What Happened to Kirk Hinrich?

[bullsnewdynasty]

The Bulls' #1 priority should be trading Hinrich for an expiring contract at the trade deadline.

Why? Is it because you want...

a) to not have his expiring contract as a trade asset for matching purposes this summer when we're not bound by the apron hard cap

b) to have a different 5th/6th guard/13th man next season

c) to save the owners some coin next year

Because we don't need him, at all. He brings nothing to the table. He's not an adequate SG option and the Bulls don't need a $4 million 10 mpg backup to Rose. That money can be better allocated somewhere else. Hell, Belinelli and Robinson combined make about $1 million less than Hinrich. His salary slot could easily fill 2-3 more productive players.

[musiqsoulchild]

What happened to Kirk?

He is playing out of position and many more minutes than are needed for optimal productivity.

10 minutes as backup PG to Rose and then 8 minutes as SG next to Rose for set shots. The extra time that Rose's drive game will generate should help Kirk's shot considerably.

I dont think CJ as starting PG could have led us to the position we are in right now record wise.

Wow, the Bulls paid $4 million for an 18 mpg player who won't score more than 5 ppg when he's on the court?

The Bulls' #1 priority should be trading Hinrich for an expiring contract at the trade deadline.

I was talking about 18 playoff minutes.

And yes, he maybe a tad overpaid.....but we needed someone who could run the team.

[Red8911]

Back in 07 I actually thought Kirk would get better as he gets older especially in his 30s like nash ,but that didn't happen.Who knows why maybe after that big contact he just stopped working hard or his body can't handle this nba game as well as he used to and he's slowly breaking down..But lets not get carried away and say he's a horrible player like many here believe. He's actually done a decent job in roses absence.The play making and defense has helped this team win games..Im a fan of Hinrich,I respect him for everything he's done for the bulls all these years and I'm glad he's back again,Also I hope he wins a championship here,I know he loves the bulls and chicago as well.

[League Circles]

Because we don't need him, at all. He brings nothing to the table.

Actually, when you look at which deals we have on the books to trade for matching purposes this summer, he brings something (his contract) that might be the difference (due only to matching requirements) between us getting a much better player (packaging Kirk with any of RIP, Jimmy, Teague, Taj, Boozer, Deng or picks) this summer. And especially with Thibbs' complicated schemes, I'd much rater make a big acquisition in the summer to have a camp to gel than in a mid-season trade.

He's not an adequate SG option and the Bulls don't need a $4 million 10 mpg backup to Rose.

As fans, we shouldn't need the owners to split an extra 4 mil, if you look at it from our perspective of what we should want.

That money can be better allocated somewhere else.

Yet, the CBA doesn't allow Kirk's salary to be allocated elsewhere.

Hell, Belinelli and Robinson combined make about $1 million less than Hinrich. His salary slot could easily fill 2-3 more productive players.

There are no such things as salary slots. Don't let other posters or the truth of/or your perception of the financial willingness of the FO to spend or not distract you from what they can do and what they should do to field the best team. Regardless of whether or not they do or what it might be, we shouldn't act like the Bulls have some arbitrary dollar amount budget for player salaries. I admit they might, but from our perspective they shouldn't, and they definitely don't have to. Best thing for the Bulls to do this summer barring trades is go into the next year with:

1: Rose, Teague, Kirk
2: RIP, 3 mil MMLE (Marco?)/5 mil TPE acquisition, 1st round pick
3: Deng, Butler
4: Boozer, Taj
5: Noah, 5 mil TPE acquisition/3 mil MMLE

plus one vet minimum signing (Nate?) or our 2nd rounder

[Rerisen]

Efficiency is pretty damn important for players with really high usage/FGAs, but for low volume players, to me, neither high nor low efficiency is that important.

