PG: Can't stop, won't stop

[warmonger]

The Bulls outside of Jordan have always been a second rate organization. And it remains that way today. That's why superstar athletes leapfrog over Chicago to play in cities that would be considered third world compared to Chicago. Michael Jordan was the Bulls. When they let that three peat championship team walk away without returning to defend their title, it was the beginning of the organization returning to the perpetual mediocrity they always were prior to the Jordan era.

[ctl131]

Lol, you were "over in England" Okay? I was on Palawan in the Philippines last January. I was in the Mani Peninsula in Greece in October for three weeks, one of the most desolate places in Europe. I lived in the Basque region in Bumble****, Spain for a year, and on Sao Miguel in the Azores Islands for a year. The first thing anyone interjects with when I mention Chicago is "The Bulls! Michael Jordan!" and will proceed to tell me where they watched the Finals wins when they happened.

I don't know what your heat is here, mate. Aren't you a Bulls fan? Good grief, relax already. What a dumb thing to refute. "It's warm outside in January & cold in July!" That's basically what you're arguing, haha.

I'm not a Bulls fan, I'm here to watch Kris Dunn. I watched all of the miserable Timberwolves games last season, too.

Interesting! As a Kris Dunn expert, what do you see is different about his game this year compared to last? Is it just opportunity? Confidence? Maturation?

They say Holberg has been working with him on his shooting technique- maybe that is paying dividends.

I think all three; the opportunity has lead to increased confidence and maturation.

I know a lot of people were down on him last season in Minnesota, but he really was drafted into an awful situation. The Timberwolves already had a big fan favorite in Rubio that had been there for years, as well as three other ball dominant players that were younger than Dunn, had been there longer, and were all scorers that needed the ball in their hands to be effective. Add to that the fact that Tibbs kept him on a very short leash and he played most of his time with running a limited offense with their second unit which, was pretty awful.

When Dunn was at PC, he was on the ball all the time making plays for his teammates; Ben Bentil went from a 6 PPG player to a 21 PPG player largely because Dunn was able to command so much attention when he had the ball which allowed him to find open passing lanes, which allowed Bentil space to operate. He is a guy that needs the ball to be effective and the opportunity the Bulls have presented him seems to be brining out his best qualities.

The most staggering part of his transition to the NBA is his sudden inability to make lay-ups. He was usually a very solid finisher in college, much more so than a shooter. His FT shooting has always been weak, and he was always a bit turnover prone but has always had good vision, especially when he gets into the paint dishing off to bigs. A close second in terms of befuddlement is his inability to get to the line, which he also did very well in college. He was shooting 5-6 FTs a game minimum his last two seasons at Providence. My only guess is he hasn't figured out how to navigate so many talented big men since the Big East was pretty bare in that regard when he was in school and he had his way most times when he got to the hoop.

The best version of Dunn (IMO) would be a guy that can get you 15/6/8 every night taking no more than 10-12 shots. He has the ability to have 20+ point games but shouldn't be out looking to do it every night because he will end up playing inefficiently and forcing things. As long as he continues to play within himself he should have no problem being a solid starting PG.

[Dresden]

I'm not a Bulls fan, I'm here to watch Kris Dunn. I watched all of the miserable Timberwolves games last season, too.

Interesting! As a Kris Dunn expert, what do you see is different about his game this year compared to last? Is it just opportunity? Confidence? Maturation?

They say Holberg has been working with him on his shooting technique- maybe that is paying dividends.

I think all three; the opportunity has lead to increased confidence and maturation.

I know a lot of people were down on him last season in Minnesota, but he really was drafted into an awful situation. The Timberwolves already had a big fan favorite in Rubio that had been there for years, as well as three other ball dominant players that were younger than Dunn, had been there longer, and were all scorers that needed the ball in their hands to be effective. Add to that the fact that Tibbs kept him on a very short leash and he played most of his time with running a limited offense with their second unit which, was pretty awful.

