Peter Patton, director of player development, won't be back

[Grodoboldo]

What the actual ****?!?!?!?!

[coldfish]

:rofl:

You know everyone just hates these guys when people get up and arms about them being let go. If people loved AK, they'd be like "hell yeah, we're not settling for these guys, we're looking to improve!". I have no way to judge Patton or Weiman, and probably no one else does here either.

Weinman has been with the Bulls forever, and the Bulls have been absolutely backwards on analytics for almost all of that time. Maybe no one listened to Weinman, maybe Weinman is bad at his job, no way to know, but no one should be praising the Bulls analytics department under him.

Joe's got an anonymous player quote that could be from Talen Horten Tucker or some other nobody for all we know, and the assistant / development coaches are almost always among the most popular, so no surprise Patton was liked. Maybe Patton was great, maybe not. Ayo/Pat cratered with their shooting this year. Giddey/Terry saw some improvements. Coby was about the same. How much impact did Patton have and on who? No way to know.

AK's gotten to the billboard point where it really doesn't matter what he does, everyone will assume the worst.

FWIW, I also think AK sucks, and he may suck for this, I just have a hard time getting too up in arms for these types of moves where you really have nothing to go on.

What has everyone up in arms is the Cowley article that these guys were fired based on disagreeing with AK's general direction instead of their competence at their actual job.

I totally agree that we have no idea if these guys were competent or not. Is Cowley making it up that these guys were fired for not toeing the company line? Maybe but Cowley's hit rate isn't exactly zero.

As has been said, this comes after Gar Foreman basically trashed the team in an attempt to maintain loyalists everyone. Bulls fans are going to be sensitive to this accusation, which is perhaps why Cowley went there.

[waffle]

not good.

[Jeffster81]

So AK got tired of pissing off the fans, so he turns his attention to pissing off the players?

Cotton, that is definitely a bold strategy.

Otoh, the Bulls streak of having unlikeable FO will continue. So yay?

[dougthonus]

What has everyone up in arms is the Cowley article that these guys were fired based on disagreeing with AK's general direction instead of their competence at their actual job.

I totally agree that we have no idea if these guys were competent or not. Is Cowley making it up that these guys were fired for not toeing the company line? Maybe but Cowley's hit rate isn't exactly zero.

As has been said, this comes after Gar Foreman basically trashed the team in an attempt to maintain loyalists everyone. Bulls fans are going to be sensitive to this accusation, which is perhaps why Cowley went there.

Yeah, it's hard to know what to make of Cowley, his hit rate isn't exactly zero, he's willing to burn bridges to break stories. At the same point, he's just willing to trash everyone to trash everyone too, and the next time Cowley writes a positive story will also probably be the first.

[Indomitable]

Completely misplaced. I am willing to bet that no one was ever complaining about Peter Patton. AK? Sure. Billy Donovan? Sure. Not Peter Patton.
I would bet he was 0% on the radar for someone to be fired. So, I strongly disagree with that.

I didn't say people blamed Peter Patton.

I said people complained about player development all year. Peter Patton is in fact the head of player development. If people blamed player development on AK, AK's ability to alter player development is to change the player development staff. AK is not going and developing players himself.

So if you hate this firing, then it stands to reason that you think highly of our player development. If not, then what are we talking about here? You can't hate the player development, pin it on the GM, then yell at the GM for taking the only action he can to fix it.

But the real crux of the matter is AK is firing the coaching staff while doing nothing to the roster. That is why moves like this create more ire from the fans.

AK can literally not change the roster right now. I mean it's not even possible. But I agree, people hate this move because they now hate AK, which is exactly what I said. The actual merits of the move aren't involved or are at least minimally involved. The primary thing is people just hate AK and are made because they want him to fix things. The things he can address now are staff. That's it. So he's addressing staff.

Time will tell if these are good moves or bad moves based on the replacements.

People complained about Pat Williams and he is a lost cause.

