2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th: PT 2

[PlayerUp]

The cons

- He isn't super athletic
- Lacks that speed burst
- Left hand dominant
- Needs to continue working on his handles and turnovers

I feel like Hayes' weaknesses are getting hand-waved too easily, when they seem very troubling for a prospect deemed to be a 'primary ballhandler'.

Athleticism: Hayes in the athletic LNB was a disaster, in the much slower BBL he looked promising. What's his transition going to look like in the NBA?

First step: Coby White could be a lead guard and thrive in the PnR if only he had a first step, but Hayes' is even worse.

Right hand: I wouldn't fault teenage prospects for needing to work on their weak-hand, but again Hayes is being touted as a 'lead guard'/'primary ballhandler' and his proficiency passing with his right hand is abysmal.

Hayes' NBA role to me is as a 3nD guard and tertiary ballhandler, which Haliburton does much much better.

Even though I agree on Hayes weaknesses (though not on the intensity), tertiary ball handler doesn't fit the bill. He's a 19yo main ball handler on a pro league. When comparing him to Hali, who has a much harder time creating his own shot against a set defense, you can see his advantage in P&R situations.
Hali is a very interesting prospect. But when comparing him to Hayes, if I had to guess that one of them would only work as a secondary ball handler, it would be Hali.

I'll plug this awesome in depth analysis of Hayes game that I found on PD Web's (https://www.patreon.com/user?u=24373441) patreon page that addresses these concerns.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1K4pWh6JnouEkE_cwfZRpNV40ncR-DHouWCWJuU6cQ70/edit?usp=sharing

Hali also looks very fragile and his legs are skinny. Hate his form as well but somehow it goes in. They are comparable in many ways but at the end of the day you have to go for upside and Hayes has a bit more upside imo.

[CjayC]

Yeah we'd be better off if White was more explosive, but my main issue with him is the lack passing instincts, at least with the way this team is set up right now. If he was the same guy, but a better passer I'd have no problem with him leading the team since he projects to be a good shotmaker, and his handle looks much improved from the UNC days.

[MrFortune3]

Yeah we'd be better off if White was more explosive, but my main issue with him is the lack passing instincts, at least with the way this team is set up right now. If he was the same guy, but a better passer I'd have no problem with him leading the team since he projects to be a good shotmaker, and his handle looks much improved from the UNC days.

I think the primary issue with that is the roles he's been asked to play at UNC and his rookie year in Chicago.
He was tasked with scoring the ball rather than running an offense and setting up his teammates. ****, LaVine is the only other guy who can get his own shot outside of Coby anyway.

[gobullschi]

Yeah we'd be better off if White was more explosive, but my main issue with him is the lack passing instincts, at least with the way this team is set up right now. If he was the same guy, but a better passer I'd have no problem with him leading the team since he projects to be a good shotmaker, and his handle looks much improved from the UNC days.

I think the primary issue with that is the roles he's been asked to play at UNC and his rookie year in Chicago.
He was tasked with scoring the ball rather than running an offense and setting up his teammates. ****, LaVine is the only other guy who can get his own shot outside of Coby anyway.

We have no idea how good of a passer Coby White is because he didn’t have anyone to pass to. It was LaVine and White carrying the offense.

[TheHrvReport]

Watch on YouTube

Another evaluator basically saying Avdija will never be an all-star type player. Projected him to have Joe Ingles/Dario Saric level of success in the NBA. ie. starters but not all-stars.

[Ugly Duckling]

I’m looking at all of the point guards in this draft. Ball, Haliburton and Hayes would be great. Ball for all the hate he gets does absolutely everything better than our starting pg last season. It’s a win win situation no matter how you slice it. I guess that’s the good thing about having the worst starting pg in the NBA from last season. There’s nowhere to go but up.

Ball I'd take a chance on if he fell, but Haliburton and Hayes don't have enough upside for me personally. I'd rather run Coby at the point and take the BPA

I don’t blame you. Drafting Hayes that high gives me bad vibes. He might have improved a lot though in these last 6 months so I’m trusting AK to make the right decision. I just don’t see him beating out Coby or Lavine in the backcourt. Haliburton is intriguing but taking him at 4 is alittle risky.