That depends who your teammates are. Low volume player next to Durant and Westbrook (i.e. Thabo) its not very important, him passing up shots or being unable to take advantage of opportunities to create them means little, can just pass to a elite scorer who can do it on demand or better. Low volume guy not being able to take advantage of opportunities in lineups with other limited scorers, then it begins to hurt the efficiency of other players on the floor, as they are forced to pick up for your slack, and often to the detriment of their own stats, as they aren't very good at desperation moves either, and this definitely applies to many current Bulls lineups.

Kirk could easily be a mid volume horrible efficiency guy instead of a low volume horrible efficiency guy (and that would not be good either), but he just offloads those bad situations onto others by passing up shots, or dribbling around some more and making someone else put up the bad shot.

Even when Rose was healthy this kind of effect was clearly visible in the lineup data with Keith Bogans as such a low volume guy. Every starter got better on/off in other lineups combinations where Keith was replaced by his backups. And we know defense wasn't Bogans problem, he was decent there. Kirk is not having this level of detriment though because his backup, Robinson, his so terrible on defense, his offensive upgrade is being offset by bad D.

[pduh01]

People ask what happen to Kirk Hinrich? Honestly, while he is old, and may slow down a little bit but honestly he is the same old Kirk Hinrich minus his shooting have gotten bad.

Kirk Hinrich to this date he can still play physical, good, and tough defense. He can still run the offense like he was when he first enter the league. However in other areas aspect of the game he is not good at anymore, or never good at the begin with. He never was the fastest, nor athletic as we all know, he never known as a great offensive threat, nor a great shooter even though his early days he is at least a decent shooter. But he isn't a decent shooter anymore he have been a horrible shooter he is like the Chris Duhon out there, play hard, solid defense, and running the offense but can't make open jumpers to save his life.

What happen to his shooting? All I can think of is his confidence, or bad luck. The better question should be what happen to his shooting.

[League Circles]

Efficiency is pretty damn important for players with really high usage/FGAs, but for low volume players, to me, neither high nor low efficiency is that important.

That depends who your teammates are. Low volume player next to Durant and Westbrook (i.e. Thabo) its not very important, him passing up shots or being unable to take advantage of opportunities to create them means little, can just pass to a elite scorer who can do it on demand or better. Low volume guy not being able to take advantage of opportunities in lineups with other limited scorers, then it begins to hurt the efficiency of other players on the floor, as they are forced to pick up for your slack, and often to the detriment of their own stats, as they aren't very good at desperation moves either, and this definitely applies to many current Bulls lineups.

Agreed. Fortunately, Kirk plays with 3-4 other very capable scorers (for their positions) for most of his minutes (now, in Boozer and Deng for sure, Noah and RIP/Marco have solid scoring capabilities for their spots also). Kirk will be really, really bad IMO if he has to play in groups like

Noah
Taj
Butler
anyone
Kirk

...though. That's why I think Nate should usually back up Rose when he returns. I'd maybe try to give Kirk and Nate Rose's backups minutes just to keep them both fresh, but Kirk should also get some DNPs cause right now, he's probably our 4th best SG.

[League Circles]

wait I forgot about Daequan! Kirk is currently our 5th best SG behind RIP, Marco, Butler and Cook!

[Rerisen]

It seems that Nate's efforts as a starter have caused the board to come around a little bit on Hinrich's value to the team running the show, which is a good thing. This realization coupled with Boozer's great play has made the board a very different place lately.

It's more about Boozer than Kirk.

Nate starting only ever made sense if Taj also started, to offset the defensive loss. Nate is probably the worst defender on the team, but Taj for Boozer is the single biggest defensive upgrade we can make. When Boozer was sucking it up, in addition to Kirk, this was a valid solution, as our offense was careening toward bottom 5. Though unfortunately unrealistic because of the media attention that would surround benching Booze.

But now that Boozer is coming around, Hinrich's inept offense is no longer so punishing to the team, and also a Robinson for Boozer tradeoff is no longer a desirable one offensively.

To me a player should never be evaluated entirely in a vacuum. As long he has some redeeming qualities that are better than an alternative, his value can wax or wane based on what his teammates can provide in relation to that. It's always a 5v5 game, and not 5 1v1s.

