PG: Well at least we are getting healthy

[GameBredAPBT]

Exactly. Regarding being open to trading Zach. Problem we have is that role is going to be harder to change than most realize. Hard to take the ball away. You just can't win in this league playing like that with huge usage.

The best team in the league also has the highest usage player in the league. I expect I am misinterpreting your point. Can you clarify?

Lavine's style of play/shot selection isn't conducive to winning. He's a subpar playmaker when on ball but he's also very mediocre off ball. He needs to be an on ball scorer to make and impact but he can't run the team. I agree with Dice. If lavine can reign himself in he can be a legit positive impact but right now he doesn't still know the nuances of ball.

Also the people saying the offense looks better, because it WAS better for our role players. They get the ball moving around. If lavine could play like that AND score like he does, the team would be doing much better. Less of a "carrying the team" alpha and more of a "scoring leader" role. He would be a nice bonus then.

Bingo. If Zach were a legit #1 Guy, he’d have the Bulls at .500 or over right now, despite the bum teammates & despite the non existent coaching. He isn’t, not right now. I personally think he can get there, seeing as how he’s a late bloomer compared to a lot of other top guys his age, but I dunno if it’ll be with the bulls

If they’re dead set on having him play out his contract & seeing if he “gets it” over the next two seasons, then they *must* get some better passers on the team & a new coach. Can’t stress this enough

[dice]

You're joking right? That was supposed to be green font?
I was here. I was posting and responding. Why? Did Lavine play poorly last game?

the people who were saying "let's see what this team does w/o lavine holding them together!" sure weren't out in force. and after tonight's game they're back

Honestly I thought we were past having internal pissing matches about whether Zach is holding the team back. Monday just showed that those people were just waiting for the moment to start the garbage again. It literally took ONE game.

except that that never happened. you're creating paranoid scenarios in your own head. we have multiple examples in this thread of people riding to his defense when the team plays poorly. but nobody after the last game said "see, zach sucks." one guy's obviously sarcastic post consisted of two words: "trade zach?" zach backers like you took the bait and whined about it. that was the extent of the so-called anti-zach rhetoric

[ChiCitySPORTS#1]

This team wins at least 40 games if healthy. Make the playoffs with competent coaching. I think Lavine needs the most guidance on how to become elite tbh. It’s really such a big gap and it shows that players haven’t really developed

[drosereturn]

Exactly. Regarding being open to trading Zach. Problem we have is that role is going to be harder to change than most realize. Hard to take the ball away. You just can't win in this league playing like that with huge usage.

The best team in the league also has the highest usage player in the league. I expect I am misinterpreting your point. Can you clarify?

Lavine's style of play/shot selection isn't conducive to winning. He's a subpar playmaker when on ball but he's also very mediocre off ball. He needs to be an on ball scorer to make and impact but he can't run the team. I agree with Dice. If lavine can reign himself in he can be a legit positive impact but right now he doesn't still know the nuances of ball.

Also the people saying the offense looks better, because it WAS better for our role players. They get the ball moving around. If lavine could play like that AND score like he does, the team would be doing much better. Less of a "carrying the team" alpha and more of a "scoring leader" role. He would be a nice bonus then.

Whenever a guard has high usage and below average playmaking, your asking for disaster.
Trae Young gets away with it since he has elite scoring, shooting, and playmaking.
You cant even call Lavine elite shooter when hes terrible in the paint missing everything. Doesnt even have go to skill like floater.
Im even fine him sucking playmaking due to low iq but his defense has to be all-defensive to make up for it.

[Dan Z]

About what one would expect. Two crappy teams playing, each without their lead scorer, the home team wins. At least Coby continues to show signs of being Ben Gordon, or something like that, as opposed to the rookie bust he looked like until recently.

I will take a 6'4 Ben Gordon with higher upside.

If nothing else Coby can already dribble better than Ben Gordon ever did.

[PrimzyBulls81]

I dont understand the decision that OPJ comes from the bench!? Play the core together, damn it.

White, Zach when returns, Porter, Lauri, Carter should play together as much as possible.

[drosereturn]

The best team in the league also has the highest usage player in the league. I expect I am misinterpreting your point. Can you clarify?

Lavine's style of play/shot selection isn't conducive to winning. He's a subpar playmaker when on ball but he's also very mediocre off ball. He needs to be an on ball scorer to make and impact but he can't run the team. I agree with Dice. If lavine can reign himself in he can be a legit positive impact but right now he doesn't still know the nuances of ball.

