bum on defense everywhere he's gone, and jokingly admitted it.

That video where he said he didn't focus on defense because he had to score? Well sounds like an excuse to me, but it wouldn't be the first player to do that (Kobe, and even Derrick Rose imo).

He's never going to be a good defender. But the worrying thing with Pau is he once was, but hasn't been lately.

Now the reason given is that he 'didn't try' because he didn't like the 'system'. The same thing you just lauded McDermott for over Kevin Martin, that he's going to at least 'try'.

Martin is a zero if he isn't scoring.

But he's almost always scoring.

I wouldn't get hung up on Martin, he is just a throw in that we will find very useful if we get Kevin Love.

If we don't get Kevin Love, you don't trade Taj for him. Maybe Mike Dunleavy and parts.

[AKfanatic]

If they really valued Taj they would have given him the starting spot for real.

I've seem this stated by others, in various ways, a few times.

Perhaps they value him as a 6th man. It could be that they see the energy he brings and prefer him in a role that allows him to expend his energy in that frenetic way players off the bench often do. Or perhaps they, like many fans would prefer a more accomplished offensive player starting next to Jo with the option of bringing in Taj when Jo takes a seat and losing none of the defensive edge. Value isn't based on starting or coming off the bench. I mean do we really, truly believe they valued Carlos more last season because he started?

[Rerisen]

D'Antoni doesn't coach defense so how exactly did Pau hurt them more than Martin when Martin is known to be one of the lazier defenders in the league and has been on every team he has played.

Somehow the other players on the Lakers still knew how to play some defense despite the coach, and played it better without Pau.

The D'antoni excuses are just endless.

I don't know exactly how much Pau has left, but I have no doubt that he is in decline. How much, we will find out this year. But the difference from title version Pau, and even Phil Jackson Pau, to now, is not just Mike D'antoni.

34 year old players are really unchanged from being 30. Especially if evidence is already there that they aren't. And anyone who thinks that is the case here, probably setting up for a big disappointment.

[kingkirk]

Pau is clearly a more accomplished player than Taj. He will be our starting PF next season. So yes, he's in front of Taj. Taj remains a 6th man candidate though, but Pau's the starter.

Starting or not, it doesn't mean Taj's value has plummeted because the FO have brought in Gasol to start at PF.

Gasol will also see minutes at the C spot as well. Taj has not been relegated. His role will be the same.

People are creating a mountain out of a molehill in relation to our front court given the gap we have on the wing.

There are 24 minutes as a base for Noah, Taj & Pau at the start of the season. The rest of the minutes will be distributed as per match ups, injuries etc.

This notion that Pau and Noah are going to be logging 35+ minutes is silly.

Gibson can be on the block for a wing, but let's not pretend that if he starts the season with the Bulls, that a role doesn't exist for him and that Thibodeau will have him rotting away on the pine.

[Polynice4Pippen]

And yet, the Bulls still only have 3 players on the roster at the 4 and 5 that have any NBA experience AT ALL! It's not we are loaded withg guys that are going to play over Taj. Jesus people. You all watched thegames. You hear hwo Thibs talks about him. He couldn't wait to get Boozer out of here so he could play him more.

Taj isn't going anywhere, unless it's in a package for Love.. and that ain't happening.

The Bulls and Gar and Pax are still very high on Taj. Thibs still is still talking like he may still start him. He wantsw to see the team on the floor first.

I'll put it on the line right now and say that I'll bet anyone right now, that Taj is a Bull on opening night, possibly even starting over Pau. Not likely, but it wouldnt surprise me. Not only that, I'll go ahead and say that he leads the team in minutes out of all the PF's and C's. go ahead and bookmark this... any takers?

Like I said, I don't see Portland or the Clippers pursuing and bringing in multiple all-star PF's.

So, do you want to bet, or not?

Bet for what? Gar/Pax have been going after all-star PF's for a reason. Not my feeling but theirs.

[Rerisen]

Perhaps they value him as a 6th man. It could be that they see the energy he brings and prefer him in a role that allows him to expend his energy in that frenetic way players off the bench often do

He is still going to be squeezed even as a 6th man. Or else Mirotic is, and we are paying almost 6m for him. I don't want to pay 6m to a player who doesn't play, when we are trying to win right now.

But if he does play, we are looking at minute squeezes all over the place. I don't think even think Noah should be dropped below 33mpg. I don't think he needs to, I don't think it makes us better, and I don't think it really ups his chances greatly of making it to the playoffs uninjured.

Noah 33 | Pau 15
Gibson 28 | Pau 13 | Mirotic 7

5.5m dollars for 7 minutes?!?!

Lot's of wasted minutes there. Probably about 15 in all, and to afford this luxury of wasting we have to trot out likely two subpar offensive wings.

[Shill]

I'm describing Martin. Because he's been a bum on defense everywhere he's gone, and jokingly admitted it.

That video where he said he didn't focus on defense because he had to score? Well sounds like an excuse to me, but it wouldn't be the first player to do that (Kobe, and even Derrick Rose imo).