[League Circles]

It seems that Nate's efforts as a starter have caused the board to come around a little bit on Hinrich's value to the team running the show, which is a good thing. This realization coupled with Boozer's great play has made the board a very different place lately.

It's more about Boozer than Kirk.

Nate starting only ever made sense if Taj also started, to offset the defensive loss. When Boozer was sucking it up, in addition to Kirk, this was a valid solution, as our offense was careening toward bottom 5. Though unfortunately unrealistic because of the media attention that would surround benching Booze.

Agreed.

But now that Boozer is coming around, Hinrich's inept offense is no longer so punishing to the team, and also a Robinson for Boozer tradeoff is no longer a desirable one offensively.

haha great ninja edit! You edited the "little bit" before I clicked apparently! I was about to bust out some 21 and 11 on 51% for the last 9 games stuff...

[Rerisen]

Yeah, he's been much better lately not just a little. That was probably my skepticism creeping in that he will be able to keep it up all the rest of the year. I always said Boozer was going to come up, and not finish sub .500 TS%, but catching last year's totals still looks highly highly unlikely.

Boozer last 9 games is at .564 TS%. Still not Utah Boozer, but a level we would have to be fairly happy with.

[League Circles]

Back to Kirk, though, I basically think he never hurts you quite as much as the numbers show, and while we're stuck with his deal which is overpaid, he may have value as I've said in trade this summer, and if not, he's a very good 5th guard IMO. Kind of the ideal realistic 5th guard. Though it'd be cool to upgrade the guys ahead of him over him, it's too late now in a sense and we're probably better off just using him as a 5th guard and paying to upgrade the guys who actually play (via the TPE and MMLE) than by trying to get rid of him, cause there's no way he has positive value. There's probably not a better player than Kirk in the league who could be traded for him straight up, considering matching rules.

[HomoSapien]

What happened to Kirk?

He is playing out of position and many more minutes than are needed for optimal productivity.

10 minutes as backup PG to Rose and then 8 minutes as SG next to Rose for set shots. The extra time that Rose's drive game will generate should help Kirk's shot considerably.

I dont think CJ as starting PG could have led us to the position we are in right now record wise.

Wait what?

Kirk Hinrich is not a shooting guard. When Hinrich had to move to the two to make room for Rose, we hard people argue that he struggled because he was out of position. Now that he's struggling at the one, the argument as shifted again? He's struggling because he's bad.

[League Circles]

Wait what?

Kirk Hinrich is not a shooting guard. When Hinrich had to move to the two to make room for Rose, we hard people argue that he struggled because he was out of position. Now that he's struggling at the one, the argument as shifted again? He's struggling because he's bad.

I think it can definitely be argued that Kirk is now more of a natural 2 than 1. PGs are usualy much quicker penetrators now than him and his physical style D and spot up 3 point shooting make him like a 2 which he has now played in much of his career in all stops IIRC (in college I believe, here with Duhon, BG and Rose, Washington with Wall and other small guards, Atlanta the same, and now looking forward the next year and a half with Rose. He's a true combo. He can play either style pretty much equally adequately depending on team need, and he's sized between the two spots generically.

[Rerisen]

Back to Kirk, though, I basically think he never hurts you quite as much as the numbers show, and while we're stuck with his deal which is overpaid, he may have value as I've said in trade this summer, and if not, he's a very good 5th guard IMO. Kind of the ideal realistic 5th guard. Though it'd be cool to upgrade the guys ahead of him over him, it's too late now in a sense and we're probably better off just using him as a 5th guard and paying to upgrade the guys who actually play (via the TPE and MMLE) than by trying to get rid of him, cause there's no way he has positive value. There's probably not a better player than Kirk in the league who could be traded for him straight up, considering matching rules.

I don't see being able to move him either. Rose is out, so Kirk is going to play, that was obvious when he was signed. Even if Nate were to have started, Kirk would still have been playing at least 20 mpg.

When Rose comes back, Kirk will play waaaay less, maybe just 10-15 mpg once Rose is fully into the swing of things, and should become less of an issue.

