Ken Berger on the Bulls

[Stratmaster]

In the spirit of continuing to pull my share of the load. If I hear Rondo or Niko say "It's tough not knowing what your playing time is going to be game to game" I'm going to puke. What I want to hear one of these guys say is "it's tough not feeling guilty cashing my checks when I have played so poorly that I'm no longer even playing".

The lack of knowing ones role is a huge problem and that also includes minutes. Not many coaches can create environments for their players that can overcome the lack of consistent minutes. If you want someone who will be happy being jerked around in minutes, go get a vet who is past their prime for that job or do what Thibs did, basically not play young players(probably because of this problem). Let them hunger for playing time instead of picking out of a hat who's playing and who's getting a DNP. It's odd that people don't think stability has it's merits in basketball when it comes to rotations.

On players feeling guilty cashing checks after playing so poorly, that happens everywhere in basically every job. The players are practicing, putting in work like their teams have them do. Most players who you have a problem with should get what they deserve in the free agent market.

I completely understand it is more difficult to perform when you don't know your role. In the case of the 2 players I mentioned though, they did it to themselves, so they shouldn't bitch about it. They were playing and getting the minutes, and it was through their lack of performance and/or off the court actions that they lost those minutes. Hopefully they have both now climbed out of that hole.

Young players who are not expected to be big time star talent should come into the league expecting that their minutes will be jerked around. It comes with the territory. With that said, I don't recall any of the Bulls young players really complaining about it. Mcdermott may have mentioned something once or twice but I think his was more around the team not executing the game plan.

[AirP.]

I completely understand it is more difficult to perform when you don't know your role. In the case of the 2 players I mentioned though, they did it to themselves, so they shouldn't bitch about it. They were playing and getting the minutes, and it was through their lack of performance and/or off the court actions that they lost those minutes. Hopefully they have both now climbed out of that hole.

I'm not so sure about that. I think Mirotic has been encouraged to jack up shots beyond the arc because of the lack of 3pt shooting on the roster. There have been a TON of shots there's no way he should have been shooting that shot and been told not to take those shots and if that didn't work... PULL HIM INSTANTLY. That would be Mirotic doing it to himself but obviously he's not being jerked out of games for stupid shots so one has to assume he's encouraged to shoot those shots. Rondo is who he is which is why not many teams were interested in him, Chicago gave him good money and more then likely some assurances of his role which may or may not have happened. Once again if a playera isn't doing what the coach wants PULL THEM. The coach has to be in charge instead of the players running the team(you know, like players ignoring plays.... Rondo, Wade, Butler). This is where being a "buddy" coach doesn't work, you still have to be in charge or you're nothing more then a babysitter.

Young players who are not expected to be big time star talent should come into the league expecting that their minutes will be jerked around. It comes with the territory. With that said, I don't recall any of the Bulls young players really complaining about it. Mcdermott may have mentioned something once or twice but I think his was more around the team not executing the game plan.

All these young players basically have been one of their team's top players all their lives, it's a whole new experience in the NBA, I"m not sure how easy it is to just be happy to be there when it's not been that way all their lives. Personally I don't like having a lot of young players on a roster because it can cause some problems because everyone wants their chance, vets understand the league, the talent level and their role.

[JeremyB0001]

Berger, a long-time NBA writer, published a piece today on the Bulls. It covers a lot of what we've been discussing in other threads, but comes with his thoughts and information he's received from "sources"

Good article. I found the above section to be the most illuminating. Many have insisted the Bulls have no plan or acted confounded by the plan. A minority of us (Duck comes to mind) have taken the position that the plan is pretty straightforward and has been pretty obvious since this past off-season: It's to maintain cap space for 2018 in the hopes that other teams have spent all of theirs in 2016 and 2017 and that it's become a buyer's market. It's notable that Berger and his executive source also seem to find this plan relatively clear and intuitive. (Although Berger views the plan as being dependent on the Bulls landing superstars with the cap space. I think that the Bulls plainly understand that it's hard to land superstars and have contingency plans for the cap space such as getting assets back in exchange for taking on bad or at least big contracts.)

Posters are "confounded" due to the fact that it's a mind-numbingly, god awful plan. A how could any rational human being actually believe it's a good idea type of disbelief.

The 2018 FA class is terrible. Multiple posters have already highlighted that in this short thread. The marginal players we pick up will not be worth having burned a year of Jimmy's prime, and further tarnishing the org's reputation of recent dysfunction.

Here's the issue I have with trying to make the team better via 2018 free agency (and apparently treading water again for another offseason in 2017). In the 2018 offseason period, Jimmy Butler will be going into the last year of his deal, and therefore his trade value will be considerably lower than it is now. If you strike out with the big names in free agency and fail to build a contender, there is a reasonably good chance Butler will walk. The chance you keep him is if he meets the requirements for the designated player max contract and wants that $200M contract (and the Bulls are willing to give it to him, which remains to be seen).

