PaKii94 wrote:dunno if this has been posted. Big part of our defensive struggles
Yeah we're 30th in the league in P&R defense on the rollman. I've given up on the FO trading Vuc though. Just need to figure out how to defend 5 on 4.
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PaKii94 wrote:dunno if this has been posted. Big part of our defensive struggles
kodo wrote:PaKii94 wrote:dunno if this has been posted. Big part of our defensive struggles
Yeah we're 30th in the league in P&R defense on the rollman. I've given up on the FO trading Vuc though. Just need to figure out how to defend 5 on 4.
Jcool0 wrote:aguifs wrote:Do we have a friggin plan?
If the Bulls do, you would be complaining to much to ever hear it.
kodo wrote:PaKii94 wrote:dunno if this has been posted. Big part of our defensive struggles
Yeah we're 30th in the league in P&R defense on the rollman. I've given up on the FO trading Vuc though. Just need to figure out how to defend 5 on 4.
Jcool0 wrote:aguifs wrote:Do we have a friggin plan?
If the Bulls do, you would be complaining to much to ever hear it.
ChettheJet wrote:Again with the fickle one game makes a career decision. Vuc was just fine scoring 26 points in a win over ATL but he scores 9 in a loss and he's dirt. They got trounced in points in the paint, would have made a difference, It happened obviously late where Vuc got position and sealed his man behind him in the lane 6 feet from the basket , DeRozan had the ball at the top of the key and big shock, drove the left side of the lane to the basket for a miss. If they won't pass the ball to Vuc or Drummond for that matter when they have position or even better a mismatch from a switch, then they can't run out and get the ball so they can't score in the paint.
I don't now if Vuc looked for or had other offers when he resigned with the Bulls but as this season wears on I have to wonder if he isn't regretting staying here when he works hard to provide the size and post game only Andre else has, and has to hear the complaints about not scoring in the lane knowing he doesn't get the ball to do it. Ayo and AC, injury PWill are the ones who seem able to throw the ball into the post to score. Demar is reluctant at best and Zach for whatever reason consistently threw the ball at Vuc's knees and it was turnover time.
MrSparkle wrote:Vuc definitely has situational value. But man, he is so obviously not a top-3 option anymore. If Billy was coaching the 2014 Warriors, he’d be running Bogut for 39 mpg and giving him 18 FGAs.
The more I watch Billy, I appreciate some things about him (the camaraderie and defensive effort, team chemistry). In the grand scheme… whatever, we are not a good team on paper. No matter how you look at it, 3 young starters taking up 60% the cap are indefinitely out the rotation.
All I’m saying, is that Billy loses more games than your usual “good” coach. Honestly, come this summer, if the Bulls somehow double down on trying to win more games, it might be a great time to pursue Budenholzer and end the Donovan era. If I have to be entirely honest, on the off-chance Zach/Lonzo/Pat are available to play in low minute roles, the Bulls add a draft pick, and Coby/Ayo/Phillips/Terry take another step… a coach like Bud would win 50 games with this roster. I am fairly confident Billy has actually underperformed. Way too many games lost jamming Zach/Vuc/Demar/Pat in big minutes, we he had all these guys healthier and active.
I think it starts with overplaying Vuc, or not utilizing him in his best spaces. IMO he’s like a 6th man caliber guy right now, and either you token start him with limited closing minutes, or you literally move him to the 2nd unit. Billy lost TONS of games last year by icing Drummond.
But even in principle, just the offensive sets still seem awkward. Took frustrating meltdowns and closed locker meetings to air out roles. Maybe it was Zach’s fault, but maybe it was also the coach’s inability to figure this out? Just maybe?
