Boozer and the PNR, video -- Double High Screen vid pg. 11

[Rerisen]

This gets back to my question I ask a lot, with the Thibs system, do you need the scoring from the perimeters because I think you were the one who used the term "diminishing" Boozer and the 4 and 5 are just too important on defense that if you can't run plays to make use of the PF, you are better with defenders at the 4 and 5, and get your scoring from the 1 to 3.

Well Boozer was benched a good portion of that Warriors game. Can't run PnR if you aren't on the floor.

But I do think there may have been a little over giddiness about Rip Hamilton, even in the coaching staff, maybe thinking, hey Rip = Ray Allen, let's plug Rip into a bunch of Ray sets! As well even extending to Rose, who seemed constantly looking to get the ball to Rip, perhaps ignoring other things that might have been available.

We already have Deng as a slasher, screen using guy, just because we signed Rip, I don't think that means we should do twice as much of that stuff. One of those guys has to be relegated to spotting up more, sometimes both of them IMO. Let Rose and Boozer work the 2 man game, and shots will develop for those guys naturally.

[alucryts]

This gets back to my question I ask a lot, with the Thibs system, do you need the scoring from the perimeters because I think you were the one who used the term "diminishing" Boozer and the 4 and 5 are just too important on defense that if you can't run plays to make use of the PF, you are better with defenders at the 4 and 5, and get your scoring from the 1 to 3.

Well Boozer was benched a good portion of that Warriors game. Can't run PnR if you aren't on the floor.

But I do think there may have been a little over giddiness about Rip Hamilton, even in the coaching staff, maybe thinking, hey Rip = Ray Allen, let's plug Rip into a bunch of Ray sets! As well even extending to Rose, who seemed constantly looking to get the ball to Rip, perhaps ignoring other things that might have been available.

We already have Deng as a slasher, screen using guy, just because we signed Rip, I don't think that means we should do twice as much as that stuff. One of those guys has to be relegated to spotting up more, sometimes both of them IMO. Let Rose and Boozer work the 2 man game, and shots will develop for those guys naturally.

When I rewatched the Warriors game, our offense looked great with the starters out there.....we just kept making unforced silly turnovers. We were getting excellent open shots on them with team passing; the timing and precision just wasn't there yet.

[WinCity]

With Kurt Thomas, he understood Boozer and allowed him to score inside while Thomas remained outside hitting 2 to 5 mid range shots a night. This worked.

Asik I am afraid would have the same problems Noah is having. Gibson wouldn't but he can't play Center.

First thanks to alucryts for putting this together. Great stuff.

Second I agree Boog there really isn't a good solution on this roster. Even if Noah improves his jumper I think it will take awhile before teams begin to respect it. And frankly, even if they do believe he has improved the jumper I rather take my chances with that than with letting a proving scorer look Booz go to work. It is really hard to see how we ever get a Booz and Noah to compliment each other.

[Rerisen]

One of the best offensive stretches we've had, post Rose, was when Rose had Gordon and Salmons next to him - and later Kirk in the playoffs even.

These guys were a nightmare to cover, because all would put the ball on the floor, then kick it back out to one of the others, for a three, or to restart the process.

Even Boston's great D had trouble with us in the playoffs.

Now I guess well that's why I wanted Jamal, to kind of work some of that, but Rip can certainly dribble more than Bogans, it's not like we have to turn him into Korver just because we would be using PnR more.

[bullsnewdynasty]

This is just my opinion but I don't think Thibodeau spends all that much time on the offensive side of the ball, which is why our offense really doesn't look that polished. If you ever watched Utah's offense when Sloan was there, it was running like a well oiled machine. Guys knew where they were supposed to be, everyone had great chemistry, and lots of crisp cutting off the ball. It seems like Thibodeau has the philosophy that the offense will just take care of itself. Unfortunately teams will scout you and adjustments need to be made to maximize the effectiveness of your players. Like people have been saying, we need way less Boston baseline screen plays and lots more simple isolation and pick and roll. I know people hated it but the Vinny "players make plays" offense might actually fit better with this group of players. Use a steady diet of high and wing pick and roll, and some isolation/curl action mixed in.

[jl342323]

That is One of OUR Top 2 Problems on Offense.

Top problem, being people are just JACKING Jumpshots & not taking the ball to the rim.

Second being Thibs is so hellbent on running that BOSTON OFFENSE (Floppy & Hi Post action w/ Noah) like they do with KG that it actually slows our team down. I, for one , don't like the idea of Joakim initiating offense at all.

His passing is good, but not good enough to set up offense a la KG.

noah is a good dribbler too with decent handle for his size. i want to see him put up more running layups. i think that could be his go to move on the high post.

i still believe everyone will play at their peak this year. we have too much talent and too many great people on our team to be negative about their progress at this point. game vs the kings would be the 3rd preseason game. this team will be fine, i guarantee it. including boozer

[m_willis01]

But I do think there may have been a little over giddiness about Rip Hamilton, even in the coaching staff, maybe thinking, hey Rip = Ray Allen, let's plug Rip into a bunch of Ray sets! As well even extending to Rose, who seemed constantly looking to get the ball to Rip, perhaps ignoring other things that might have been available.

Does anyone know how many "Ray Sets" we Ran the first 2 games??

I swear it felt like 90 % of the Offense ....

Boozer on the Block is just average. Thibs just needs to move on with that and just run more Drags.