Ayo massive improvement last year. Hurt most of this season.

Caruso last year here was a far better shooter.
Vuc improved to 40 % from distance.
Terry actually looked like a rotation player.

I wanted more playing time for Julian.
Matas improved throughout the season.

Patrick Williams is the player people complained about it. I don't anybody can help this nitwit out.

[DuckIII]

:rofl:

You know everyone just hates these guys when people get up and arms about them being let go. If people loved AK, they'd be like "hell yeah, we're not settling for these guys, we're looking to improve!". I have no way to judge Patton or Weiman, and probably no one else does here either.

Weinman has been with the Bulls forever, and the Bulls have been absolutely backwards on analytics for almost all of that time. Maybe no one listened to Weinman, maybe Weinman is bad at his job, no way to know, but no one should be praising the Bulls analytics department under him.

Joe's got an anonymous player quote that could be from Talen Horten Tucker or some other nobody for all we know, and the assistant / development coaches are almost always among the most popular, so no surprise Patton was liked. Maybe Patton was great, maybe not. Ayo/Pat cratered with their shooting this year. Giddey/Terry saw some improvements. Coby was about the same. How much impact did Patton have and on who? No way to know.

AK's gotten to the billboard point where it really doesn't matter what he does, everyone will assume the worst.

FWIW, I also think AK sucks, and he may suck for this, I just have a hard time getting too up in arms for these types of moves where you really have nothing to go on.

This is an overstatement. We have more than an anonymous player quote. I’ve heard a number of these guys crediting Patton throughout the year.

At the absolute bear minimum it is a poor look and really the burden falls on AK/Org to provide a good explanation.

[DuckIII]

You are well with in your right not to think these guys don't anything or have no idea what they actually do for the Bulls. Doesn't mean the rest of us have to agree with that.

You can think anything you want, obviously. I'm having a discussion because it seems topical. Are you just upset that I have stated an alternative view?

If I asked you yesterday, how well did we do developing players this year, what grade would you give them?

Our youngish players:

Ayo - cratered
Pat - cratered
Jalen - cratered
Coby - same as previous year
Giddey - progressed significantly as the season went on (improved shooting / foul drawing)
Matas - progressed significantly as the season went on (no prior baseline though and performed overall within reasonable expectations)

Lesser in importance
Philips - no meaningful development
Terry - went from non-NBA player to fringe rotation defensive specialist

Not sure if I'm missing anyone big here in my quick reply.

Seems like a whole lot of love for Patton based on those results.

How much of that can be blamed on the player development staff rather than external factors?

Pat's decline was likely influenced by injury and weight gain, anong other things. Ayo has always been inconsistent with his shot.

What we do know is Patton was highly thought of among most of the players.

Even moreso with Ayo, we forget it’s been revealed he’d been playing with a fractured shoulder for over a year that was getting progressively worse.

[Red8911]

We don’t know the real reason why AK fired Patton. Maybe he was too expensive and Reinsdorf didn’t want to continue paying him or other reasons we don’t know about.

Cowley as usual tries to create drama over nothing.Let’s not forget AK was the one who hired him in the first place.

I never see anyone praising AK over that move/hire but of course complain when he fires the guy.

[DuckIII]

Completely misplaced. I am willing to bet that no one was ever complaining about Peter Patton. AK? Sure. Billy Donovan? Sure. Not Peter Patton.
I would bet he was 0% on the radar for someone to be fired. So, I strongly disagree with that.

I didn't say people blamed Peter Patton.

I said people complained about player development all year. Peter Patton is in fact the head of player development. If people blamed player development on AK, AK's ability to alter player development is to change the player development staff. AK is not going and developing players himself.

So if you hate this firing, then it stands to reason that you think highly of our player development.

Was poor player development a big complaint this year? I wasn’t as active in the threads so it’s a real question.

I think about the positives of this season and it’s almost all player development. Giddey, Coby, Matas in particular. I still think Terry blows but he improved this year.

