Butler calls out Hoiberg / Update pg 33: KC releases negative report on Jimmy

[R3AL1TY]

To come to think of it, Fred has did things indicating him being hard on players. He benched Niko and Brooks at times, and he even benched Rose for bad play. He even began giving Doug more minutes over Snell after Snell went into the abyss. Butler just needs to talk things out with the coach since he himself may be overlooking things.

[Chi town]

It’s kind of annoying seeing people getting on Fred for being a soft players coach when there are a lot of players coaches in this league that have been and currently are exactly that.

At what point do we stop blaming the coaches, or even the front office, and start actually looking at the players as the root cause here?

Fred has his flaws. Management haven’t built a perfect roster, but that shouldn’t excuse the players that are here from not giving a crap consistently. That’s on them. To me, it’s that simple.

Rose is the number one culprit. Gasols PnR D is second. Jimmys ball stopping offense and I'm the leader listen to me drama queen expressions are third.

Our 3 "best" players are the problem. Reset w Jimmy Dougie and Portis. Sign Barnes. Trade for a PG and let's play Bulls basketball.

[Stratmaster]

Butler's comments are great. Detrimental is Rose saying I take games off, its about life after basketball, I'm looking at 2017 free agency.

Butler is talking about Rose, Snell, and Mirotic but can't come out and and say his teammates names so he goes at the coach who needs to yell at these dudes that aren't playing hard every night. Rose is playing like the worst star in the league, Snell is playing like he shouldn't be in the NBA, and Mirotic is looking like a scrub compared to by Bobby Portis. No one is saying anything when Butler has to go out every night play defense, play the most minutes, be our best player, etc and y'all want him to not say a thing because its all about Derrick Rose taking his time recovering and bring up trade proposals for Butler are hardest working player on the team but keeo the slacker Derrick Rose.

If Rose Snell and Mirotic do t turn it around by January Bulls need to trade them for guys that

Hoiberg has benched Niko, Boganized Snell, and said repeatedly he has almost daily discussions with Rose about pushing the ball up the court.

So what exactly would you like? PLEASE someone explain what it is Hoiberg should be doing? Supposedly, Snell and Niko were traumatized by Thibs screaming at them and pulling them from games after every mistake. A majority of the board held that opinion. But now Jimmy has decided Fred needs to scream at them like they are children and yank them quicker?

Maybe Jimmy should let the coach do the coaching, and he should play basketball?

[Jcool0]

[tweet]https://twitter.com/KCJHoop/status/678710859963723776[/tweet]

[Dajody10]

[tweet]https://twitter.com/KCJHoop/status/678710859963723776[/tweet]

Typical Bulls, back to status quo we go - 'We like our team, we love our core' is back in full force.

[R3AL1TY]

[tweet]https://twitter.com/KCJHoop/status/678710859963723776[/tweet]

That's a good look. Hopefully, both sides were completely honest and they came to an agreement.

[Chi town]

Jimmy Butler wasn't lost by Fred. His head just grew bigger and bigger... and he doesn't like Fred's offense. The one everyone else in the world was clamoring for but Jimmy doesn't want to play.

He has benched Niko, and consistently been decreasing his playing time.
He has attempted to limit Brooks playing time.
I expect he would bench Snell if he thought he had a better option.
Are you suggesting he should bench Rose? Or who else are you wanting demoted?

You mention Pau. You were one of the most vocal Thibs detractors last season because he "kept forcing the ball to Pau in the post". Now you are criticizing Fred because he doesn't keep forcing the ball into Pau in the post?

This. The only thing Jimmy has grown is a bigger mouth.

Kirk has gone back to no impact playing hurt Kirk. You can't bench Rose because Brooks is so bad.

We need to reset. We will get better and go on a run but it won't be enough to get past CLE. You have to move a big to make room for Portis. I'd trade Taj or Pau and start Portis. Noah is better off the bench w Dougie.

I think you gave a better answer than me.