[alucryts]

This is just my opinion but I don't think Thibodeau spends all that much time on the offensive side of the ball, which is why our offense really doesn't look that polished. If you ever watched Utah's offense when Sloan was there, it was running like a well oiled machine. Guys knew where they were supposed to be, everyone had great chemistry, and lots of crisp cutting off the ball. It seems like Thibodeau has the philosophy that the offense will just take care of itself. Unfortunately teams will scout you and adjustments need to be made to maximize the effectiveness of your players. Like people have been saying, we need way less Boston baseline screen plays and lots more simple isolation and pick and roll. I know people hated it but the Vinny "players make plays" offense might actually fit better with this group of players. Use a steady diet of high and wing pick and roll, and some isolation/curl action mixed in.

Utah truly was "Thibs Defense" on offense. It was a beautiful thing to watch. One thing that dropped my jaw was how devastating Boozer was as the roll man in Utah.

With all of this video, isn't it obvious how crazily wide open the pick and pop is for the roll man? Now do you guys see why I am DROOLING over the thought of that being Mirotic?

[bullsnewdynasty]

What do you think about trading for a guy like Channing Frye? Maybe in a deal centered around Taj.

[m_willis01]

With all of this video, isn't it obvious how crazily wide open the pick and pop is for the roll man? Now do you guys see why I am DROOLING over the thought of that being Mirotic?

Can't we just go ahead & send Noah to Spain for Mirotic lol

[alucryts]

To illustrate how devastating he was:

Boozer PNR roll man Utah:

222 attempts
1.27 ppp ( )
62.9% fg%
10.4% sf

To put that in perspective, that efficiency is better than Lebron James on the fast break last year.

[alucryts]

What do you think about trading for a guy like Channing Frye? Maybe in a deal centered around Taj.

I would be open to this. He would be a great fit on the offensive end at least.

[deadstock_bM]

The PnR at 2:50 in Rerisen's linked video. The spacing on that side of the floor is ridiculous.

[pduh01]

First off great stuff alucryts......

At this moment I feel that at times Noah needs to adjust, move out of the way to make room with the pick & roll with Rose & Boozer, maybe some pick & pop regarding Rose & Boozer with Noah near the basket to get the offensive boards if needed.

When I rewatched the Warriors game, our offense looked great with the starters out there.....we just kept making unforced silly turnovers. We were getting excellent open shots on them with team passing; the timing and precision just wasn't there yet.

I notice something about that game we have some players doing some post up plays one with Rip, couple times with Deng, and one with Noah, and Boozer.

I still think the ball movement, and off the ball movement needs to be better though. Lakers game there to many stand around, the Warriors game it is a little bit better but needs to be more active with the ball & off the ball movements.

[jl342323]

To illustrate how devastating he was:

Boozer PNR roll man Utah:

222 attempts
1.27 ppp ( )
62.9% fg%
10.4% sf

To put that in perspective, that efficiency is better than Lebron James on the fast break last year.

that is pretty amazing and unlike Lebron on fastbreak, defenses were geared to stop the dwill/booz pnr

[Rerisen]

Just to kind of get a baseline from people, and we haven't talked about this much in this thread, but it's hit up often other places, what is the numbers difference between Deron/Rose as the PG of the PnR?

I.e. if Rose is in Utah in 2010, what is Carlos Boozer's stats. What they were with Deron is 19.5 PPG, .599 TS%.

That's one of Booze's higher efficiency marks. I tend to think Rose gets a little too much scapegoating from the Boozer fans here, and while Rose is obviously no Deron, the difference would not be *that* great. See Boozer's production his first month here when Noah was out last year as evidence.

I think in Utah, Booze still puts up 19 PPG, and maybe .580 TS% or something like that with Rose.

Ceiling here with the Bulls being a bit less than that, because of 2 years older, and non-PG personnel. Maybe 18.5 PPG and .570 TS% - if he's healthy, and we get this mess cleaned up. Right now were far from there.

[bullsnewdynasty]

I actually think it would work better if we dealt Omer in that potential trade.

Boozer/Taj
Noah/Frye

Or start Frye and make Noah the 6th man.

[alucryts]

First off great stuff alucryts......

At this moment I feel that at times Noah needs to adjust, move out of the way to make room with the pick & roll with Rose & Boozer, maybe some pick & pop regarding Rose & Boozer with Noah near the basket to get the offensive boards if needed.

When I rewatched the Warriors game, our offense looked great with the starters out there.....we just kept making unforced silly turnovers. We were getting excellent open shots on them with team passing; the timing and precision just wasn't there yet.

I notice something about that game we have some players doing some post up plays one with Rip, couple times with Deng, and one with Noah, and Boozer.

I still think the ball movement, and off the ball movement needs to be better though. Lakers game there to many stand around, the Warriors game it is a little bit better but needs to be more active with the ball & off the ball movements.

If Boozer can hit that pick and pop consistently, he is going to murder teams with it. That is what is going to happen this year if Boozer and Noah turn into a good fit. The help defender will have to travel much farther away from the basket leaving Noah wide open for offensive boards if Boozer is spotting up for a pick and pop.

The movement in the Warriors game imo was good. All movements served some purpose, they just weren't crisp enough for the Warriors gambling defense.

[jl342323]

I actually think it would work better if we dealt Omer in that potential trade.

Boozer/Taj
Noah/Frye

Or start Frye and make Noah the 6th man.

like you said earlier i think its pretty clear that thibs approach to offense is "the defense will take care of offense." so i dont think thibs would ever start frye with booz.

it would be fun watching them play offense, but it was be devastating for our defense. i like frye tho

[pduh01]

I actually think it would work better if we dealt Omer in that potential trade.

Boozer/Taj
Noah/Frye

Or start Frye and make Noah the 6th man.

To be honest I don't really view Frye a actual center, I view him more of a stretch four. With this team it may work in some degree with Frye & Noah on the court at the same time, and same with Boozer & Frye though.

I probably put Frye as a sixth man.

But I do not like Frye's contract that much...