It never occurred to me to complain about it. Only clear failure was Pat and that’s on him now. Or an injury or both. But nothing to do with Patton either way.

[Indomitable]

Completely misplaced. I am willing to bet that no one was ever complaining about Peter Patton. AK? Sure. Billy Donovan? Sure. Not Peter Patton.
I would bet he was 0% on the radar for someone to be fired. So, I strongly disagree with that.

I didn't say people blamed Peter Patton.

I said people complained about player development all year. Peter Patton is in fact the head of player development. If people blamed player development on AK, AK's ability to alter player development is to change the player development staff. AK is not going and developing players himself.

So if you hate this firing, then it stands to reason that you think highly of our player development.

Was poor player development a big complaint this year? I wasn’t as active in the threads so it’s a real question.

I think about the positives of this season and it’s almost all player development. Giddey, Coby, Matas in particular. I still think Terry blows but he improved this year.

It never occurred to me to complain about it. Only clear failure was Pat and that’s on him now. Or an injury or both. But nothing to do with Patton either way.

Most People trashed Pat.

People started off being negative about Terry and Phillips. Over season the fans became more positive.

Most of the threads were about trashing the vets and hating Pat.

People are sick of the mediocre nonsense. Patton according to the players and Stacey was good for them. No one else really received positive statements. Which is why I find this suspicious.

[dougthonus]

Was poor player development a big complaint this year? I wasn’t as active in the threads so it’s a real question.

I think about the positives of this season and it’s almost all player development. Giddey, Coby, Matas in particular. I still think Terry blows but he improved this year.

It never occurred to me to complain about it. Only clear failure was Pat and that’s on him now. Or an injury or both. But nothing to do with Patton either way.

Patton's been here two years, over that period of time, the only player I would say that has potentially had above expected player development is Coby White, and you could make the case that his primary development is simply Zach LaVine being gone as in each of the past two seasons he basically played poorly while Zach was here and great when Zach was gone and he got to play primarily in Zach's role.

Giddey, Philips, Ayo, Terry, Pat, and Jalen Smith have all been somewhere along the expected path or below the expected path, and I'm a guy whom more or less pins all the improvement or lack there of on the players, so I'm not blaming Patton for all of this, I just don't view it as a big deal one way or the other.

Nothing about our player development seems unusually positive or unusually negative. If he was fired due to speaking up against AK, that might be a problem or it might not be. I manage a staff of 50, and have done a ton of leadership stuff. There is a fine line between sharing opposing opinions for the sake of improving everyone and not trying to all row in the same direction, and so ignoring whether Cowley's quote is really legit without knowing whom it came from or the context, I'm also not in the room to know where that type of stuff stood and would just say there is a lot of nuance in those personal relationships, so I'm simply not overly judgy.

It's easy to just throw AK under the bus, because I think he's really awful, and this absolutely might be really awful too. Just for me, I don't think there is enough information to really feel strongly about this individual situation and would only be thinking its bad based on AK's reputation. If AK had a good reputation, you'd be like "heck yes, improve the staff, don't settle for average". I don't blame anyone for assuming he screwed this up too, but I try to keep my priors in check when looking at any individual situation (not saying I'm always successful there).

[Ice Man]

The truths are -

1) We don't know if Patton was doing a particularly good job, or what happened behind the scenes with him and AK.
2) If the Bulls had thrived under AK and were title contenders, nobody would be taking Patton's side in this dispute. We would all love AK and defend him against any and all criticism.
3) However, since the Bulls are not doing well under AK, Patton is a board hero.

[_txchilibowl_]

Also, "shooting from the hip" and "speaking his mind freely" could be interpreted as insubordination depending on the level of it. I could easily see it being reason for termination. What boss wants his employees undermining his vision?

We just don't know enough.

[DuckIII]

Was poor player development a big complaint this year? I wasn’t as active in the threads so it’s a real question.