Also the people saying the offense looks better, because it WAS better for our role players. They get the ball moving around. If lavine could play like that AND score like he does, the team would be doing much better. Less of a "carrying the team" alpha and more of a "scoring leader" role. He would be a nice bonus then.

Bingo. If Zach were a legit #1 Guy, he’d have the Bulls at .500 or over right now, despite the bum teammates & despite the non existent coaching. He isn’t, not right now. I personally think he can get there, seeing as how he’s a late bloomer compared to a lot of other top guys his age, but I dunno if it’ll be with the bulls

If they’re dead set on having him play out his contract & seeing if he “gets it” over the next two seasons, then they *must* get some better passers on the team & a new coach. Can’t stress this enough

I dont even expect .500. If Zach was good as advertised nobody else cares, they would be 8th seed or 1game behind minimum.
Why is BKN at 7th seed despite 50% of their cap wasted this season and having role players? Guys like Din and Levert are producing similar while making peanuts. Maybe, hes a 3rd option on a championship contender like Bucks if I am being very generous but having him as number 1 option is the worst since you cant even tank properly yet get these garbage #7 picks in a row.
He produces a lot but most of it has to do with usage and actually makes the team worse like you saw with post ACL Rose Bulls.

[Dresden]

Time to trade zach?

For some people it always be time to trade Zach. Notice the handles that are not popping tonight since we lost. Compare it to Monday night...

I would trade him. The price has to be right. It would be for the best though.

Tonight, the best thing happened. They "made up" for last win vs. Dallas. When you're on the road and you put min restrictions on your best guys, it's pretty much a tank job. I hope they lose all their remaining games. See what a new GM does and a real NBA coach.

Our best guys were all coming off injuries, that's why the minutes were restricted. If one of them played 35 minutes and then couldn't play again the next game, we'd be hearing how stupid the training staff was for allowing him to play so many minutes.

[WindyCityBorn]

Lavine's style of play/shot selection isn't conducive to winning. He's a subpar playmaker when on ball but he's also very mediocre off ball. He needs to be an on ball scorer to make and impact but he can't run the team. I agree with Dice. If lavine can reign himself in he can be a legit positive impact but right now he doesn't still know the nuances of ball.

Also the people saying the offense looks better, because it WAS better for our role players. They get the ball moving around. If lavine could play like that AND score like he does, the team would be doing much better. Less of a "carrying the team" alpha and more of a "scoring leader" role. He would be a nice bonus then.

Bingo. If Zach were a legit #1 Guy, he’d have the Bulls at .500 or over right now, despite the bum teammates & despite the non existent coaching. He isn’t, not right now. I personally think he can get there, seeing as how he’s a late bloomer compared to a lot of other top guys his age, but I dunno if it’ll be with the bulls

If they’re dead set on having him play out his contract & seeing if he “gets it” over the next two seasons, then they *must* get some better passers on the team & a new coach. Can’t stress this enough

I dont even expect .500. If Zach was good as advertised nobody else cares, they would be 8th seed or 1game behind minimum.
Why is BKN at 7th seed despite 50% of their cap wasted this season and having role players? Guys like Din and Levert are producing similar while making peanuts. Maybe, hes a 3rd option on a championship contender like Bucks if I am being very generous but having him as number 1 option is the worst since you cant even tank properly yet get these garbage #7 picks in a row.
He produces a lot but most of it has to do with usage and actually makes the team worse like you saw with post ACL Rose Bulls.

You guys are using strawmen. The fact that Zach isn't good enough to be a #1 doesn't change the fact that he is our best offensive option. Get better players to push him down the pecking order where he belongs. This all or nothing talk is just a garbage argument. He is being paid like the 2nd/3rd option he should be.

Only LaVine haters are still talking about whether he is a #1. Most of us have already moved on from that idea. If you are saying he cannot function without being the #1 option that is pure biased speculation because there is no one on this team he should defer too. Lauri had his opportunity this year and **** the bed. Porter is a limited role player. Carter doesn't project as much on offense. Coby White is literally the only other guy showing ability to take over games and he has had a very inconsistent rookie season.

Quite frankly it is really ridiculous that LaVine is the focus of anyone's criticism when he is BY FAR our best player. That may not mean much, but blame GarPax for that being case.

[Dresden]

We should really just hand the keys to Coby at PG next season. He and Zach will be Hell to defend.