There are 2 types of coaches; the kinds who could win upsets with JL3 filling in for an MVP Rose, and the kind who always seem to have an injury or effort excuse. Note that Thibs never really complained about player effort or injuries in pressers: “we have enough.” Same with Spo, Carlisle… these guys just work with their available parts. Bud managed multiple contending seasons with chronically injured Middleton, an injury prone Jrue, and Jevon Carter as his primary bench guard (who I guess is now struggling as a 3rd string PG on a sub-500 team, which is missing its “starting” backcourt to knee/foot surgeries).
So for the constant ragging on the roster and the injuries… I’m still adamant we have an underperforming stubborn coach. Good at player development, but I get the vibe we’re a basketball academy, not a pro team. Bud is out fishing.
I guess it’ll be important to see what direction they take, but we might want a more seasoned NBA coach for Coby, Ayo and Pat to take their next big steps… never mind the record.
The last thing, is on some level, Billy had to have input on ditching Lauri, Gafford, etc. I’m a little puzzled how a coach could mis-read players this much. Fine , I mis-read their potential by a mile, but I don’t get paid $6m a year to study and scheme basketball. I know that if he could visualize an inkling of Lauri’s looming talent, he would’ve never agreed for his FO to send him out for a journeyman coming off a career-low season, and a lotto protected pick.
ThreeYearPlan wrote:Bulls fans defend HomoSapien more than Rose.
MrSparkle wrote:Vuc definitely has situational value. But man, he is so obviously not a top-3 option anymore. If Billy was coaching the 2014 Warriors, he’d be running Bogut for 39 mpg and giving him 18 FGAs.
The more I watch Billy, I appreciate some things about him (the camaraderie and defensive effort, team chemistry). In the grand scheme… whatever, we are not a good team on paper. No matter how you look at it, 3 young starters taking up 60% the cap are indefinitely out the rotation.
All I’m saying, is that Billy loses more games than your usual “good” coach. Honestly, come this summer, if the Bulls somehow double down on trying to win more games, it might be a great time to pursue Budenholzer and end the Donovan era. If I have to be entirely honest, on the off-chance Zach/Lonzo/Pat are available to play in low minute roles, the Bulls add a draft pick, and Coby/Ayo/Phillips/Terry take another step… a coach like Bud would win 50 games with this roster. I am fairly confident Billy has actually underperformed. Way too many games lost jamming Zach/Vuc/Demar/Pat in big minutes, we he had all these guys healthier and active.
I think it starts with overplaying Vuc, or not utilizing him in his best spaces. IMO he’s like a 6th man caliber guy right now, and either you token start him with limited closing minutes, or you literally move him to the 2nd unit. Billy lost TONS of games last year by icing Drummond.
But even in principle, just the offensive sets still seem awkward. Took frustrating meltdowns and closed locker meetings to air out roles. Maybe it was Zach’s fault, but maybe it was also the coach’s inability to figure this out? Just maybe?
There are 2 types of coaches; the kinds who could win upsets with JL3 filling in for an MVP Rose, and the kind who always seem to have an injury or effort excuse. Note that Thibs never really complained about player effort or injuries in pressers: “we have enough.” Same with Spo, Carlisle… these guys just work with their available parts. Bud managed multiple contending seasons with chronically injured Middleton, an injury prone Jrue, and Jevon Carter as his primary bench guard (who I guess is now struggling as a 3rd string PG on a sub-500 team, which is missing its “starting” backcourt to knee/foot surgeries).
So for the constant ragging on the roster and the injuries… I’m still adamant we have an underperforming stubborn coach. Good at player development, but I get the vibe we’re a basketball academy, not a pro team. Bud is out fishing.
I guess it’ll be important to see what direction they take, but we might want a more seasoned NBA coach for Coby, Ayo and Pat to take their next big steps… never mind the record.
The last thing, is on some level, Billy had to have input on ditching Lauri, Gafford, etc. I’m a little puzzled how a coach could mis-read players this much. Fine , I mis-read their potential by a mile, but I don’t get paid $6m a year to study and scheme basketball. I know that if he could visualize an inkling of Lauri’s looming talent, he would’ve never agreed for his FO to send him out for a journeyman coming off a career-low season, and a lotto protected pick.
dougthonus wrote:MrSparkle wrote:Vuc definitely has situational value. But man, he is so obviously not a top-3 option anymore. If Billy was coaching the 2014 Warriors, he’d be running Bogut for 39 mpg and giving him 18 FGAs.