Hayes and Haliburton are both interesting players though. Hayes looks to have more upside and Haliburton with the higher floor. I wouldn't be mad at picking either, but I want to swing for the fences with this pick. AK was instrumental in putting this Nuggets roster together, so I'm interested to see which way he goes

[MrSparkle]

Watch on YouTube

Another evaluator basically saying Avdija will never be an all-star type player. Projected him to have Joe Ingles/Dario Saric level of success in the NBA. ie. starters but not all-stars.

Saric isn't even a starter. I get the comparison loosely, but I don't see Ingles at all. Ingles is a shooting specialist and was a very late NBA rookie (27yo), not being a relevant full-time starter until he was 30yo.

If a 19-20yo can basically out-dribble, pass and defend his fully-developed 32yo veteran comparison, then it's not an apt comparison. When you've got a really young player who can create plays on moderate usage and defend in the NBA, he's got star potential. Dario is a soft defender and isn't even close to SF foot-speed or handles - I'm not confident, but I get the sense Deni is significantly better in both areas. If Dario had speed and SF flexibility, he'd still be starting in Philly IMO. They realized he's a situational 1-trick guy.

I still go with my Khryapa-meets-Nocioni comparison for Deni -- he looks like he'll be a tough, team-oriented all-around starter who has some very slick passing skills (Khryapa). If you get an early starting job in the NBA at 20-22yo, you are atleast in conversation for (eventually) all-star. Of course there are the tread-mill types like Barnes and Marvin Williams who did start early, but they were drafted for physical potential, not skills.

You're drafting Deni for his point-forward skills - to me he really is a boom or bust pick. If he can hang with NBA SFs, I don't see how he has role-player ceiling. The only 2 Bulls remotely capable of doing what Deni does in his passing highlights are Valentine and Arci, and physically there's no comparison.

But I definitely see reason to pump the brakes. There's a legit chance his shooting and first-step are below-average at the NBA level. I can't tell.

So on another note, they keep talking about LaMelo as a PG. Is there any reason to see this guy as a career 6'7 SF if he puts 20 lb. on that frame? I don't like the idea of playing this guy at the 1 alongside wings, but if he adds to that frame and just moves up to forward, it's a whole other story.

[TheHrvReport]

Watch on YouTube

Another evaluator basically saying Avdija will never be an all-star type player. Projected him to have Joe Ingles/Dario Saric level of success in the NBA. ie. starters but not all-stars.

Saric isn't even a starter. I get the comparison loosely, but I don't see Ingles at all. Ingles is a shooting specialist and was a very late NBA rookie (27yo), not being a relevant full-time starter until he was 30yo.

If a 19-20yo can basically out-dribble, pass and defend his fully-developed 32yo veteran comparison, then it's not an apt comparison. When you've got a really young player who can create plays on moderate usage and defend in the NBA, he's got star potential. Dario is a soft defender and isn't even close to SF foot-speed or handles - I'm not confident, but I get the sense Deni is significantly better in both areas. If Dario had speed and SF flexibility, he'd still be starting in Philly IMO. They realized he's a situational 1-trick guy.

I still go with my Khryapa-meets-Nocioni comparison for Deni -- he looks like he'll be a tough, team-oriented all-around starter who has some very slick passing skills (Khryapa). If you get an early starting job in the NBA at 20-22yo, you are atleast in conversation for (eventually) all-star. Of course there are the tread-mill types like Barnes and Marvin Williams who did start early, but they were drafted for physical potential, not skills.

You're drafting Deni for his point-forward skills - to me he really is a boom or bust pick. If he can hang with NBA SFs, I don't see how he has role-player ceiling. The only 2 Bulls remotely capable of doing what Deni does in his passing highlights are Valentine and Arci, and physically there's no comparison.

But I definitely see reason to pump the brakes. There's a legit chance his shooting and first-step are below-average at the NBA level. I can't tell.

So on another note, they keep talking about LaMelo as a PG. Is there any reason to see this guy as a career 6'7 SF if he puts 20 lb. on that frame? I don't like the idea of playing this guy at the 1 alongside wings, but if he adds to that frame and just moves up to forward, it's a whole other story.

I agree. I think he meant level of impact with the comparison to those two, not the actual playing style. At any rate, we need more upside with a player if we are picking at #4.