When Dunn was at PC, he was on the ball all the time making plays for his teammates; Ben Bentil went from a 6 PPG player to a 21 PPG player largely because Dunn was able to command so much attention when he had the ball which allowed him to find open passing lanes, which allowed Bentil space to operate. He is a guy that needs the ball to be effective and the opportunity the Bulls have presented him seems to be brining out his best qualities.

The most staggering part of his transition to the NBA is his sudden inability to make lay-ups. He was usually a very solid finisher in college, much more so than a shooter. His FT shooting has always been weak, and he was always a bit turnover prone but has always had good vision, especially when he gets into the paint dishing off to bigs. A close second in terms of befuddlement is his inability to get to the line, which he also did very well in college. He was shooting 5-6 FTs a game minimum his last two seasons at Providence. My only guess is he hasn't figured out how to navigate so many talented big men since the Big East was pretty bare in that regard when he was in school and he had his way most times when he got to the hoop.

The best version of Dunn (IMO) would be a guy that can get you 15/6/8 every night taking no more than 10-12 shots. He has the ability to have 20+ point games but shouldn't be out looking to do it every night because he will end up playing inefficiently and forcing things. As long as he continues to play within himself he should have no problem being a solid starting PG.

Thanks for the observations. Yeah, the biggest puzzle about him to me is how he can't make layups. Easy ones even he misses sometimes. Hopefully it's something temporary, because he's got the speed and the moves to get to the basket 4-5 times a game, and it makes a big difference if he can start making more of those.

[ctl131]

Interesting! As a Kris Dunn expert, what do you see is different about his game this year compared to last? Is it just opportunity? Confidence? Maturation?

They say Holberg has been working with him on his shooting technique- maybe that is paying dividends.

I think all three; the opportunity has lead to increased confidence and maturation.

I know a lot of people were down on him last season in Minnesota, but he really was drafted into an awful situation. The Timberwolves already had a big fan favorite in Rubio that had been there for years, as well as three other ball dominant players that were younger than Dunn, had been there longer, and were all scorers that needed the ball in their hands to be effective. Add to that the fact that Tibbs kept him on a very short leash and he played most of his time with running a limited offense with their second unit which, was pretty awful.

When Dunn was at PC, he was on the ball all the time making plays for his teammates; Ben Bentil went from a 6 PPG player to a 21 PPG player largely because Dunn was able to command so much attention when he had the ball which allowed him to find open passing lanes, which allowed Bentil space to operate. He is a guy that needs the ball to be effective and the opportunity the Bulls have presented him seems to be brining out his best qualities.

The most staggering part of his transition to the NBA is his sudden inability to make lay-ups. He was usually a very solid finisher in college, much more so than a shooter. His FT shooting has always been weak, and he was always a bit turnover prone but has always had good vision, especially when he gets into the paint dishing off to bigs. A close second in terms of befuddlement is his inability to get to the line, which he also did very well in college. He was shooting 5-6 FTs a game minimum his last two seasons at Providence. My only guess is he hasn't figured out how to navigate so many talented big men since the Big East was pretty bare in that regard when he was in school and he had his way most times when he got to the hoop.

The best version of Dunn (IMO) would be a guy that can get you 15/6/8 every night taking no more than 10-12 shots. He has the ability to have 20+ point games but shouldn't be out looking to do it every night because he will end up playing inefficiently and forcing things. As long as he continues to play within himself he should have no problem being a solid starting PG.

Thanks for the observations. Yeah, the biggest puzzle about him to me is how he can't make layups. Easy ones even he misses sometimes. Hopefully it's something temporary, because he's got the speed and the moves to get to the basket 4-5 times a game, and it makes a big difference if he can start making more of those.

Agreed. If he even made 3 of the 6-7 easy shots he missed the other night his line gets that much more impressive; 19/8/8/4 on 9-18 FG. I think all Bulls fans would be happy with that on a more consistent basis.

[GameBredAPBT]

The Bulls outside of Jordan have always been a second rate organization. And it remains that way today. That's why superstar athletes leapfrog over Chicago to play in cities that would be considered third world compared to Chicago. Michael Jordan was the Bulls. When they let that three peat championship team walk away without returning to defend their title, it was the beginning of the organization returning to the perpetual mediocrity they always were prior to the Jordan era.

