It feels like 4 on 5 when BOGANS is in the Game

[fleet]

Welcome back Fleet!

Been a while....what a great time to be a Bulls fan!

It is! [Darth Vader]I haven't felt this way.. since.......[/Darth Vader]

We as Bulls fans have great chemistry now too. I wonder why. I takes a loss once in awhile for our true grumpy selves to emerge

I think the Bulls are fine with Bogans, they accept him. Chemistry works. Thats what winning helps. So I have to accept him too. If there was an awesome anti Bogans case to be made with this roster being what it is, The Bulls would have tried it because the players would be happier, and one thing Thibs love as much as defense is smooth teamwork and chemsistry.

[fleet]

I agree. I don't worry about this because I try not to worry about things that can't be helped. Bogans is pretty fearless. Every dog has the sun shine on his ass every blue playoff moon. Bogans will hit a few big shots because he won't be scared. At least, thats what I tell myself when I'm drinking a nice gin and tonic.

Is this fleet as in fleetwoodmacbulls?

I think so. Mostly. He is dead and I have taken his place. Time changes us. Time isn't holding us, time isn't after us time isn't holding us, time doesn't hold you back ..

[musiqsoulchild]

It will be very interesting to see if Bogans minutes remotely contract once the Playoffs start. There is no margin of error when you're facing elite talent like Wade and Allen in a high stakes playoff series, especially when they will likely see their minutes increase then. Thibodeau has been very rigid in his rotations to this point, so we'll see how things work out for us in late April.

The other thing that I'm curious about is whether the front office even makes an upgrade at the shooting guard position in the off-season. I could easily imagine them exercising their option on Bogans, or even extending him for another year, and it wouldn't surprise me to see several people on this board defending the move as prudent in the current financial climate.

I'd be OK with that ONLY under 2 conditions:

1) We have made the ECF or won the Eastern Conference Title.
2) There are clear indications that Dwight wants to be traded to Chi.

Any other reason would piss me off no end.

[cot2]

Listen, when you have so many posters, especially guys with a million posts, who have out their reputation on the line that playing Bogans is leading to disaster, you are going to see all kind of justification for why they are not wrong. It is pretty obvious that there is a huge majority that thinks the game is only played on one side, you know the good players are volume shooters, defense, ball movement, chemistry means nothing, just get enough shots up to get a decent PER. If there was any consideration for the other side of the ball, you would see threads about playing 4 on 5 when Korver, or Boozer are in the game.

I would not expect that the rotaions in the playoffs change much, but when they are facing opponents with two wing scorers, Boston, Miami, you may see more Bogans, a longer up front, and offensive defensive substitions at the end of tight games.

The fact is the Bulls have the 2nd best record in the entire league with the rotation Thibs is using. There is no question that Bogans started out slowly, but since most of you only care about the offensive side, here are Bogans numbers since the beginning of the year.

Jan FG% 41.5%, 3PT% 43.8%, 1.220 PPS, 59% AFG%
Feb FG% 42.9%, 3PT% 45.7%, 1.310 PPS, 62% AFG%
Mar FG% 41.3%, 3PT% 38.7%, 1.187 PPS, 57% AFG%

Compare those numbers again any Bulls players, or players you were clamoring for at the deadline, and when you do not like what you see, make excuses for why those numbers do not matter, like gets so many open looks, or is hesitant to shoot, instead of Bogans keeps the ball moving, and only takes good shots.

It is funny to see the supposed Bulls fans rush away from the game, and to the keyboard, anytime they have a chance to write a post to support the notion that they were right, even as the Bulls rise to the top of the standings. With the Bulls recent play, it must be hard to wait some many games for a loss?

[jcuuofd]

Boston does - Rondo, Allen, Pierce, Garnett, Shaq
LA does - Fisher, Kobe, Artest, Gasol, Bynum
Orlando does on paper, but they are still having chemistry problems - Nelson, Richardson, Turkoglu, Bass, Howard

All of these teams also have good bench players.

The Bulls would destroy opponents if they had a starter like Jason Richardson.

Fisher is the only one of those who's actually comparable. Very comparable in fact. The only thing that makes him somewhat redeeming, is that he's known for hitting big threes in the postseason. This season:

Fisher: 8.9 PER, 48.1%TS, 38.4%fg, 39.6%three, 73 games played
Bogans: 8.7 PER, 54.7%TS, 39.7%fg, 37.2%three, 73 games played

Keep in mind Fisher's numbers last season when the Lakers won it all were basically the same as this years. The Lakers often play 4 on 5 with him in the lineup and he gets killed by fast, athletic PG's. It's definitely possible to win it all despite Bogans. It's just about how well you go about hiding him. The Lakers and Bulls both do a pretty good job at that, when it comes to their respective weak links.