I said things I would like to see Fred change about this team this year.

But bigger picture, you are right on, its time to move on with this cast, and failure to appreciate that it doens't have the balance or talent the FO thinks is does, is likely at the root of these problems with Jimmy.

He falsely bought into that they should be a title worthy team, like most all players in the NBA like to think they have a chance, but his job is just to play, the FO job is to realize when its not working and cut bait.

Then Jimmy will see the reality and won't be bitching because he will realize this run is over.

Exactly. Shut up and play. Jimmy is playing for next season and summer FA recruiting. Dougie love recruit Barnes. Jimmy can recruit Noah to resign for cheap.

Jimmy needs to get close to Dougie and Portis be uses that's his future.

[Chi town]

Butler's comments are great. Detrimental is Rose saying I take games off, its about life after basketball, I'm looking at 2017 free agency.

Butler is talking about Rose, Snell, and Mirotic but can't come out and and say his teammates names so he goes at the coach who needs to yell at these dudes that aren't playing hard every night. Rose is playing like the worst star in the league, Snell is playing like he shouldn't be in the NBA, and Mirotic is looking like a scrub compared to by Bobby Portis. No one is saying anything when Butler has to go out every night play defense, play the most minutes, be our best player, etc and y'all want him to not say a thing because its all about Derrick Rose taking his time recovering and bring up trade proposals for Butler are hardest working player on the team but keeo the slacker Derrick Rose.

If Rose Snell and Mirotic do t turn it around by January Bulls need to trade them for guys that

Hoiberg has benched Niko, Boganized Snell, and said repeatedly he has almost daily discussions with Rose about pushing the ball up the court.

So what exactly would you like? PLEASE someone explain what it is Hoiberg should be doing? Supposedly, Snell and Niko were traumatized by Thibs screaming at them and pulling them from games after every mistake. A majority of the board held that opinion. But now Jimmy has decided Fred needs to scream at them like they are children and yank them quicker?

Maybe Jimmy should let the coach do the coaching, and he should play basketball?

Drop mic now. Well said.

[Chi town]

[tweet]https://twitter.com/KCJHoop/status/678710859963723776[/tweet]

That's a good look. Hopefully, both sides were completely honest and they came to an agreement.

I'm sure Fred is embarrassed for Jimmy. He has played a lot more games, been an excuse and know that Jimmy made a rookie mistake here.

[Stratmaster]

I recall you complaining about going inside to Pau all through last season.

No really, the issue got fixed pretty early on. About 3 weeks after the big thread I made about it.

Now you might be remembering that I still complained that Gasol was overrated in the post at this stage of his career, when he would make individual bad plays in there, or be unable to score on quality bigs, but those weren't shots at Thibs at that point. Obviously the guy has to get the ball sometime in there, I only had it as an actual coach issue the first month or so. Then Thibs wised up.

OK. The suggestion you made was to have Pau play around the 3-point line more to open lanes for Rose and Butler. I personally believe that is a bad idea. Trying to turn Pau into a longer range shooter when he is deadly from mid-range isn't going to make him more efficient, only less so. Rose can get to the rim at will already. He just has to start finishing better. Jimmy excels in the traffic. It is what gets him to the free throw line.

Is that your only idea for using Pau more efficiently? Not in any way saying I am right and you are wrong. Just asking if that is your criticism of Hoiberg's use of Pau or if there is something else?

[kingkirk]

*Raises Hand*

Many of us were blaming the players last year, while the other half would have none of it, convinced Thibs was a screw up, just not progressing the rooks, controlling Rose, and all the parts were in place for legit contention.

But end of the day, the FO put together this collection of players.

All those players everyone is finally realizing aren't that great, that quit on the last coach, are the same ones the FO brought back 1 through 12. They obviously didn't understand it was the players.

Why is it, when something turns out good, its the FO credit for drafting them, signing them, etc, but when things start to go down the pooper, the FO names are nowhere to be found and just the players and coaches are malcontents out of nowhere.