The more I watch Billy, I appreciate some things about him (the camaraderie and defensive effort, team chemistry). In the grand scheme… whatever, we are not a good team on paper. No matter how you look at it, 3 young starters taking up 60% the cap are indefinitely out the rotation.
All I’m saying, is that Billy loses more games than your usual “good” coach. Honestly, come this summer, if the Bulls somehow double down on trying to win more games, it might be a great time to pursue Budenholzer and end the Donovan era. If I have to be entirely honest, on the off-chance Zach/Lonzo/Pat are available to play in low minute roles, the Bulls add a draft pick, and Coby/Ayo/Phillips/Terry take another step… a coach like Bud would win 50 games with this roster. I am fairly confident Billy has actually underperformed. Way too many games lost jamming Zach/Vuc/Demar/Pat in big minutes, we he had all these guys healthier and active.
I think it starts with overplaying Vuc, or not utilizing him in his best spaces. IMO he’s like a 6th man caliber guy right now, and either you token start him with limited closing minutes, or you literally move him to the 2nd unit. Billy lost TONS of games last year by icing Drummond.
But even in principle, just the offensive sets still seem awkward. Took frustrating meltdowns and closed locker meetings to air out roles. Maybe it was Zach’s fault, but maybe it was also the coach’s inability to figure this out? Just maybe?
There are 2 types of coaches; the kinds who could win upsets with JL3 filling in for an MVP Rose, and the kind who always seem to have an injury or effort excuse. Note that Thibs never really complained about player effort or injuries in pressers: “we have enough.” Same with Spo, Carlisle… these guys just work with their available parts. Bud managed multiple contending seasons with chronically injured Middleton, an injury prone Jrue, and Jevon Carter as his primary bench guard (who I guess is now struggling as a 3rd string PG on a sub-500 team, which is missing its “starting” backcourt to knee/foot surgeries).
So for the constant ragging on the roster and the injuries… I’m still adamant we have an underperforming stubborn coach. Good at player development, but I get the vibe we’re a basketball academy, not a pro team. Bud is out fishing.
I guess it’ll be important to see what direction they take, but we might want a more seasoned NBA coach for Coby, Ayo and Pat to take their next big steps… never mind the record.
The last thing, is on some level, Billy had to have input on ditching Lauri, Gafford, etc. I’m a little puzzled how a coach could mis-read players this much. Fine , I mis-read their potential by a mile, but I don’t get paid $6m a year to study and scheme basketball. I know that if he could visualize an inkling of Lauri’s looming talent, he would’ve never agreed for his FO to send him out for a journeyman coming off a career-low season, and a lotto protected pick.
I don't know that you are wrong, but let me give you a few counter points:
1: Everyone wanted to bench Coby White and move to Jevon Carter because he was a better fit and Coby started off the season playing like trash. Donovan wanted to stick with Coby against great heat from Bulls nation, and Coby now looks like a star.
2: The most important thing that could happen this year is development of our young players (Ayo, Coby, and Pat). Two of the three have taken tremendous leaps forward
3: DeMar, at an advanced age, probably just played a few of the best seasons of his career at a point where that's incredibly unlikely
4: He's put in place a respectable-ish defense with one plus defender on the team
5: Donovan will likely beat the vegas odds for the Bulls in 3 out of 4 years. To assume that the Bulls have 13+ win potential over vegas odds with this roster and are only better coaching away from it seems like a totally absurd conclusion to draw.