Fisher and Bogans is a good comparison. I have occasionally read the Lakers board throughout the season and their fans complain about him a lot, although not nearly as much as Bulls fans complain about Bogans.

However Phil Jackson seemed to indicate that Steve Blake will be playing a larger role in the playoffs and that Fisher will be getting less playing time. Bogans seems to be getting more minutes lately. I think he got nearly 20 minutes last game and Korver player for only 8 minutes.

Lakers' Blake expected to play bigger role in playoffs

"Steve can and will have more authority, more presence on the court as we go ahead," Lakers coach Phil Jackson said, according to the site. "[Blake] has stayed in the backdrop a lot and played a role. He's a very important part of what we have to get done, simply because he has a defensive capability to do things that we can't get done with anybody else. So, some of the guys who are prolific scorers that come off screens or do things based on just quickness and speed, he's got to be part of that. He knows that and he's stepping into it."

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/rumors/post ... nba-335115

The thing with Fisher is that he has some history with the Lakers winning several championships which makes it harder to bench him. Bogans on the other hand has only been with this team for one season and he has been a role player for his entire career. It is great that he stepped up at the beginning of the season, but he needs to go back to being a role player with the second unit. I really doubt that taking him out of the starting lineup would mess up the chemistry of the second unit.

[kodo]

It will be very interesting to see if Bogans minutes remotely contract once the Playoffs start. There is no margin of error when you're facing elite talent like Wade and Allen in a high stakes playoff series, especially when they will likely see their minutes increase then. Thibodeau has been very rigid in his rotations to this point, so we'll see how things work out for us in late April.

The other thing that I'm curious about is whether the front office even makes an upgrade at the shooting guard position in the off-season. I could easily imagine them exercising their option on Bogans, or even extending him for another year, and it wouldn't surprise me to see several people on this board defending the move as prudent in the current financial climate.

I'm not sure if any of our SGs can really stop Wade or Ray Allen, even if you did start Brewer/Korver.

The crux is that while Korver/Brewer are better than Bogans, neither Korver or Brewer are better than many good SGs, so we still don't win the matchup at that position. Thibs seems to have decided that if he can't win the starting SG matchup against most teams, he'll win the bench matchup...which he's been very successful with.

I think we'll see very little happen this off season, but not because of the Bulls FO. The lockout will kill almost any trading IMO until it gets resolved.

[panthermark]

Bogans is awful......no need to argue about it because there is nothing that can be done about it. Just accept it, and hope for the best.

The FO tried to upgrade the SG spot in the summer (Raja, Redick and Rudy).
The FO tried to upgrade the SG spot at the deadline (Lee and Mayo).
I'm sure the FO will try to upgrade the SG spot this summer (trade bait)...

The FO knows it....other teams know it, the media knows it....
When the Bulls are talked about...it is always Rose...along with Deng, Noah and Boozer....plus the 5 bench players (Bench Mob). Bogans is basically left out....
But...the Bulls as a team are still winning....(Thanks Rose!)

[tangent12]

I have a bad feeling Bogans is going to cost us some important games but I don't want to come across as a Bogans hater so I'll give him the chance to prove me wrong. For some reason I look at him and the memory of duhon turning his back on that one inbound pass against the Wizards in the playoffs comes to mind. Don't know why, don't know why.

[DuckIII]

The Bogans issue is so December. I'm over it. Its like paying taxes.

[DanTown8587]

The Bogans issue is so December. I'm over it. Its like paying taxes.

Every loss here on out and definitely in the playoffs will likely get a new thread/bumped thread regarding the employment of Keith Bogans by the Chicago Bulls. Now, I'm hopeful Thibs shortens the rotation and takes Bogans out of out, but I'm not holding breath on that one.

The funny thing is people complain about the minutes of Deng, yet Thibs runs a 10 man rotation of guys who play at least 10 minutes. And the Bulls are going to have a roster get 11 guys with 1000 minutes and that's without a trade. Pretty crazy.

[coldfish]

Bogans is a problem. I'm not sure that Thibodeau's use of Bogans is a problem though. What Thibodeau has specifically done is strengthened the bench and weakened the starters by playing Bogans at the beginning of the first and third quarters. This has lead to slow starts (and bad +/- numbers for players like Rose), but it has also lead to the Bulls being fresh at the end of games and routinely watching the bench kill other benches.

Would things work better if Bogans' few minutes were given to Korver, Watson and Brewer? Would they be less fresh? Possibly, but not guaranteed. Do I wish the team had tried it out? Yes. To some extent, the Bulls may be a victim of their own success. Since what is happening is working, they aren't going to change it up despite the fact that doing something different (sans Bogans) may work better.