Except that wasn't the argument. Pre Bulls /Jordan, no one around the globe, save for certain regions throughout the US, gave a hoot about basketball. It was a novelty, nothing more. In fact, after the Bulls success, the NBA went right back into the dark, although the light had been shown on it. Kobe & those Lakers teams were popular, no doubt, but they were peanuts in comparison with the 90s Bulls. Only until very recently has the NBA seen any major type of universal growth financially.

Also, the only reason the Bulls could be viewed as a mediocre franchise is due to their putrid ownership. What defines a non mediocre NBA franchise? The Celtics won a ring nearly a decade ago, otherwise they have been ****/treadmillers for decades. The Spurs? They aren't needle movers. The Warriors have gained some semblance of competence in recent years, but up until a few years ago were a franchise shrouded in controversy & viewed as a laughing stock. I hope you're not referring to the Knicks, they're one of the sorriest franchises in sports. The Lakers & Spurs are technically the only non mediocre franchises given that they're the only teams that have won multiple titles post_Bulls/MJ (heatles don't count) I guess then eh? What silly notion. And the current Lakers have some of the worst ownership & scouting, as well as perhaps the worst "GM" In the league. They just wasted their #2 overall pick on some dude who everyone knew would be an average at best PG in the pros, based on some nonsense espn pieces. So who are the non mediocre NBA franchises??

[Rerisen]

I wouldn't rate top franchise based on name recognition in Timbuktu, rather simpler way would be franchise value, of which the Bulls are #3.

But even that doesn't speak to the desirability of the destination, which is what matters for team building via FA, where the Bulls clearly aren't #1 and likely not even in the top 5.

[ArizonaBullsFan]

I can't believe how bad the #2 picks have been. Of all those selections, KD was the only one good enough to be a 1st option for a title contender. A team could have drafted for 10 straight years in the #2 position and never come away with a superstar.

If that isn't Exhibit A for not tanking, you shouldn't be a lawyer, or serve on jury duty.

And very few of the #1 overall picks are leading a team to a title.

And if people aren't aware, that's the last 20 drafts in a row (starting with 2013, all of those guys are off their rookie deals. 2014 draft are on the last year of their rookie deal right now.

It would be interesting to show at what points in the draft in the last 20 years the 3 best players from that draft class were chosen at. Donovan Mitchell was #12 or something like that this year, wasn't he? How did scouts and GM's miss so badly on this guy? He should have gone 1 or 2.

If this is the comment you deleted because you may his misunderstood my point, you didn't. You nailed the living sheeet out of it.

[ArizonaBullsFan]

Yeah, I know in 2011, there were some teams that are glad they got top 7 instead of 8 or 15 or 30 or 60...

Multiple stars, like 2011:

1- Kyrie
2- Derrick Williams
3- Kanter
4- Tristan
5- Jonas
6- Jan Vesely
7- Biyambo
8- Kemba
15- Kawhi
30- Jimmy
60- Not Zeke Thomas

Im not trusting GarPax to find the gems. Dont forget, these are the same guys that literally wasted draft picks on Erik Murphy, Marques Teague, Tony Snell, an Cameron Beartoes etc...

And on Taj Gibson, Niko Mirotic, Omer Asik, and Jimmy Butler.

I've only been a member here for 18 months, but it only took me about 18 minutes to realize that facts don't really mean a goddamn thing here. That may be too generalized, but it sure as firetruck isn't when it comes to criticizing GarPaxBergDorf. Really, shouldn't it be DorfPaxGarBerg, since that's the order of longevity and power in the organization?

[ArizonaBullsFan]

And I'm for freedom of speech (waaaaaaay more than anyone who doesn't know me personally would ever dream), but even though it's still too early to say with any degree of certainty, the people who financed the "Fire GarPax" billboard in the city are starting to wish they hadn't wasted their money...

[waffle]

Im not trusting GarPax to find the gems. Dont forget, these are the same guys that literally wasted draft picks on Erik Murphy, Marques Teague, Tony Snell, an Cameron Beartoes etc...