That, and having some good shooters around those two. Porter might be a fit for that. Wendell should be doing nothing but shooting 3's this summer until his arms fall off.

[FranchisePlayer]

So are we still a better team without Lavine?
I didn't think so.

Can't wait to see Lavine/Porter/Markkanen/Carter all together playing solid minutes. I want to see how well they play together.

Don't hold your breath while waiting. How many games those guys have played together the past 2 years out of the what 144 possible?

[FranchisePlayer]

So are we still a better team without Lavine?
I didn't think so.

has anyone actually suggested that? strawman argument (look it up)

bulls are still better w/o lavine in the lineup over the last two seasons

and where were all the pro-lavine people after the last game? you can't just pop your head up when it's convenient and expect to be taken seriously

That's why I for one don't take those posters seriously. Talk is cheap. PG thread and all someone has to talk about is a guy who didn't even play? Uh oh, ok... Better just move on and let them And1 each other's posts and keep fooling themselves Lavine is a keeper no matter what.

[Stratmaster]

Exactly. Regarding being open to trading Zach. Problem we have is that role is going to be harder to change than most realize. Hard to take the ball away. You just can't win in this league playing like that with huge usage.

The best team in the league also has the highest usage player in the league. I expect I am misinterpreting your point. Can you clarify?

Lavine's style of play/shot selection isn't conducive to winning. He's a subpar playmaker when on ball but he's also very mediocre off ball. He needs to be an on ball scorer to make and impact but he can't run the team. I agree with Dice. If lavine can reign himself in he can be a legit positive impact but right now he doesn't still know the nuances of ball.

Also the people saying the offense looks better, because it WAS better for our role players. They get the ball moving around. If lavine could play like that AND score like he does, the team would be doing much better. Less of a "carrying the team" alpha and more of a "scoring leader" role. He would be a nice bonus then.

The offense looks better because Otto Porter.

The ball moved around the first 4:30 of the game tonight. It was moving great, right? That's what everyone was saying. The Bulls scored 4 points. Then Coby came in, the ball stopped moving, Coby started scoring, and the Bulls went on a run.

It's hilarious how it was always "no one on the team can create their own shot except Butler". Now it is "Lavine is creating his own shot, we have to move the ball more". How about we see Lavine play with Otto, Lauri, Coby and Val for a bit?

Lavine has been doing what he has to.

Nobody he was playing alongside could be a playmaker. Boylen refused to play Val, Porter was hurt. So Lavine did it.

No one else on the court could score. Coby was sucking ass until a few games ago. Otto was hurt. So Lavine had to score.

Yet, for there last 15-20 games, Lavine spent the first several minutes if each game deferring. The Bulls got worse.

He doesn't need to reign himself in (and that isn't what Dice said BTW). He needs players around him.

[Chi town]

We should really just hand the keys to Coby at PG next season. He and Zach will be Hell to defend.

Coby played and excellent floor game and missed a couple layups and passed to a couple wide open shots that didn’t go down. He could ya e very easily gone for 30 and 10.

I’d let him play PG for the rest of the season.

[Stratmaster]

the distinction is that just because a team is better with a player on the bench doesn't mean that the team is better off without him on the roster. there are other factors involved

You know I vehemently agree with you when we agree, and vehemently disagree when we disagree.

I got to call bull on this one. So... they are better off with Lavine on the roster, but not on the court? What, is he a world class cheerleader? Or should they make him assistant coach?

they HAVE BEEN better when he hasn't been on the court. that is statistical fact. but there is random variation involved along with unit performance factors. for example, a good player on a bad unit is going to have a negative +/-. or if he's a starter and the bench performs well the same thing will happen

And, this is a big one that is never mentioned, the player who plays the most minutes is inevitably tied to the team's overall performance and has little chance to deviate from it. So based on those variables the team hasn't necessarily been better when he is off the court.

[FranchisePlayer]

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[Stratmaster]

The best team in the league also has the highest usage player in the league. I expect I am misinterpreting your point. Can you clarify?

Lavine's style of play/shot selection isn't conducive to winning. He's a subpar playmaker when on ball but he's also very mediocre off ball. He needs to be an on ball scorer to make and impact but he can't run the team. I agree with Dice. If lavine can reign himself in he can be a legit positive impact but right now he doesn't still know the nuances of ball.

Also the people saying the offense looks better, because it WAS better for our role players. They get the ball moving around. If lavine could play like that AND score like he does, the team would be doing much better. Less of a "carrying the team" alpha and more of a "scoring leader" role. He would be a nice bonus then.