[tangent12]

Bogans is a problem. I'm not sure that Thibodeau's use of Bogans is a problem though. What Thibodeau has specifically done is strengthened the bench and weakened the starters by playing Bogans at the beginning of the first and third quarters. This has lead to slow starts (and bad +/- numbers for players like Rose), but it has also lead to the Bulls being fresh at the end of games and routinely watching the bench kill other benches.

Would things work better if Bogans' few minutes were given to Korver, Watson and Brewer? Would they be less fresh? Possibly, but not guaranteed. Do I wish the team had tried it out? Yes. To some extent, the Bulls may be a victim of their own success. Since what is happening is working, they aren't going to change it up despite the fact that doing something different (sans Bogans) may work better.

Good post, pretty much sums up how I feel about the Bogans situation.

[transplant]

Bogans is a problem. I'm not sure that Thibodeau's use of Bogans is a problem though. What Thibodeau has specifically done is strengthened the bench and weakened the starters by playing Bogans at the beginning of the first and third quarters. This has lead to slow starts (and bad +/- numbers for players like Rose), but it has also lead to the Bulls being fresh at the end of games and routinely watching the bench kill other benches.

Would things work better if Bogans' few minutes were given to Korver, Watson and Brewer? Would they be less fresh? Possibly, but not guaranteed. Do I wish the team had tried it out? Yes. To some extent, the Bulls may be a victim of their own success. Since what is happening is working, they aren't going to change it up despite the fact that doing something different (sans Bogans) may work better.

Good post as usual.

Bogans is a sub who Thibs has decided to have play his sub minutes at the beginning of the game and the beginning of the 3rd quarter. Thibs does this because Bogans is a good defensive player, a good 3pt shooter and a very low usage guy. Fans continue to hate on him because he starts and because he had a godawful November in terms of 3-pointers (he's over 40% since).

Bogans is OK and people should get over it.

[cot2]

Bogans is not a problem, and has not been a problem, but I guess it is possible he could become one, but no reason to think all of a sudden he becomes an issue in loosing a game. Korver is a better offensive player than Bogans, but a much worse defender. Brewer may be a better defender, depending on if you value what one does one the ball, versus playing passing lanes etc, but limitations on range to provide spacing is an issue on the offensive end. How do you judge who is a better basketball player, or who has more value to the Bulls success, and do you give more weight to the opinion of potential COY Thibs, or message board posters that rate players on a metric like PER?

Thibs has shown he is very willing to play guys major minutes. Brewer is playing about 22 minutes a game, Korver 20, not upper 30s. Thibs is not playing Bogans to keep those other guys fresh. Thibs is playing Bogans because he feel that gives the Bulls the best chance to win games. Going by minutes, Thibs must think that Brewer is slightly more value than Korver, who has slightly more value than Bogans, but that that are fairly equal. Unless you have zero faith in Thibs, and you think Bogans sucks, you have to also think that they all suck. That is at least a coherant argument, even if it were a littel suspect with the Bulls having the 2nd best record in the entire NBA with that group of SGs.

[kyrv]

Bogans is a problem. I'm not sure that Thibodeau's use of Bogans is a problem though. What Thibodeau has specifically done is strengthened the bench and weakened the starters by playing Bogans at the beginning of the first and third quarters. This has lead to slow starts (and bad +/- numbers for players like Rose), but it has also lead to the Bulls being fresh at the end of games and routinely watching the bench kill other benches.

Would things work better if Bogans' few minutes were given to Korver, Watson and Brewer? Would they be less fresh? Possibly, but not guaranteed. Do I wish the team had tried it out? Yes. To some extent, the Bulls may be a victim of their own success. Since what is happening is working, they aren't going to change it up despite the fact that doing something different (sans Bogans) may work better.

Fish, previous successful experienced coaches of Bogans have not started him and in some cases, benched him, for the playoffs.

Do you think Thibs will do that? When other teams shorten the rotation, is the Bulls 'second team' going to look as good?

[panthermark]

Bogans is not a problem, and has not been a problem, but I guess it is possible he could become one, but no reason to think all of a sudden he becomes an issue in loosing a game. Korver is a better offensive player than Bogans, but a much worse defender. Brewer may be a better defender, depending on if you value what one does one the ball, versus playing passing lanes etc, but limitations on range to provide spacing is an issue on the offensive end. How do you judge who is a better basketball player, or who has more value to the Bulls success, and do you give more weight to the opinion of potential COY Thibs, or message board posters that rate players on a metric like PER?

Thibs has shown he is very willing to play guys major minutes. Brewer is playing about 22 minutes a game, Korver 20, not upper 30s. Thibs is not playing Bogans to keep those other guys fresh. Thibs is playing Bogans because he feel that gives the Bulls the best chance to win games. Going by minutes, Thibs must think that Brewer is slightly more value than Korver, who has slightly more value than Bogans, but that that are fairly equal. Unless you have zero faith in Thibs, and you think Bogans sucks, you have to also think that they all suck. That is at least a coherant argument, even if it were a littel suspect with the Bulls having the 2nd best record in the entire NBA with that group of SGs.