And on Taj Gibson, Niko Mirotic, Omer Asik, and Jimmy Butler.

I've only been a member here for 18 months, but it only took me about 18 minutes to realize that facts don't really mean a goddamn thing here. That may be too generalized, but it sure as firetruck isn't when it comes to criticizing GarPaxBergDorf. Really, shouldn't it be DorfPaxGarBerg, since that's the order of longevity and power in the organization?

and I've been here a bit longer and I disagree. There are always factions? But this board pretty much always knuckles down to actually discussing the details. You'll figure that out.

Discussing the FO is complex, though. They've been almost good quite often, and obviously mistaken quite often also. That is probably the case with almost FO's in almost all sports. there is always something to criticize.

[Stratmaster]

Rookies of the year by draft position:

http://www.nba.com/history/draft/rookies-of-the-year-with-draft-pick/

There is an awful lot of #1 picks here...after that...all over the board.

EDIT: Sorry, this goes way back in the thread to when we were discussing the likelihood of getting an all-star at various draft pick positions.

[ArizonaBullsFan]

And on Taj Gibson, Niko Mirotic, Omer Asik, and Jimmy Butler.

I've only been a member here for 18 months, but it only took me about 18 minutes to realize that facts don't really mean a goddamn thing here. That may be too generalized, but it sure as firetruck isn't when it comes to criticizing GarPaxBergDorf. Really, shouldn't it be DorfPaxGarBerg, since that's the order of longevity and power in the organization?

and I've been here a bit longer and I disagree. There are always factions? But this board pretty much always knuckles down to actually discussing the details. You'll figure that out.

Discussing the FO is complex, though. They've been almost good quite often, and obviously mistaken quite often also. That is probably the case with almost FO's in almost all sports. there is always something to criticize.

1 - Cool, and fair enough, I am nothing if not a possessor of the ability to admit when I'm wrong. Don't believe me? Ask the divorce lawyers all over the US who are building vacation homes with my $$$ And NOT little shotgun shacks on the Intercoastal Waterway, I'm talking beachfront mansions in Key West.

2 - But it shouldn't be complex, if people would just be honest and discuss each move on its own merits.

If DorfPaxGarBerg do something that the individual poster doesn't agree with, they get ripped on, even if all the other 29 NBA teams do the exact same thing. It's sort of uncommon for fans of a team that has a 9-year streak of .500 or better to pay for a billboard calling for GarPax to be fired.

I've seen pages and pages on more than one PaxGar move that could not possibly me more inconsequential. Forgive me for not joining in on ripping the FO in the 713 page thread calling for DorfPaxGar to be fired for ordering Chinese for lunch today, when competent NBA front offices with any brains whatsoever all eat pizza on the 2nd Tuesday of each December in even-numbered, non-leap years.

But seriously, I've been called a member of the FODF and told that I blindly praise Every Move They Make. Which is ridiculous, of course.

[ArizonaBullsFan]

Rookies of the year by draft position:

http://www.nba.com/history/draft/rookies-of-the-year-with-draft-pick/

There is an awful lot of #1 picks here...after that...all over the board.

EDIT: Sorry, this goes way back in the thread to when we were discussing the likelihood of getting an all-star at various draft pick positions.

Great post, just a few things:

In the era of teenagers being the #1 pick, how many of those guys are the best players from their draft class 5, 10 years out?

And how many of those #1 pick ROY were consensus #1 picks? We don't have anywhere near a consensus #1 pick this year, people have 3, 4, maybe 5 guys who they think should be #1.

It's just like the NFL QB - if you have 3 QB, you don't have a QB.

Folks just LOVE to bring up the 2003 draft, LeBron, Melo, Wade, Bosh. But get real mi amigos, as great as Wade is, and a lock for the HOF, who won a ring basically on his own without a superteam (an aging, declined Shaq, White Chocolate and Toine not withstanding)...

None of those guys are CLOSE to LeBron. Not. Even. Remotely. Close.



I have zero problems with anyone's argument that Wade is remotely close. But he ain't close close.