The 2018 free agency plan, assuming it involves keeping Butler through that offseason, presents a serious risk that the Bulls strike out in free agency and then don't get a whole lot for Butler, making them enter a tanking phase without loading up on any assets in advance.

Given all that, it seems to me the Bulls need to figure out their path (tank or acquiring good players) this offseason, not next offseason.

I'm not talking about disagreeing with the plan. All sorts of people are going to have all kinds of varying opinions about which plan is best and the quality of this particular plan. I'm talking about people who say that the Bulls' plan is incoherent or nonexistent. I've even seen people suggesting that when the Bulls brass talks about its plan, that's a bald-faced knowing lie because the front office has in fact not come up with a plan at all and is just falsely telling the media that it has a plan for public relations purposes. The point is that, regardless of whether it's a good plan or an awful plan, the logic and the outline of the plan are clear. For those who disagree with the plan, I think it's counterproductive to conflate disagreement with the plan with denial that the plan exists or is known.

[blumeany]

Stop me if you've heard this before: "The Bulls have a plan to maximize their assets and free up cap space for a really big run in <insert year here>."

[Hangtime84]

Stop me if you've heard this before: "The Bulls have a plan to maximize their assets and free up cap space for a really big run in <insert year here>."

2018

[jnrjr79]

Good article. I found the above section to be the most illuminating. Many have insisted the Bulls have no plan or acted confounded by the plan. A minority of us (Duck comes to mind) have taken the position that the plan is pretty straightforward and has been pretty obvious since this past off-season: It's to maintain cap space for 2018 in the hopes that other teams have spent all of theirs in 2016 and 2017 and that it's become a buyer's market. It's notable that Berger and his executive source also seem to find this plan relatively clear and intuitive. (Although Berger views the plan as being dependent on the Bulls landing superstars with the cap space. I think that the Bulls plainly understand that it's hard to land superstars and have contingency plans for the cap space such as getting assets back in exchange for taking on bad or at least big contracts.)

Posters are "confounded" due to the fact that it's a mind-numbingly, god awful plan. A how could any rational human being actually believe it's a good idea type of disbelief.

The 2018 FA class is terrible. Multiple posters have already highlighted that in this short thread. The marginal players we pick up will not be worth having burned a year of Jimmy's prime, and further tarnishing the org's reputation of recent dysfunction.

Here's the issue I have with trying to make the team better via 2018 free agency (and apparently treading water again for another offseason in 2017). In the 2018 offseason period, Jimmy Butler will be going into the last year of his deal, and therefore his trade value will be considerably lower than it is now. If you strike out with the big names in free agency and fail to build a contender, there is a reasonably good chance Butler will walk. The chance you keep him is if he meets the requirements for the designated player max contract and wants that $200M contract (and the Bulls are willing to give it to him, which remains to be seen).

The 2018 free agency plan, assuming it involves keeping Butler through that offseason, presents a serious risk that the Bulls strike out in free agency and then don't get a whole lot for Butler, making them enter a tanking phase without loading up on any assets in advance.

Given all that, it seems to me the Bulls need to figure out their path (tank or acquiring good players) this offseason, not next offseason.

I'm not talking about disagreeing with the plan. All sorts of people are going to have all kinds of varying opinions about which plan is best and the quality of this particular plan. I'm talking about people who say that the Bulls' plan is incoherent or nonexistent. I've even seen people suggesting that when the Bulls brass talks about its plan, that's a bald-faced knowing lie because the front office has in fact not come up with a plan at all and is just falsely telling the media that it has a plan for public relations purposes. The point is that, regardless of whether it's a good plan or an awful plan, the logic and the outline of the plan are clear. For those who disagree with the plan, I think it's counterproductive to conflate disagreement with the plan with denial that the plan exists or is known.

Right. I wasn't responding to your contention that a plan exists. There are plenty of indications one does. I was just providing my own thoughts on the portion of the article that you referenced as being the "most illuminating." I agree it was the most significant part of the article and wanted to express my concerns about it.

[drosestruts]

Stop me if you've heard this before: "The Bulls have a plan to maximize their assets and free up cap space for a really big run in <insert year here>."

I don't think this is unique to the Bulls.

[DRoseCantStop]

Remember when this franchise was considered one of the toughest in the league?

[vvgotgame19]

Back on track, mark me as opposed to this recycled "Have cap space improve through free agency" plan.

A) Because it has a low success rate

B) It's boring and wasteful to the present

C) These are the 2018 free agents:

Durant
Dirk
Wade
Brook Lopez
DeMarcus Cousins
Pau Gasol
Tony Parker
Rudy Gay
Derrick Favors
Trevor Ariza
Avery Bradley
Jabari Parker
Andrew Wiggins
Nick Young
Dante Exum
Julius Randle
Seth Curry
Doug McDermott
Rodney Hood
....other uninteresting names

Looking at this list I get a gloomy sinking feeling we could be in for a looooonngg drought of noncontention...

