Butler calls out Hoiberg / Update pg 33: KC releases negative report on Jimmy

[musiqsoulchild]

In the same week that Rose and Noah BOTH showed signs that they could be playoff caliber contributors......

Jimmy brings this upon the team that he has appointed himself to lead.

This ain't the Tomball Annual Barbecque Meet and Greet, Jimmy.

[kingkirk]

It’s kind of annoying seeing people getting on Fred for being a soft players coach when there are a lot of players coaches in this league that have been and currently are exactly that.

At what point do we stop blaming the coaches, or even the front office, and start actually looking at the players as the root cause here?

Fred has his flaws. Management haven’t built a perfect roster, but that shouldn’t excuse the players that are here from not giving a crap consistently. That’s on them. To me, it’s that simple.

[musiqsoulchild]

Well now its a bit early to forecast that. I think something will come out of this.

Hopefully a reckoning.

If they just try to brush under the table, low key Fred style so far, its probably going to keep festering.

You have no idea what Fred's style is, or what he has been saying to the team. Because he keeps that private, as a professional head coach should. there may be a time when the boss needs to call out a player publicly, but in the first 25 games for a new coach with a new team it likely isn't the best approach.

Maybe Jimmy doesn't even know the conversations Fred has had? If Fred has a "hard coach" conversation with a player it is also professional NOT to share that with his teammates and co-workers.

Maybe Fred, who is being paid to be a head coach, has a different idea of how to handle his players than Jimmy, who has never coached anything and is being paid to play SG? Maybe Fred is assessing all of their personalities and handling each individual appropriately but differently, which is what a good leader and Manager does?

Fred Hoiberg is being paid to be GarPax's puppet. The Bulls are full of puppets.....Paxson if JR's puppet, Forman is most definitely Paxson's puppet, and now Freddy is Forman's puppet.....they should the Chicago Puppets moving forward.

Better the Chicago Puppets than the Chicago Turncoats.

[Indomitable]

A day later and I still don't understand what Jimmy was trying to accomplish by doing this.

It was a frustration tantrum. People trying to defend the tantrum is what gets me.

No reason to call out Hoiberg, he should have just said what he wanted to say, which is that Derrick Rose is the root of the problem.

ignore time

[musiqsoulchild]

Well now its a bit early to forecast that. I think something will come out of this.

Hopefully a reckoning.

If they just try to brush under the table, low key Fred style so far, its probably going to keep festering.

You have no idea what Fred's style is, or what he has been saying to the team. Because he keeps that private, as a professional head coach should. there may be a time when the boss needs to call out a player publicly, but in the first 25 games for a new coach with a new team it likely isn't the best approach.

Maybe Jimmy doesn't even know the conversations Fred has had? If Fred has a "hard coach" conversation with a player it is also professional NOT to share that with his teammates and co-workers.

Maybe Fred, who is being paid to be a head coach, has a different idea of how to handle his players than Jimmy, who has never coached anything and is being paid to play SG? Maybe Fred is assessing all of their personalities and handling each individual appropriately but differently, which is what a good leader and Manager does?

Fred Hoiberg is being paid to be GarPax's puppet. The Bulls are full of puppets.....Paxson if JR's puppet, Forman is most definitely Paxson's puppet, and now Freddy is Forman's puppet.....they should the Chicago Puppets moving forward.

Better the Chicago Puppets than the Chicago Turncoats.

[BoozerRoNo]

Butler's comments are great. Detrimental is Rose saying I take games off, its about life after basketball, I'm looking at 2017 free agency.

Butler is talking about Rose, Snell, and Mirotic but can't come out and and say his teammates names so he goes at the coach who needs to yell at these dudes that aren't playing hard every night. Rose is playing like the worst star in the league, Snell is playing like he shouldn't be in the NBA, and Mirotic is looking like a scrub compared to by Bobby Portis. No one is saying anything when Butler has to go out every night play defense, play the most minutes, be our best player, etc and y'all want him to not say a thing because its all about Derrick Rose taking his time recovering and bring up trade proposals for Butler are hardest working player on the team but keeo the slacker Derrick Rose.

If Rose Snell and Mirotic do t turn it around by January Bulls need to trade them for guys that

[Rerisen]

At what point do we stop blaming the coaches, or even the front office, and start actually looking at the players as the root cause here?

*Raises Hand*

Many of us were blaming the players last year, while the other half would have none of it, convinced Thibs was a screw up, just not progressing the rooks, controlling Rose, and all the parts were in place for legit contention.

But end of the day, the FO put together this collection of players.

All those players everyone is finally realizing aren't that great, that quit on the last coach, are the same ones the FO brought back 1 through 12. They obviously didn't understand it was the players.

Why is it, when something turns out good, its the FO credit for drafting them, signing them, etc, but when things start to go down the pooper, the FO names are nowhere to be found and just the players and coaches are malcontents out of nowhere.