[Chi town]

The Bulls got 3 years of that done with one trade, meaning their process should be anywhere from 1 season to 5 seasons. If all 3 of the guys they brought in from the Butler trade turn into starting quality players (and that appears to be the direction it is going) it should be closer to one season than to 5; way closer.

If all 3 guys they got are starting level players it will definitely make a hinkie impossible, but if none are actually All-Stars it might just lock us into to another Skiles level team (not saying they can't be but so far don't see Kyrie/Draymond potential there even as #2 guys).

As if we don't get our superstar next summer, not sure how else we'd get one, seeing as how this org has not been good at luring A level Free Agents, plus nowadays you need more like 2 or 3 elite talents not just the old single star surrounded by role players model that sometimes worked.

Right now the Bulls appear to have 3 players who can consistently score at a 20 ppg level. Lavine, Niko and Lauri. In addition, on a given night Dunn could put up 20 as well. If they get an All-Star level player in free agency and a top 8 pick in this draft... and if they shed a couple of players not on that list for a 2019 first-rounder... then combine their two 2019 first-rounders to move up in the draft I see no reason to have to try to be horrible for the next four years just to take a crap shoot at a couple of number one picks.

Sent from my SM-G920V using RealGM mobile app

This.

If GarPax play it right they can build a contender and sniff the playoffs next season.

[Susan]

Rookies of the year by draft position:

http://www.nba.com/history/draft/rookies-of-the-year-with-draft-pick/

There is an awful lot of #1 picks here...after that...all over the board.

EDIT: Sorry, this goes way back in the thread to when we were discussing the likelihood of getting an all-star at various draft pick positions.

Great post, just a few things:

In the era of teenagers being the #1 pick, how many of those guys are the best players from their draft class 5, 10 years out?

And how many of those #1 pick ROY were consensus #1 picks? We don't have anywhere near a consensus #1 pick this year, people have 3, 4, maybe 5 guys who they think should be #1.

It's just like the NFL QB - if you have 3 QB, you don't have a QB.

Folks just LOVE to bring up the 2003 draft, LeBron, Melo, Wade, Bosh. But get real mi amigos, as great as Wade is, and a lock for the HOF, who won a ring basically on his own without a superteam (an aging, declined Shaq, White Chocolate and Toine not withstanding)...

None of those guys are CLOSE to LeBron. Not. Even. Remotely. Close.



I have zero problems with anyone's argument that Wade is remotely close. But he ain't close close.

I really don't mean offense here, but you're an absolute madman.

[ArizonaBullsFan]

Rookies of the year by draft position:

http://www.nba.com/history/draft/rookies-of-the-year-with-draft-pick/

There is an awful lot of #1 picks here...after that...all over the board.

EDIT: Sorry, this goes way back in the thread to when we were discussing the likelihood of getting an all-star at various draft pick positions.

Great post, just a few things:

In the era of teenagers being the #1 pick, how many of those guys are the best players from their draft class 5, 10 years out?

And how many of those #1 pick ROY were consensus #1 picks? We don't have anywhere near a consensus #1 pick this year, people have 3, 4, maybe 5 guys who they think should be #1.

It's just like the NFL QB - if you have 3 QB, you don't have a QB.

Folks just LOVE to bring up the 2003 draft, LeBron, Melo, Wade, Bosh. But get real mi amigos, as great as Wade is, and a lock for the HOF, who won a ring basically on his own without a superteam (an aging, declined Shaq, White Chocolate and Toine not withstanding)...

None of those guys are CLOSE to LeBron. Not. Even. Remotely. Close.



I have zero problems with anyone's argument that Wade is remotely close. But he ain't close close.

I really don't mean offense here, but you're an absolute madman.

Thanks bro, no really it's a compliment. I learned about 35, maybe 40 years ago that a life without a good, healthy dose of insanity is a life I'm not interested in living.

If you were simply and only referring to my takes on tanking in the Lottery Full Of Teenagers era, that's cool too. Because you are 100% wrong.

And OT, I always love sentences prefaced with "I really don't mean offense here", because it clears you to say whatever the hell you want, and the person has no right to be offended.