It's next year where the real danger lies with Kirk. Justifying that (relatively) big contract by putting him at the starting SG. Not like we have a lot of money to work with either, which makes it more ominous.

[Rerisen]

I have always just called Kirk a combo, that's been his role, Chicago and elsewhere. When he was here before he played PG on offense and SG on defense next to Gordon. When Duhon started, Kirk played SG on offense, Chris was the point.

Last two years he played SG most often in Was and Atl. Now he is back to playing primarily PG. When Rose comes back, its quite possible he'll get more SG time, esp into next year.

When Kirk's shot was working and he was at least an average efficiency scorer, I think he was most ideal as a three-and-D type two guard next to a big time scoring PG (with a legit #2 somewhere else on the floor). Sort of a Bogans with more ball handling if you will - and its entirely possible the FO hoped for this to be the case for 2013-14. But now that he can't shoot straight, I'm not sure where he really fits in an ideal rotation, probably just as a very low minute combo backup, 3rd string.

[League Circles]

I have always just called Kirk a combo, that's been his role, Chicago and elsewhere. When he was here before he played PG on offense and SG on defense next to Gordon. When Duhon started, Kirk played SG on offense, Chris was the point.

Last two years he played SG most often in Was and Atl. Now he is back to playing primarily PG. When Rose comes back, its quite possible he'll get more SG time, esp into next year.

When Kirk's shot was working and he was at least an average efficiency scorer, I think he was most ideal as a three-and-D type two guard next to a big time scoring PG (with a legit #2 somewhere else on the floor). Sort of a Bogans with more ball handling if you will - and its entirely possible the FO hoped for this to be the case for 2013-14. But now that he can't shoot straight, I'm not sure where he really fits in an ideal rotation, probably just as a very low minute combo backup, 3rd string.

Well said. The idea should be Kirk not shooting inside the arc at all. Actually being a true 3 and D guy, but one who could dribble around and run a play when needed rather than trying to score inside where he's dreadful.

[musiqsoulchild]

I have always just called Kirk a combo, that's been his role, Chicago and elsewhere. When he was here before he played PG on offense and SG on defense next to Gordon. When Duhon started, Kirk played SG on offense, Chris was the point.

Last two years he played SG most often in Was and Atl. Now he is back to playing primarily PG. When Rose comes back, its quite possible he'll get more SG time, esp into next year.

When Kirk's shot was working and he was at least an average efficiency scorer, I think he was most ideal as a three-and-D type two guard next to a big time scoring PG (with a legit #2 somewhere else on the floor). Sort of a Bogans with more ball handling if you will - and its entirely possible the FO hoped for this to be the case for 2013-14. But now that he can't shoot straight, I'm not sure where he really fits in an ideal rotation, probably just as a very low minute combo backup, 3rd string.

His shooting will come back up.

Our team gets no easy baskets now. Like none. Some of it is the Asik effect. But the major driver is not having Rose penetrating deep and creating time/space for his teammates.

Once he gets back, I can see Kirk, Deng and Noah all improve on their PPG. The loser is going to be Boozer who will still need the play call.

[Rerisen]

His shooting will come back up.

It needs to come up a lot, like at least to Bogans level, if he is going to score so low volume. He's not asked to create or take tough shots, just make open jumpers. So far he isn't doing that well. Derrick Rose being on the floor might allow him to get more open shots but it shouldn't affect him making the ones he's already getting.

[jcuuofd]

Hinrich needs to work on a midrange floater. It is too late in his career to expect him to turn his 3 point shooting around. Midrange floaters are easier to improve at and it is a shot that would suit his abilities well. Hinrich is quick enough to get in the paint, but he is not athletic enough to finish past anyone around the basket. With a midrange floater he could throw it up before the defender could reach him and for most players who develop it, it is a high percentage shot. This would also help keep the defense honest and make them guard him when he starts to drive so that he can make easy assists to cutters or post players. This is also a shot that creates a lot of offensive rebounds and easy put backs if it is missed.