This organization didn't get along with Ben Wallace, didn't get along with Rose post injuries, and now isn't getting along with Butler. I thought Wallace was just a bum, but seems a worrying trend when you can't get on the same page with your best players.

[Dajody10]

It was a frustration tantrum. People trying to defend the tantrum is what gets me.

No reason to call out Hoiberg, he should have just said what he wanted to say, which is that Derrick Rose is the root of the problem.

ignore time

Reality is a hard thing to accept, the sooner you do the sooner you will understand what's going wrong here.

[R3AL1TY]

Seems like this is turning out to be more of a Jimmy vs. Rose discussion than Jimmy vs. Fred.

Because that what the true intention of his comments last night.

We can only speculate unless he man up and be honest about it behind doors. Him not being honest of his true feelings will only lead him to break more protocols to stir up reactions.

[Dajody10]

Seems like this is turning out to be more of a Jimmy vs. Rose discussion than Jimmy vs. Fred.

Because that what the true intention of his comments last night.

We can only speculate unless he man up and be honest about it behind doors. Him not being honest of his true feelings will only lead him to break more protocols to stir up reactions.

Agree with this too, Butler has to man up and say what he really thinks.

[Ajosu]

We don't know yet how Fred will evolve as a coach, but I'm pretty sure Vinny still had a lot of defenders at this early stage too.

Many ways this could go yet, where we look back and end up understanding why Butler said what he did.

Just to be clear, I'm not defending how Fred is doing as a coach (nor am I absolving anyone else within the organization of responsibility). Doesn't matter to me if Butler's criticism is accurate. In my book, he's still wrong for going about it this way.

[Chi town]

Jimmy Butler wasn't lost by Fred. His head just grew bigger and bigger... and he doesn't like Fred's offense. The one everyone else in the world was clamoring for but Jimmy doesn't want to play.

He has benched Niko, and consistently been decreasing his playing time.
He has attempted to limit Brooks playing time.
I expect he would bench Snell if he thought he had a better option.
Are you suggesting he should bench Rose? Or who else are you wanting demoted?

You mention Pau. You were one of the most vocal Thibs detractors last season because he "kept forcing the ball to Pau in the post". Now you are criticizing Fred because he doesn't keep forcing the ball into Pau in the post?

This. The only thing Jimmy has grown is a bigger mouth.

Kirk has gone back to no impact playing hurt Kirk. You can't bench Rose because Brooks is so bad.

We need to reset. We will get better and go on a run but it won't be enough to get past CLE. You have to move a big to make room for Portis. I'd trade Taj or Pau and start Portis. Noah is better off the bench w Dougie.

[greenl]

It doesn't change the fact that he was pompous, childish and unprofessional.

Opinion- not fact. Strongly held conviction by you- but opinion nonetheless. Others may interpret Jimmy's comments as an honest and much needed criticism of a locker room in malaise for the past 110 games. We have no idea how this will play in the locker room, although our collective inaccurate speculation and over reaction is half the fun, no?

Agree, though- that Jimmy should be suspended for game or two. He wants to call down the thunder- he's the first one up for discipline. And while I don't personally care for those who insist on a blind obedience to the chain of command (top down management is not the alpha and omega of organizational structure) in this case Fred would appear to have little choice.

[Rerisen]

Jimmy Butler wasn't lost by Fred. His head just grew bigger and bigger... and he doesn't like Fred's offense. The one everyone else in the world was clamoring for but Jimmy doesn't want to play.

He has benched Niko, and consistently been decreasing his playing time.
He has attempted to limit Brooks playing time.
I expect he would bench Snell if he thought he had a better option.
Are you suggesting he should bench Rose? Or who else are you wanting demoted?

You mention Pau. You were one of the most vocal Thibs detractors last season because he "kept forcing the ball to Pau in the post". Now you are criticizing Fred because he doesn't keep forcing the ball into Pau in the post?

This. The only thing Jimmy has grown is a bigger mouth.

Kirk has gone back to no impact playing hurt Kirk. You can't bench Rose because Brooks is so bad.

We need to reset. We will get better and go on a run but it won't be enough to get past CLE. You have to move a big to make room for Portis. I'd trade Taj or Pau and start Portis. Noah is better off the bench w Dougie.

I think you gave a better answer than me.

I said things I would like to see Fred change about this team this year.

But bigger picture, you are right on, its time to move on with this cast, and failure to appreciate that it doens't have the balance or talent the FO thinks is does, is likely at the root of these problems with Jimmy.

He falsely bought into that they should be a title worthy team, like most all players in the NBA like to think they have a chance, but his job is just to play, the FO job is to realize when its not working and cut bait.

Then Jimmy will see the reality and won't be bitching because he will realize this run is over.

[Stratmaster]

I assume that you don't like Snell in the starting lineup. McD had a couple good games and is disappearing again. I tend to agree with you, but what options does Fred really have?

We have a #2 defense and #27 offense.

Doug's strength is offense, weakness defense. It looks like an attempt to balance those ranks while increasing offense more than losing defense would be worth a try.