[Wingy]

I'm not talking about disagreeing with the plan. All sorts of people are going to have all kinds of varying opinions about which plan is best and the quality of this particular plan. I'm talking about people who say that the Bulls' plan is incoherent or nonexistent. I've even seen people suggesting that when the Bulls brass talks about its plan, that's a bald-faced knowing lie because the front office has in fact not come up with a plan at all and is just falsely telling the media that it has a plan for public relations purposes. The point is that, regardless of whether it's a good plan or an awful plan, the logic and the outline of the plan are clear. For those who disagree with the plan, I think it's counterproductive to conflate disagreement with the plan with denial that the plan exists or is known.

I hear ya, JB...but when the plan is so deeply, and obviously flawed, is it any wonder that folks feel like there is no real plan, and that we don't really know what we're doing?

This may be a turd analogy, but here goes. It's like saying - I want to get rich. So, I'm going to quit my job and analyze lottery numbers, then I'm going to invest all my time and effort in investing in these lottery strategies. Sure it can be categorized as a "plan", but every rational person knows that it's an horrific and horrible plan to the point that one would really need to throw it away and come up with something totally different in order to actually achieve the goal.

In that sense, how is it hard to believe that our current "plan" is perceived as no plan at all?

Key note: I'm not saying you even buy into said "plan."

[musiqsoulchild]

Stop me if you've heard this before: "The Bulls have a plan to maximize their assets and free up cap space for a really big run in <insert year here>."

This IS exactly how they've operated for the longest time. It's a philosophy that's independent of who is managing the team.

[johnnyvann840]

Remember when this franchise was considered one of the toughest in the league?

Wasn't long ago that opponents dreaded having to play the Bulls...... they might win but they knew they were in for a rough night and the Bulls were going to come hard in the 4th Q with D and intensity.

[Axxo]

I firmly believe the Bulls have managed to put together a coach and a collection of players who are the whiniest, most fragile wimps I have ever seen compete in professional sports. They at the same time have the biggest egos yet most fragile psyches of any people I have ever seen. They could keep a psych class busy for a whole semester using them as a case study.

I'm sick of trying to decide who is at fault. Get rid of Hoiberg, Rondo, Butler, Wade, Niko, Portis, Forman and Paxson and start it all over. I added Portis just because he doesn't seem to give a damn about anything.

Bunch of entitled wimpy jack asses getting paid to play a kids game and whining and bitching the whole time.

Well damn Strat.

So your saying the Bulls built a team that took on exactly the same personality as the FO...hmm

[ralphisBullsFan]

The Bulls and the Bears are pitiful organizations

[JeremyB0001]

I'm not talking about disagreeing with the plan. All sorts of people are going to have all kinds of varying opinions about which plan is best and the quality of this particular plan. I'm talking about people who say that the Bulls' plan is incoherent or nonexistent. I've even seen people suggesting that when the Bulls brass talks about its plan, that's a bald-faced knowing lie because the front office has in fact not come up with a plan at all and is just falsely telling the media that it has a plan for public relations purposes. The point is that, regardless of whether it's a good plan or an awful plan, the logic and the outline of the plan are clear. For those who disagree with the plan, I think it's counterproductive to conflate disagreement with the plan with denial that the plan exists or is known.

I hear ya, JB...but when the plan is so deeply, and obviously flawed, is it any wonder that folks feel like there is no real plan, and that we don't really know what we're doing?

This may be a turd analogy, but here goes. It's like saying - I want to get rich. So, I'm going to quit my job and analyze lottery numbers, then I'm going to invest all my time and effort in investing in these lottery strategies. Sure it can be categorized as a "plan", but every rational person knows that it's an horrific and horrible plan to the point that one would really need to throw it away and come up with something totally different in order to actually achieve the goal.

In that sense, how is it hard to believe that our current "plan" is perceived as no plan at all?

Key note: I'm not saying you even buy into said "plan."

I don't know whether it's surprising for people to talk that way. I just think it's counterproductive. Maybe it's just speaking figuratively but to me it's disingenuous when someone says that there's no plan when really the issue is that he hates the plan. I feel like maybe the person is trying to mislead me. Or maybe the person is trying to exaggerate his position - it's not good enough to critique the plan, he has to overreach and assert that there isn't one. To me, criticism of the plan is a lot more criticism if the critic acknowledges the plan and its logic and then refutes it than it is if the person just dismisses the plan by claiming it's no plan at all. I'm not convinced that this is a great plan but I strongly disagree that it's not worth acknowledging. Anyone who does that is going to make the plan look better by creating the impression that it's his problem because he doesn't understand the plan, not that the plan isn't wise.