[CjayC]

Yeah we'd be better off if White was more explosive, but my main issue with him is the lack passing instincts, at least with the way this team is set up right now. If he was the same guy, but a better passer I'd have no problem with him leading the team since he projects to be a good shotmaker, and his handle looks much improved from the UNC days.

I think the primary issue with that is the roles he's been asked to play at UNC and his rookie year in Chicago.
He was tasked with scoring the ball rather than running an offense and setting up his teammates. ****, LaVine is the only other guy who can get his own shot outside of Coby anyway.

We have no idea how good of a passer Coby White is because he didn’t have anyone to pass to. It was LaVine and White carrying the offense.

Maybe he will devrlop iy, but because of the role he's played as a primary scorer his whole life as a player I'm not counting on him just waking up one day with the vision. Despite the Bulls being a **** team it's not like he didn't have the chance at UNC.

[scottyg]

Trade for Chris Paul and Demar Derozan, draft Deni and let deni and Coby white come off the bench for 2 seasons and they will have nice chemistry to take over the team ! Let’Lavine have some more freedom and play off the ball and Let Markannen have time to grow into his role !

[AdonalFoyle4Prez]

Hi guys, Warriors fan here. Would you guys do the following?:

#4 + Lauri Markkenan + Tomas Satoransky for #2 + Eric Paschal + Jordan Poole + Kevon Looney

[kodo]

Hi guys, Warriors fan here. Would you guys do the following?:

#4 + Lauri Markkenan + Tomas Satoransky for #2 + Eric Paschal + Jordan Poole + Kevon Looney

Probably but I thought the Warriors were trading for someone proven not a draft pick who might need 2-3 years.

[MrFortune3]

I think the primary issue with that is the roles he's been asked to play at UNC and his rookie year in Chicago.
He was tasked with scoring the ball rather than running an offense and setting up his teammates. ****, LaVine is the only other guy who can get his own shot outside of Coby anyway.

We have no idea how good of a passer Coby White is because he didn’t have anyone to pass to. It was LaVine and White carrying the offense.

Maybe he will devrlop iy, but because of the role he's played as a primary scorer his whole life as a player I'm not counting on him just waking up one day with the vision. Despite the Bulls being a **** team it's not like he didn't have the chance at UNC.

Dame didn't pass much in college either. He was a scoring PG and he developed into more of a passer in the NBA.

[MrFortune3]

Yeah we'd be better off if White was more explosive, but my main issue with him is the lack passing instincts, at least with the way this team is set up right now. If he was the same guy, but a better passer I'd have no problem with him leading the team since he projects to be a good shotmaker, and his handle looks much improved from the UNC days.

I think the primary issue with that is the roles he's been asked to play at UNC and his rookie year in Chicago.
He was tasked with scoring the ball rather than running an offense and setting up his teammates. ****, LaVine is the only other guy who can get his own shot outside of Coby anyway.

We have no idea how good of a passer Coby White is because he didn’t have anyone to pass to. It was LaVine and White carrying the offense.

I don't have any worries about Coby's ability to play make and pass the ball. He was never asked to play that role so he will be moved into it once the new coach comes in. He's adjusted before so I suspect he will again.

[GimmeDat]

Watch on YouTube

Another evaluator basically saying Avdija will never be an all-star type player. Projected him to have Joe Ingles/Dario Saric level of success in the NBA. ie. starters but not all-stars.

Saric isn't even a starter. I get the comparison loosely, but I don't see Ingles at all. Ingles is a shooting specialist and was a very late NBA rookie (27yo), not being a relevant full-time starter until he was 30yo.

If a 19-20yo can basically out-dribble, pass and defend his fully-developed 32yo veteran comparison, then it's not an apt comparison. When you've got a really young player who can create plays on moderate usage and defend in the NBA, he's got star potential. Dario is a soft defender and isn't even close to SF foot-speed or handles - I'm not confident, but I get the sense Deni is significantly better in both areas. If Dario had speed and SF flexibility, he'd still be starting in Philly IMO. They realized he's a situational 1-trick guy.