I think about the positives of this season and it’s almost all player development. Giddey, Coby, Matas in particular. I still think Terry blows but he improved this year.

It never occurred to me to complain about it. Only clear failure was Pat and that’s on him now. Or an injury or both. But nothing to do with Patton either way.

Patton's been here two years, over that period of time, the only player I would say that has potentially had above expected player development is Coby White, and you could make the case that his primary development is simply Zach LaVine being gone as in each of the past two seasons he basically played poorly while Zach was here and great when Zach was gone and he got to play primarily in Zach's role.

Giddey, Philips, Ayo, Terry, Pat, and Jalen Smith have all been somewhere along the expected path or below the expected path, and I'm a guy whom more or less pins all the improvement or lack there of on the players, so I'm not blaming Patton for all of this, I just don't view it as a big deal one way or the other.

Nothing about our player development seems unusually positive or unusually negative. If he was fired due to speaking up against AK, that might be a problem or it might not be. I manage a staff of 50, and have done a ton of leadership stuff. There is a fine line between sharing opposing opinions for the sake of improving everyone and not trying to all row in the same direction, and so ignoring whether Cowley's quote is really legit without knowing whom it came from or the context, I'm also not in the room to know where that type of stuff stood and would just say there is a lot of nuance in those personal relationships, so I'm simply not overly judgy.

It's easy to just throw AK under the bus, because I think he's really awful, and this absolutely might be really awful too. Just for me, I don't think there is enough information to really feel strongly about this individual situation and would only be thinking its bad based on AK's reputation. If AK had a good reputation, you'd be like "heck yes, improve the staff, don't settle for average". I don't blame anyone for assuming he screwed this up too, but I try to keep my priors in check when looking at any individual situation (not saying I'm always successful there).

You said fans were all upset about player development this year. Were they?

And I just don’t track your logic on the rest of it anyway. Giddey came in and looked very questionable and ended up having the best season of his career by mile with improvements in the very areas he had been criticized for. Coby had an all-NBA run for basically two months and did it by playing differently, not just by getting hot. And Matas’ improvements were outstanding including in shooting which is why he slid in the draft. The importance of the Matas part cannot be overstated.

These are the only important and positive things that happened on the court this year. Patton was in charge of that. He got immediately fired.

Based on what we can know, this should be the type of thing fans question as highly illogical and counterproductive under the circumstances. AK being an incompetent douche makes it worse, but only in the way getting an extra serving of liver is worse. You’re still eating liver.

[ChettheJet]

For all the condemnation of the organization for letting go a guy who was behind the scenes and most of you couldn't pick out of a lineup in a police station, quit acting like you're that in the know.

nobody here has a clue what his relationship with the organization was, what kinds of demands he might have made, maybe he wanted a big raise, to travel with the team, maybe he wanted the team to hire is wife or brother, maybe he asked for them them to help start his own business to coach other players.

There's no one person who works behind the scenes who makes or breaks an organization. Yeah all the players loved him who is to say they don't bring in another guy who makes them forget Patton in a year.

[TheSuzerain]

https://mendoza.nd.edu/analytics/steve-weinman-bulls/

This **** cracks me up - Steve Weinman was a journalism major and took an internship with the Bulls and somehow landed the head of the analytics role for a major sports team and his most data adjacent fact was that his parents are math teachers.

Yeah I have no idea on Patton but the Weinman thing was like 5 years over due.

We just aren't a serious organization.

[Jcool0]

For all the condemnation of the organization for letting go a guy who was behind the scenes and most of you couldn't pick out of a lineup in a police station, quit acting like you're that in the know.

nobody here has a clue what his relationship with the organization was, what kinds of demands he might have made, maybe he wanted a big raise, to travel with the team, maybe he wanted the team to hire is wife or brother, maybe he asked for them them to help start his own business to coach other players.

There's no one person who works behind the scenes who makes or breaks an organization. Yeah all the players loved him who is to say they don't bring in another guy who makes them forget Patton in a year.