I think you are using the world problem in a different context than most.

To say Bogans isn't a problem..and has never been one seems....odd.

Swap "problem" with "major weakness"...

I've never been big on swapping Bogans with Korver or Brewer. I understand "why" Thibs starts him (best balance of defense and shooting while keeping the bench strong).
What I HAVE been big on is/was swapping Bogans with a SG that isn't on this team (but NOT at the expense of players...only picks....even if we overpay). Since that didn't/can't happen...there isn't anything that can be done except shorten the rotation a bit and hope for the best.

[panthermark]

Bogans is a problem. I'm not sure that Thibodeau's use of Bogans is a problem though. What Thibodeau has specifically done is strengthened the bench and weakened the starters by playing Bogans at the beginning of the first and third quarters. This has lead to slow starts (and bad +/- numbers for players like Rose), but it has also lead to the Bulls being fresh at the end of games and routinely watching the bench kill other benches.

Would things work better if Bogans' few minutes were given to Korver, Watson and Brewer? Would they be less fresh? Possibly, but not guaranteed. Do I wish the team had tried it out? Yes. To some extent, the Bulls may be a victim of their own success. Since what is happening is working, they aren't going to change it up despite the fact that doing something different (sans Bogans) may work better.

Well stated.....
Bogans sucks....but Thibs is using him the best way possible. The only way that "might" work better is to remove him from the line-up....but that might weaken the bench and be a net gain...or a loss.

So...all we can do is hope KB6 plays well....and try not to cringe when he bricks wide open three's are takes that high-azz dribble down the lane...

[cot2]

I think you are using the world problem in a different context than most.

To say Bogans isn't a problem..and has never been one seems....odd.

Swap "problem" with "major weakness"...

I've never been big on swapping Bogans with Korver or Brewer. I understand "why" Thibs starts him (best balance of defense and shooting while keeping the bench strong).
What I HAVE been big on is/was swapping Bogans with a SG that isn't on this team (but NOT at the expense of players...only picks....even if we overpay). Since that didn't/can't happen...there isn't anything that can be done except shorten the rotation a bit and hope for the best.

You are one of the few that has at least provided a premise that SG is the problem, instead of Bogans is a problem, which is at least coherant. Not one that I agree with, but better than blaming a imminent meltdown on a guy using 3% of the salary cap space, and 7% of the minutes, while playing solid defense, and shooting at a high efficiency, wide open shots, or not.

[kyrv]

Listen, when you have so many posters, especially guys with a million posts,

While there can be bugs with recording and displaying post counts, there aren't multiple Bulls posters with a million posts. What is written here is factually incorrect/wrong/not true.

who have out their reputation on the line that playing Bogans is leading to disaster,

Who said it was leading to disaster? I don't agree that anyone is at any risk of losing reputation by taking the stance that Bogans is not very good. Or that Brewer is better than Bogans. Or that Brewer is a better defender than Bogans. Do you disagree with any of these outlandish claims?

you are going to see all kind of justification for why they are not wrong.

Again I'm not certain one needs to do much fancy footwork to demonstrate that Bogans isn't very good. Or that Brewer is better.

It is pretty obvious that there is a huge majority that thinks the game is only played on one side,

Not only is not obvious, but it's not true. Wrong. Incorrect.

you know the good players are volume shooters, defense, ball movement, chemistry means nothing, just get enough shots up to get a decent PER. If there was any consideration for the other side of the ball, you would see threads about playing 4 on 5 when Korver, or Boozer are in the game.

Can these posts be quoted? Probably not, as they don't exist. It's not truthful. I wouldn't imagine the people that want Brewer starting over Bogans are doing so because of volume shooting.

Is there ONE post that says chemistry in basketball means nothing? Let alone a majority? Seems like that claim is an outright lie.

I would not expect that the rotaions in the playoffs change much, but when they are facing opponents with two wing scorers, Boston, Miami, you may see more Bogans, a longer up front, and offensive defensive substitions at the end of tight games.

I don't expect them to change either, and more Bogans might not be the best way to go. He's not really very good.

The fact is the Bulls have the 2nd best record in the entire league with the rotation Thibs is using.

Yes they do. This content is factual. Thank you.

There is no question that Bogans started out slowly,

He did? Well that's okay.

but since most of you only care about the offensive side

This statement is not factual.

[cot2]

I guess I should have known better than to think that the board would understand hyperbole, even with the pretty obvious million number, but lesson learned, so I take back the million post comment, when I was just referring to people whose life revolves around the message board, but every other statement is competely consistant with the vast majority of poster's comments, and views on this board.