I still go with my Khryapa-meets-Nocioni comparison for Deni -- he looks like he'll be a tough, team-oriented all-around starter who has some very slick passing skills (Khryapa). If you get an early starting job in the NBA at 20-22yo, you are atleast in conversation for (eventually) all-star. Of course there are the tread-mill types like Barnes and Marvin Williams who did start early, but they were drafted for physical potential, not skills.

You're drafting Deni for his point-forward skills - to me he really is a boom or bust pick. If he can hang with NBA SFs, I don't see how he has role-player ceiling. The only 2 Bulls remotely capable of doing what Deni does in his passing highlights are Valentine and Arci, and physically there's no comparison.

But I definitely see reason to pump the brakes. There's a legit chance his shooting and first-step are below-average at the NBA level. I can't tell.

So on another note, they keep talking about LaMelo as a PG. Is there any reason to see this guy as a career 6'7 SF if he puts 20 lb. on that frame? I don't like the idea of playing this guy at the 1 alongside wings, but if he adds to that frame and just moves up to forward, it's a whole other story.

The comparison's in terms of Deni's projection though, not his current game. Ingles game, particularly his passing, is much stronger than Deni right now. I wouldn't call Ingles a shooting specialist, he's basically a point-forward in his own right. Particularly early in his career, when he hadn't lost all his athleticism, he was a pretty well rounded scorer who could self-create/shoot off the dribble, finish at the rim, etc... right now he's an elite shooter, but he's also extremely savvy and a high level PnR player.

Fwiw I don't agree with the Ingles comparison, I think they're very different players. I didn't see Noc play much because of my age but I think that's a closer comparison.

As for LaMelo/PG v wing, I know he's tall, but his actual body/strength/movement wise has never felt like he could play wing to me.. on top of that has next to no value off the ball so I wouldn't do it.

[AdonalFoyle4Prez]

Hi guys, Warriors fan here. Would you guys do the following?:

#4 + Lauri Markkenan + Tomas Satoransky for #2 + Eric Paschal + Jordan Poole + Kevon Looney

Probably but I thought the Warriors were trading for someone proven not a draft pick who might need 2-3 years.

I think to be able to facilitate a successful trade, we'd need to include Wiggins. But, most teams aren't even going to listen if we mention him, haha.

[PlayerUp]

Trade for Chris Paul and Demar Derozan, draft Deni and let deni and Coby white come off the bench for 2 seasons and they will have nice chemistry to take over the team ! Let’Lavine have some more freedom and play off the ball and Let Markannen have time to grow into his role !

This is Gar/Pax mindset right here. What you're proposing we do above builds a playoff team, not a contender. You're adding 30+ year old vets which requires us giving up assets as well. This didn't work for the last 5+ seasons under Gar/Pax but you want to try it again?

DeRozan (31)
Paul (35)

Congrats. You built a team that will lose in the 1st round for the next 2-3 seasons.

[wolffy]

I think the primary issue with that is the roles he's been asked to play at UNC and his rookie year in Chicago.
He was tasked with scoring the ball rather than running an offense and setting up his teammates. ****, LaVine is the only other guy who can get his own shot outside of Coby anyway.

We have no idea how good of a passer Coby White is because he didn’t have anyone to pass to. It was LaVine and White carrying the offense.

Maybe he will devrlop iy, but because of the role he's played as a primary scorer his whole life as a player I'm not counting on him just waking up one day with the vision. Despite the Bulls being a **** team it's not like he didn't have the chance at UNC.

I dont see him ever as a pg because his instincts are that of a scorer. Maybe a secondary handler is good enough

[PlayerUp]

Projected him to have Joe Ingles/Dario Saric level of success in the NBA. ie. starters but not all-stars.

To be fair here, literally this entire draft from top to bottom has no clear all star talents in it. There is no for sure thing in this draft. Every player in the lottery will need to heavily develop in the NBA if they're going to be a star. That's why it's a must we select a prospect that has shown significant improvement recently, workaholic, high basketball IQ, has a high ceiling and we believe can heavily advance his game at the next level.

Every draft has their gems and this draft is no exception.

[drosereturn]

Hi guys, Warriors fan here. Would you guys do the following?:

#4 + Lauri Markkenan + Tomas Satoransky for #2 + Eric Paschal + Jordan Poole + Kevon Looney

no only for Carter.