[musiqsoulchild]

I'm not talking about disagreeing with the plan. All sorts of people are going to have all kinds of varying opinions about which plan is best and the quality of this particular plan. I'm talking about people who say that the Bulls' plan is incoherent or nonexistent. I've even seen people suggesting that when the Bulls brass talks about its plan, that's a bald-faced knowing lie because the front office has in fact not come up with a plan at all and is just falsely telling the media that it has a plan for public relations purposes. The point is that, regardless of whether it's a good plan or an awful plan, the logic and the outline of the plan are clear. For those who disagree with the plan, I think it's counterproductive to conflate disagreement with the plan with denial that the plan exists or is known.

I hear ya, JB...but when the plan is so deeply, and obviously flawed, is it any wonder that folks feel like there is no real plan, and that we don't really know what we're doing?

This may be a turd analogy, but here goes. It's like saying - I want to get rich. So, I'm going to quit my job and analyze lottery numbers, then I'm going to invest all my time and effort in investing in these lottery strategies. Sure it can be categorized as a "plan", but every rational person knows that it's an horrific and horrible plan to the point that one would really need to throw it away and come up with something totally different in order to actually achieve the goal.

In that sense, how is it hard to believe that our current "plan" is perceived as no plan at all?

Key note: I'm not saying you even buy into said "plan."

The Bulls bargained themselves an annual lumpsum of money ( profit from operations) before they quit their job and started analyzing lottery numbers.

Any additional success in the lottery is sweet music to the coffers ( each playoff round). This is the advantage of being in the Chi market and in the house that MJ and Scottie built.

[RedBulls23]

We as a franchise and team haven't even hit rock bottom yet.

Gar/Pax still have plenty of time to screw up this franchise even more. They certainly will be given that chance by JR.

[Proven_Winner]

We as a franchise and team haven't even hit rock bottom yet.

Gar/Pax still have plenty of time to screw up this franchise even more. They certainly will be given that chance by JR.

As a franchise we'll never hit rock bottom. This forever known as the house Jordan built so we're good there. As a team I think we're pretty much there. The record doesn't correlate but just look at the direction we're going in. We are sitting in basketball hell with a bad FO and coach, 3 years of in house fighting, and a roster that has very little synergy.

At least garbage teams know they're garbage and work to stack talents and assets to have a shot to better themselves. We stay content every season and stack nothing while picking in the end or middle of drafts hoping for the next butler or draymond.

[Chi town]

In the spirit of continuing to pull my share of the load. If I hear Rondo or Niko say "It's tough not knowing what your playing time is going to be game to game" I'm going to puke. What I want to hear one of these guys say is "it's tough not feeling guilty cashing my checks when I have played so poorly that I'm no longer even playing".

The lack of knowing ones role is a huge problem and that also includes minutes. Not many coaches can create environments for their players that can overcome the lack of consistent minutes. If you want someone who will be happy being jerked around in minutes, go get a vet who is past their prime for that job or do what Thibs did, basically not play young players(probably because of this problem). Let them hunger for playing time instead of picking out of a hat who's playing and who's getting a DNP. It's odd that people don't think stability has it's merits in basketball when it comes to rotations.

On players feeling guilty cashing checks after playing so poorly, that happens everywhere in basically every job. The players are practicing, putting in work like their teams have them do. Most players who you have a problem with should get what they deserve in the free agent market.

I completely understand it is more difficult to perform when you don't know your role. In the case of the 2 players I mentioned though, they did it to themselves, so they shouldn't bitch about it. They were playing and getting the minutes, and it was through their lack of performance and/or off the court actions that they lost those minutes. Hopefully they have both now climbed out of that hole.

Young players who are not expected to be big time star talent should come into the league expecting that their minutes will be jerked around. It comes with the territory. With that said, I don't recall any of the Bulls young players really complaining about it. Mcdermott may have mentioned something once or twice but I think his was more around the team not executing the game plan.

P R E A C H that truth!!!

MCW as well. You got your turn... you sucked really bad... you should shut up and then go overseas to get paid.

[samwana]

We as a franchise and team haven't even hit rock bottom yet.

Gar/Pax still have plenty of time to screw up this franchise even more. They certainly will be given that chance by JR.

As a franchise we'll never hit rock bottom. This forever known as the house Jordan built so we're good there. As a team I think we're pretty much there. The record doesn't correlate but just look at the direction we're going in. We are sitting in basketball hell with a bad FO and coach, 3 years of in house fighting, and a roster that has very little synergy.

At least garbage teams know they're garbage and work to stack talents and assets to have a shot to better themselves. We stay content every season and stack nothing while picking in the end or middle of drafts hoping for the next butler or draymond.

We may even have a Draymond or JB, but we don't have the staff and/or FO to develop those kind of players, so we'll never really know.