Jimmy Butler wasn't lost by Fred. His head just grew bigger and bigger... and he doesn't like Fred's offense. The one everyone else in the world was clamoring for but Jimmy doesn't want to play.

I don't think we even have an offense. And Jimmy is reacting to that Fred either isn't coaching one that fits the team or can't get everyone to buy in together.

Are you suggesting he should bench Rose? Or who else are you wanting demoted?

There are many games Rose should have been pulled, long before he finally did it for Kirk. And lo and behold, Rose started looking 'more healthy' immediately after that game.

Other games he should probably rely on Brooks more, even though that is mostly a FO fault for not getting a better backup.

You mention Pau. You were one of the most vocal Thibs detractors last season because he "kept forcing the ball to Pau in the post". Now you are criticizing Fred because he doesn't keep forcing the ball into Pau in the post?

Thibs fixed that though after about 20 games. Did I say forcing it in the post, no. That's why I said his offense 'apparently' is producing a worse Gasol. I don't know how much is the offense and how much is natural decline, but I know Pau scored much more efficiently last year. I do think its worth giving him a few looks there early, and we don't always do that.

I would also like to see Gasol stretching out from 16 feet or so, more to the arc at times, like Miami did with Bosh. That would truly open up the lanes more for Rose and Butler to attack, right now we have become like a soft jumpshooting team. And mostly we've increased crappy 2 point jumper attempts.

I wonder if Jimmy would be willing to quit going ISO and get McD shots if McD starts? Because out of the 3 scorers (Jimmy, Pau and Rose) the shots would need to be taken from Jimmy more than either of the other 2.

We don't have an offense because Rose and Butler won't play it; although i do think fred needs to continue to adapt and lessen the push on Hoiball.

So hoiberg does what thibs would never do; pull rose for poor play. but he didn't do it soon enough to suit you? Brand new coach...guy with a broken eye socket..used to be the face of the franchose...former MVP...ROY... but the first thing I'm going to do is pull him to send a message to him? Yeah, right. He did it in what...game 20?

I recall you complaining about going inside to Pau all through last season.

[Dajody10]

It doesn't change the fact that he was pompous, childish and unprofessional.

Opinion- not fact. Strongly held conviction by you- but opinion nonetheless. Others may interpret Jimmy's comments as an honest and much needed criticism of a locker room in malaise for the past 110 games. We have no idea how this will play in the locker room, although our collective inaccurate speculation and over reaction is half the fun, no?

Agree, though- that Jimmy should be suspended for game or two. He wants to call down the thunder- he's the first one up for discipline. And while I don't personally care for those who insist on a blind obedience to the chain of command (top down management is not the alpha and omega of organizational structure) in this case Fred would appear to have little choice.

If this is what was needed to get management to finally make a move, then it's a true early Xmas present from Santa Butler!

[Stratmaster]

It doesn't change the fact that he was pompous, childish and unprofessional.

Opinion- not fact. Strongly held conviction by you- but opinion nonetheless. Others may interpret Jimmy's comments as an honest and much needed criticism of a locker room in malaise for the past 110 games. We have no idea how this will play in the locker room, although our collective inaccurate speculation and over reaction is half the fun, no?

Agree, though- that Jimmy should be suspended for game or two. He wants to call down the thunder- he's the first one up for discipline. And while I don't personally care for those who insist on a blind obedience to the chain of command (top down management is not the alpha and omega of organizational structure) in this case Fred would appear to have little choice.

All fair enough.

[Payt10]

Last year we blamed the coach. This year we will blame the players. Even our best players.

Eventually the responsibility is going to have to roll around to everyone in the organization.

I wanted them to clean house the same way the Bears did with Emery/Trestman. Should have.

[Eesee1]

This isn't about Hoiberg, Rose or Thibs. It's about Butler's insecurities. Jimmy is somehow fighting the ghost of Rose is a leader on this team when he isn't. Rose is the guy whose play will dictate if the Bull reach contender status in people's mind not Jimmy's. Those are two completely separate idea's but I think in Butler's mind he see's them as one and the same. After the Pistons loss the talk wasn't about Jimmy's career high it was about how Rose was attacking and looking like his old self. That's why he is spouting off about leadership, being more vocal, and trying to be an alpha dog.

Jimmy Butler's "A Christmas Carol."

Past Ghost: Thibs
Present Ghost: DRose
Future Ghost(s): Niko and Snell messing up assignments while Fred says nothing?

/green (maybe?)

[Rerisen]

I recall you complaining about going inside to Pau all through last season.

No really, the issue got fixed pretty early on. About 3 weeks after the big thread I made about it.

Now you might be remembering that I still complained that Gasol was overrated in the post at this stage of his career, when he would make individual bad plays in there, or be unable to score on quality bigs, but those weren't shots at Thibs at that point. Obviously the guy has to get the ball sometime in there, I only had it as an actual coach issue the first month or so. Then Thibs wised up.