It's almost the exact same thing as my (obviously) favorite gif-meme thingy. It works with anything.
____________________________________________

Your wife is beautiful, a great cook, an incredible homemaker, an amazing career gal, and the best mother to ever walk the face of the Earth



She's a raging, out of control, pill-head alcoholic and a goddamn slut. Biggest whore on 5th avenue, I'm told...

[Dankoz]

We can already forget the next years draft. We are doing way too good at the moment.

Nah Bulls will be a 25 win or less team. The bad start helped and they arent good enough to dig out of the hole.

I hope you right but i have really bad feeling about this 4 game winstreak.

[TheCly]

The Bulls outside of Jordan have always been a second rate organization. And it remains that way today. That's why superstar athletes leapfrog over Chicago to play in cities that would be considered third world compared to Chicago. Michael Jordan was the Bulls. When they let that three peat championship team walk away without returning to defend their title, it was the beginning of the organization returning to the perpetual mediocrity they always were prior to the Jordan era.

What superstars? Kobe Bryant, who by his own admission was close to choosing Chicago at one point?
LeBron James, who had Chicago on his short list, but chose to have a super team in Miami?
Tim Duncan, who stayed in San Antonio?

These guys simply had other options. Superstars aren't often found in free agency, they're usually home grown in the draft. That's normally the best place to find them.

Where we have certainly failed is at keeping players who are very good, like Ron Artest, Elton Brand, or Tyson Chandler. We get greedy and trade away such players to avoid "mediocrity" and then you end up with nothing to build around. This has been a bigger problem than not signing superstars.

[Onibuh]

yeah, stay the Course and Keep your guys. Every 10-15 years you have to tank. Team would be much better without stupid 1st round trading for McDermott. Just think about being smart there... Team wouldn't even have to rebuild if only 1 of those picks makes it second to Butler.

Have a good and solid Group without that star power is the best start and way to go after that star power. Everybody likes what the Celts are doing and they have had that solid Group just to add Hayward and trade for Kyrie.

[Stratmaster]

Rookies of the year by draft position:

http://www.nba.com/history/draft/rookies-of-the-year-with-draft-pick/

There is an awful lot of #1 picks here...after that...all over the board.

EDIT: Sorry, this goes way back in the thread to when we were discussing the likelihood of getting an all-star at various draft pick positions.

Great post, just a few things:

In the era of teenagers being the #1 pick, how many of those guys are the best players from their draft class 5, 10 years out?

And how many of those #1 pick ROY were consensus #1 picks? We don't have anywhere near a consensus #1 pick this year, people have 3, 4, maybe 5 guys who they think should be #1.

It's just like the NFL QB - if you have 3 QB, you don't have a QB.

Folks just LOVE to bring up the 2003 draft, LeBron, Melo, Wade, Bosh. But get real mi amigos, as great as Wade is, and a lock for the HOF, who won a ring basically on his own without a superteam (an aging, declined Shaq, White Chocolate and Toine not withstanding)...

None of those guys are CLOSE to LeBron. Not. Even. Remotely. Close.



I have zero problems with anyone's argument that Wade is remotely close. But he ain't close close.

Yep. Everything I see tends to indicate you have about a 50/50 chance of getting an all-star caliber player with the first pick. After that it's a crap shoot. There is no way to guarantee yourself a #1 pick. If you are the worst record in the league you have a 25% chance of getting that #1 pick.

So if you are the best at tanking 4 years straight, odds say you will get a single #1 pick, of which you have at best a 50/50 chance of getting the superstar difference maker. This means depending on your luck the Hinkie approach can take 8 seasons just to find that diamond you are looking for; and then you have to build a team around him. If you ascribe to the theory that you haave to shed talent every season to ensure that worst record, until you find that diamond, you could be waiting a long, long time. God forbid that you strike out on 2 different #1 picks...now it could be 12 seasons.

Following this approach with the hope that you get lucky and hit pay-dirt on your first #1 pick...or hoping that you get 2 #1 picks, say, in 3 seasons of having the worst record...seems insane. Hope is not a strategy.