So if I'm reading this right. You assert we have no idea who this guy is or what he does & a million people could do this job. Despite the fact I'd say 75% of this board knows who he is and what is contribution was. So if we are going with the premise we don't know how good he is because he's behind the scenes. Then how is it okay for you to dismiss the firing since you have no idea his contribution? It can't be both we know nothing and it's no big deal.

[Chi town]

:rofl:

You know everyone just hates these guys when people get up and arms about them being let go. If people loved AK, they'd be like "hell yeah, we're not settling for these guys, we're looking to improve!". I have no way to judge Patton or Weiman, and probably no one else does here either.

Weinman has been with the Bulls forever, and the Bulls have been absolutely backwards on analytics for almost all of that time. Maybe no one listened to Weinman, maybe Weinman is bad at his job, no way to know, but no one should be praising the Bulls analytics department under him.

Joe's got an anonymous player quote that could be from Talen Horten Tucker or some other nobody for all we know, and the assistant / development coaches are almost always among the most popular, so no surprise Patton was liked. Maybe Patton was great, maybe not. Ayo/Pat cratered with their shooting this year. Giddey/Terry saw some improvements. Coby was about the same. How much impact did Patton have and on who? No way to know.

AK's gotten to the billboard point where it really doesn't matter what he does, everyone will assume the worst.

FWIW, I also think AK sucks, and he may suck for this, I just have a hard time getting too up in arms for these types of moves where you really have nothing to go on.

This is an overstatement. We have more than an anonymous player quote. I’ve heard a number of these guys crediting Patton throughout the year.

At the absolute bear minimum it is a poor look and really the burden falls on AK/Org to provide a good explanation.

AK will say nothing in the shadows as always. No balls let alone backbone.

When Giddey hit the game winner and held the follow through Patton was the only coach to run the court and celebrate with Giddey.

A good bet from the progression of Giddey’s childhood heave 3 pointer to his legit shot with an actual follow through that Payton had been working on that with him.

Wouldn’t be surprised if Giddey is the quoted.

[MikeDC]

Bayes' theorem is a mathematical formula used to calculate conditional probabilities, which helps determine the likelihood of an event based on prior knowledge of related events. It allows for updating predictions or theories when new evidence is available.

Existing information:
1. Peter Patton has been widely lauded as being good at what he does, both previously and with the Bulls.
2. In particular, Bulls players seemed to go out of their way to talk up Patton.
3. Arturas K has been widely ridiculed for making bad decision after bad decision. Occasionally he makes a good one, but he's made a lot of demonstrably awful one.
4. In that sense, he fits in with the standards (low) and corporate culture (parochial and toadyish) the Reinsdorfs have set, which is similarly bad. And which often seems to prioritize agreement over competence.

New information:
1. AK holds a press conference where he talks about how everyone is on the same page, then the Bulls release just after the presser that Patton is being let go.
2. Reports are that Bulls players are angry about his dismissal.

Application:

Maybe AK pulled a rabbit out of his hat by getting rid of a guy who sucked but who'd somehow succeeded in getting the people who he worked with to see him as a valuable contributor to success.

But more likely, AK, this fits within the AK and Bulls pattern of bad moves. There's plenty of evidence already that they're incompetent, so my starting point was already pretty high... like 99% that they're bad. So maybe this only increases my confidence to like 99.1%, but it still increases it.

Does it change my confidence in Peter Patton's ability as a coach? Well, not really, because I don't place much value on AK's judgement. And it's kind of irrelevant because he's been fired. Even if he were only middling and none of it matters, it doesn't seem like it'd be worth it to anger players by firing a popular coach. There's no obvious "upside" to this move, and obvious downside. From the perspective of winning.

From AK's perspective, the downside is personal. Condident, competent leaders can generally handle reasonable dissent. Any dissent is lethal to the incompetent and stupid though, because they have no answer for it.