Bingo. If Zach were a legit #1 Guy, he’d have the Bulls at .500 or over right now, despite the bum teammates & despite the non existent coaching. He isn’t, not right now. I personally think he can get there, seeing as how he’s a late bloomer compared to a lot of other top guys his age, but I dunno if it’ll be with the bulls

If they’re dead set on having him play out his contract & seeing if he “gets it” over the next two seasons, then they *must* get some better passers on the team & a new coach. Can’t stress this enough

That's ridiculous. Michael freaking Jordan was on a sub .500 team. The fact you can even say that indicates a lack of understanding of the horrid quality of the players he has been playing alongside.

[Stratmaster]

the people who were saying "let's see what this team does w/o lavine holding them together!" sure weren't out in force. and after tonight's game they're back

Honestly I thought we were past having internal pissing matches about whether Zach is holding the team back. Monday just showed that those people were just waiting for the moment to start the garbage again. It literally took ONE game.

except that that never happened. you're creating paranoid scenarios in your own head. we have multiple examples in this thread of people riding to his defense when the team plays poorly. but nobody after the last game said "see, zach sucks." one guy's obviously sarcastic post consisted of two words: "trade zach?" zach backers like you took the bait and whined about it. that was the extent of the so-called anti-zach rhetoric

You need to go back and re-read that thread Dice. They aren't that long anymore. You couldn't have missed it.

[GameBredAPBT]

Lavine's style of play/shot selection isn't conducive to winning. He's a subpar playmaker when on ball but he's also very mediocre off ball. He needs to be an on ball scorer to make and impact but he can't run the team. I agree with Dice. If lavine can reign himself in he can be a legit positive impact but right now he doesn't still know the nuances of ball.

Also the people saying the offense looks better, because it WAS better for our role players. They get the ball moving around. If lavine could play like that AND score like he does, the team would be doing much better. Less of a "carrying the team" alpha and more of a "scoring leader" role. He would be a nice bonus then.

Bingo. If Zach were a legit #1 Guy, he’d have the Bulls at .500 or over right now, despite the bum teammates & despite the non existent coaching. He isn’t, not right now. I personally think he can get there, seeing as how he’s a late bloomer compared to a lot of other top guys his age, but I dunno if it’ll be with the bulls

If they’re dead set on having him play out his contract & seeing if he “gets it” over the next two seasons, then they *must* get some better passers on the team & a new coach. Can’t stress this enough

I dont even expect .500. If Zach was good as advertised nobody else cares, they would be 8th seed or 1game behind minimum.
Why is BKN at 7th seed despite 50% of their cap wasted this season and having role players? Guys like Din and Levert are producing similar while making peanuts. Maybe, hes a 3rd option on a championship contender like Bucks if I am being very generous but having him as number 1 option is the worst since you cant even tank properly yet get these garbage #7 picks in a row.
He produces a lot but most of it has to do with usage and actually makes the team worse like you saw with post ACL Rose Bulls.

True, although he’s a lot better than post ACL Derrick.

The one thing that I’ll say, is that Zach is a late bloomer. He was picked so low for a reason. He was more or less just a raw athlete without much discernible skill. The fact that he’s come as far as he has in a relatively short period of time, despite having only played for the two of the WORST, most self destructive franchises in the league, is pretty astounding. No one ever thought he would get this good, especially after the injury. So based on all of that, who’s to say that he will not continue improving? He has a ferocious work ethic, so why can’t it be done? He’s still young. In another season, under a real coach, he could clean up his deficiencies & be an elite, positive impact player. With the way he’s been trending upward, it could possibly happen

[dice]

You know I vehemently agree with you when we agree, and vehemently disagree when we disagree.

I got to call bull on this one. So... they are better off with Lavine on the roster, but not on the court? What, is he a world class cheerleader? Or should they make him assistant coach?

they HAVE BEEN better when he hasn't been on the court. that is statistical fact. but there is random variation involved along with unit performance factors. for example, a good player on a bad unit is going to have a negative +/-. or if he's a starter and the bench performs well the same thing will happen

And, this is a big one that is never mentioned, the player who plays the most minutes is inevitably tied to the team's overall performance and has little chance to deviate from it. So based on those variables the team hasn't necessarily been better when he is off the court.

it has nothing to do with the team's overall performance. it has to do with the team's performance when he's out there compared to when he isn't. the team is awful when he's on the bench and even worse when he's in the game