I think when people evaluate coaches their evaluation is typically:
1: Assume everything good they've done or are doing is a given and will be continued by someone else
2: Assume the new guy will then fix all the bad things that the other guy did
Evaluation of coaches tends to be very hindsight based with people thinking with hindsight they can see what all the good coaching decisions are and would then make them but would not undo anything that worked, regardless of whether that looked likely or unlikely to work in the moment.
I don't know that Donovan is the best, but this team isn't a head coach away. We have perhaps the worst center rotation in the NBA, we lack shooting all over the floor and have no source of efficient offense, and we are full of mediocre defenders. Nothing about our roster says 50 win team. Of the teams in front of us, how many would you rather have our roster than theirs?
sco wrote:Maybe GS moving Thompson to the bench will inspire Billy to bench Vuc!
dougthonus wrote:MrSparkle wrote:Vuc definitely has situational value. But man, he is so obviously not a top-3 option anymore. If Billy was coaching the 2014 Warriors, he’d be running Bogut for 39 mpg and giving him 18 FGAs.
The more I watch Billy, I appreciate some things about him (the camaraderie and defensive effort, team chemistry). In the grand scheme… whatever, we are not a good team on paper. No matter how you look at it, 3 young starters taking up 60% the cap are indefinitely out the rotation.
All I’m saying, is that Billy loses more games than your usual “good” coach. Honestly, come this summer, if the Bulls somehow double down on trying to win more games, it might be a great time to pursue Budenholzer and end the Donovan era. If I have to be entirely honest, on the off-chance Zach/Lonzo/Pat are available to play in low minute roles, the Bulls add a draft pick, and Coby/Ayo/Phillips/Terry take another step… a coach like Bud would win 50 games with this roster. I am fairly confident Billy has actually underperformed. Way too many games lost jamming Zach/Vuc/Demar/Pat in big minutes, we he had all these guys healthier and active.
I think it starts with overplaying Vuc, or not utilizing him in his best spaces. IMO he’s like a 6th man caliber guy right now, and either you token start him with limited closing minutes, or you literally move him to the 2nd unit. Billy lost TONS of games last year by icing Drummond.
But even in principle, just the offensive sets still seem awkward. Took frustrating meltdowns and closed locker meetings to air out roles. Maybe it was Zach’s fault, but maybe it was also the coach’s inability to figure this out? Just maybe?
There are 2 types of coaches; the kinds who could win upsets with JL3 filling in for an MVP Rose, and the kind who always seem to have an injury or effort excuse. Note that Thibs never really complained about player effort or injuries in pressers: “we have enough.” Same with Spo, Carlisle… these guys just work with their available parts. Bud managed multiple contending seasons with chronically injured Middleton, an injury prone Jrue, and Jevon Carter as his primary bench guard (who I guess is now struggling as a 3rd string PG on a sub-500 team, which is missing its “starting” backcourt to knee/foot surgeries).
So for the constant ragging on the roster and the injuries… I’m still adamant we have an underperforming stubborn coach. Good at player development, but I get the vibe we’re a basketball academy, not a pro team. Bud is out fishing.
I guess it’ll be important to see what direction they take, but we might want a more seasoned NBA coach for Coby, Ayo and Pat to take their next big steps… never mind the record.
The last thing, is on some level, Billy had to have input on ditching Lauri, Gafford, etc. I’m a little puzzled how a coach could mis-read players this much. Fine , I mis-read their potential by a mile, but I don’t get paid $6m a year to study and scheme basketball. I know that if he could visualize an inkling of Lauri’s looming talent, he would’ve never agreed for his FO to send him out for a journeyman coming off a career-low season, and a lotto protected pick.
I don't know that you are wrong, but let me give you a few counter points:
1: Everyone wanted to bench Coby White and move to Jevon Carter because he was a better fit and Coby started off the season playing like trash. Donovan wanted to stick with Coby against great heat from Bulls nation, and Coby now looks like a star.