He's never going to be a good defender. But the worrying thing with Pau is he once was, but hasn't been lately.

Now the reason given is that he 'didn't try' because he didn't like the 'system'. The same thing you just lauded McDermott for over Kevin Martin, that he's going to at least 'try'.

The funny thing is in that video Martin said he was going to start trying on defense, and he still didn't. And that was two teams ago.

There's a reasonable expectation that Pau will try on defense. Because he's done it before. Martin hasn't, and won't, as you pointed out.

[kingkirk]

If we don't get Kevin Love, you don't trade Taj for him. Maybe Mike Dunleavy and parts.

This whole eruption over the last 2 pages started in a Taj vs Martin comparison, not as a Martin being part of a package for Love.

[Polynice4Pippen]

Pau is clearly a more accomplished player than Taj. He will be our starting PF next season. So yes, he's in front of Taj. Taj remains a 6th man candidate though, but Pau's the starter.

Starting or not, it doesn't mean Taj's value has plummeted because the FO have brought in Gasol to start at PF.

Gasol will also see minutes at the C spot as well. Taj has not been relegated. His role will be the same.

People are creating a mountain out of a molehill in relation to our front court given the gap we have on the wing.

There are 24 minutes as a base for Noah, Taj & Pau at the start of the season. The rest of the minutes will be distributed as per match ups, injuries etc.

This notion that Pau and Noah are going to be logging 35+ minutes is silly.

Gibson can be on the block for a wing, but let's not pretend that if he starts the season with the Bulls, that a role doesn't exist for him and that Thibodeau will have him rotting away on the pine.

Maybe in the regular season but not in the playoffs. Noah's playing 36-40 minutes a night come playoff time. And if Pau is healthy and is in all-star form he'll be playing 35 minutes as well because an all-star version of Pau>Taj.

[johnnyvann840]

He's a bum on defense. At least Dougie is going to try hard.

Are you describing Kevin Martin or Pau Gasol?

Because Pau hurt the Lakers defense more than Martin did the Wolves.

But I'm sure we'll hear some excuses, since only one of them is wearing a Bulls jersey now.

I'm describing Martin. Because he's been a bum on defense everywhere he's gone, and jokingly admitted it.

Pau was supposed to anchor those D'Antoni teams? At least he's been a big on a championship team. He's proven he can play defense. Consistently blocks 1.5 shots a game.

Martin is a zero if he isn't scoring.

This is what makes my blood boil.. he was laughing about how bad his defense is.. and then his view of being a player was, and I loosely quote... "I'm just out there thinking about one thing. winning my matchup" .

WTF? So he thinks the NBA is a one on one and if you score more than the other SG, it's automatically good for your team.. It's not SG vs SG... or C vs C. It's TEAM vs TEAM.... forget about switching on D...forget about help... forget about stopping the ball at the point of attack... forget about taking away the other guys space.. just shoot as much as I can and hope i score more points than the other SG.... forget about setting picks and making the right pass... forget about putting up any resistance AT ALL to the other team scoring if it's not your man. These are thewords of a loser and a player with ZERO basketball IQ.. Martin talks like a pussy and he looks one and he plays like one.

[Rerisen]

The funny thing is in that video Martin said he was going to start trying on defense, and he still didn't. And that was two teams ago.

There's a reasonable expectation that Pau will try on defense. Because he's done it before. Martin hasn't, and won't, as you pointed out.

Pau strikes me as a quality guy, not a quitter.

His defense is worse just because his mobility is worse due to the leg and foot injuries over the years. He's also never been the most physical guy.

Luckily we'll have Noah to hide him and it won't be as big a problem here. Just like we have Jimmy Butler to hide Kevin Martin if we get him, or to continue to hide Mike Dunleavy and Doug McDermott.

Basically we are making tradeoffs for offense no matter what we do at this point. We are way down on options. If we had signed a two way player that scored and defended, like Lance Stephenson, the whole team would function so much better and more easily rotation wise. But we didn't so here we are.

[johnnyvann840]

Like I said, I don't see Portland or the Clippers pursuing and bringing in multiple all-star PF's.

So, do you want to bet, or not?

Bet for what? Gar/Pax have been going after all-star PF's for a reason. Not my feeling but theirs.

Winner picks the losers avy for a month. Silly, but could be fun.

[Rerisen]

If we don't get Kevin Love, you don't trade Taj for him. Maybe Mike Dunleavy and parts.

This whole eruption over the last 2 pages started in a Taj vs Martin comparison, not as a Martin being part of a package for Love.

Those weren't the parts I was responding to though.

[kingkirk]

Maybe in the regular season but not in the playoffs. Noah's playing 36-40 minutes a night come playoff time. And if Pau is healthy and is in all-star form he'll be playing 35 minutes as well because an all-star version of Pau>Taj.

If both Pau and Noah are playing 35 minutes in the playoff, there is still 26 minutes for Taj.

Thibs won't be gifting Mirotic minutes come playoff time if he hasn't earned it, contract or not.