2: The most important thing that could happen this year is development of our young players (Ayo, Coby, and Pat). Two of the three have taken tremendous leaps forward
3: DeMar, at an advanced age, probably just played a few of the best seasons of his career at a point where that's incredibly unlikely
4: He's put in place a respectable-ish defense with one plus defender on the team
5: Donovan will likely beat the vegas odds for the Bulls in 3 out of 4 years. To assume that the Bulls have 13+ win potential over vegas odds with this roster and are only better coaching away from it seems like a totally absurd conclusion to draw.
I think when people evaluate coaches their evaluation is typically:
1: Assume everything good they've done or are doing is a given and will be continued by someone else
2: Assume the new guy will then fix all the bad things that the other guy did
Evaluation of coaches tends to be very hindsight based with people thinking with hindsight they can see what all the good coaching decisions are and would then make them but would not undo anything that worked, regardless of whether that looked likely or unlikely to work in the moment.
I don't know that Donovan is the best, but this team isn't a head coach away. We have perhaps the worst center rotation in the NBA, we lack shooting all over the floor and have no source of efficient offense, and we are full of mediocre defenders. Nothing about our roster says 50 win team. Of the teams in front of us, how many would you rather have our roster than theirs?
League Circles wrote:sco wrote:Maybe GS moving Thompson to the bench will inspire Billy to bench Vuc!
We should wait til the start of next season to bench Vuc, for the sole purpose of one last desperate attempt to pump and dump him, cause benching him will likely tank his already poor value. Same reason I haven't advocated benching Carter entirely even though based on performance he should be.
sco wrote:League Circles wrote:sco wrote:Maybe GS moving Thompson to the bench will inspire Billy to bench Vuc!
We should wait til the start of next season to bench Vuc, for the sole purpose of one last desperate attempt to pump and dump him, cause benching him will likely tank his already poor value. Same reason I haven't advocated benching Carter entirely even though based on performance he should be.
There is a big hole in that pool toy. Any pumping will result in a hissing out. But don't worry, Billy doen't want to make any waves in the Vuc pool.
League Circles wrote:sco wrote:League Circles wrote:We should wait til the start of next season to bench Vuc, for the sole purpose of one last desperate attempt to pump and dump him, cause benching him will likely tank his already poor value. Same reason I haven't advocated benching Carter entirely even though based on performance he should be.
There is a big hole in that pool toy. Any pumping will result in a hissing out. But don't worry, Billy doen't want to make any waves in the Vuc pool.
Idk, to me there is a much greater chance that another team will be able to talk themselves into taking on Vuc (largely as part of a bigger deal involving Caruso) if he's just been starting, possibly in the playoffs, especially if he shoots better than he has so far this year, than if he's been benched.
League Circles wrote:sco wrote:League Circles wrote:We should wait til the start of next season to bench Vuc, for the sole purpose of one last desperate attempt to pump and dump him, cause benching him will likely tank his already poor value. Same reason I haven't advocated benching Carter entirely even though based on performance he should be.
There is a big hole in that pool toy. Any pumping will result in a hissing out. But don't worry, Billy doen't want to make any waves in the Vuc pool.
Idk, to me there is a much greater chance that another team will be able to talk themselves into taking on Vuc (largely as part of a bigger deal involving Caruso) if he's just been starting, possibly in the playoffs, especially if he shoots better than he has so far this year, than if he's been benched.
sco wrote:League Circles wrote:sco wrote:There is a big hole in that pool toy. Any pumping will result in a hissing out. But don't worry, Billy doen't want to make any waves in the Vuc pool.
Idk, to me there is a much greater chance that another team will be able to talk themselves into taking on Vuc (largely as part of a bigger deal involving Caruso) if he's just been starting, possibly in the playoffs, especially if he shoots better than he has so far this year, than if he's been benched.
I understand, but disagree, with the notion of using an asset to rid ourselves of Vuc. I could be talked into the POR pick, but not Caruso. We'd be lucky to nab a late 1st and an expiring in a deal like that. If I'm trading Caruso, it's for a young player with upside and a late lotto 1st.