This organization didn't get along with Ben Wallace, didn't get along with Rose post injuries, and now isn't getting along with Butler. I thought Wallace was just a bum, but seems a worrying trend when you can't get on the same page with your best players.

Tom Thibodeau had his faults. Fred Hoiberg having issues now doesn’t absolve Thibodeau.

The front office have built a flawed roster that has gaps, but there are many teams in this league that aren’t perfect and actually turn up to play every night and don’t need to be told to play hard.

This isn’t on the coaches of executives. Sure, those guys have contact with the players, but no player should need to be told to play hard.

It’s a cop out to be blaming the front office on this one.

What does Gar Forman have to do with Derrick Rose giving inconsistent efforts?

That’s on Rose, not Forman or Hoiberg.

[Stratmaster]

[tweet]https://twitter.com/KCJHoop/status/678710859963723776[/tweet]

I hope very much that Hoiberg listened to Jimmy, thanked him for his input and told him he would take it into consideration...and that if Butler ever made comments like that again Fred will take them to heart and in the spirit of coaching harder suspend Butler for 5 games.

[TheGOATRises007]

Well hopefully that talk had Fred stand his ground and told Butler to keep things private.

[Stratmaster]

Glad we could all talk this out, just like Fred and Jimmy.

[Rerisen]

OK. The suggestion you made was to have Pau play around the 3-point line more to open lanes for Rose and Butler. I personally believe that is a bad idea. Trying to turn Pau into a longer range shooter when he is deadly from mid-range isn't going to make him more efficient, only less so. Rose can get to the rim at will already. He just has to start finishing better. Jimmy excels in the traffic. It is what gets him to the free throw line.

Is that your only idea for using Pau more efficiently? Not in any way saying I am right and you are wrong. Just asking if that is your criticism of Hoiberg's use of Pau or if there is something else?

I just gave a post earlier how we are not getting much on PnR. Gasol has not been deadly on his Pick and Pop this year and Rose just tries to throw up some shot, its not good team offense.

Gasol is shooting just 38% from 10-16 this year, that is not 'deadly', do you realize how low he'd have to shoot from 3s to match that efficiency? Just 26% on threes would be better efficiency!

I also said to get him more touches early in the game, we were doing it for a while then went away from it. As that seems to latch his head into the game a bit more, both offensively and defensively, helping to give him a feel for the later outside shots he will be taking.

In general his volume should probably just come down a few shots. But the ball ends up there with him on the perimeter because the offense is so broken then he tries a long jumper or some kind of drive move that usually doesn't work.

It's not so much about adding better things with Pau, there really isn't that many better things to add, more about taking away the bad.

[Dajody10]

:meditate: Glad we could all talk this out, just like Fred and Jimmy.

Typical Bulls, sweep everything under the rug, keep the status quo, and love our core. Gotta love these Bulls!!

[Stratmaster]

:meditate: Glad we could all talk this out, just like Fred and Jimmy.

Typical Bulls, sweep everything under the rug, keep the status quo, and love our core. Gotta love these Bulls!!

Duplicate post?

[Rerisen]

The front office have built a flawed roster that has gaps, but there are many teams in this league that aren’t perfect and actually turn up to play every night and don’t need to be told to play hard.

This isn’t on the coaches of executives. Sure, those guys have contact with the players, but no player should need to be told to play hard.

It’s a cop out to be blaming the front office on this one.

What does Gar Forman have to do with Derrick Rose giving inconsistent efforts?

That’s on Rose, not Forman or Hoiberg.

Except its not just Rose. The whole team has given up and down crap effort for 2 years.

At some point it IS on the FO to do something about it. Last year they did nothing, but dumped it on the coach and gave everyone a free pass to come back and be even more lazy with a nicer, substitute teacher type coach not getting on them about it.

If the coach can't get through to them in playing hard each night, then you start making personnel changes.

They are long overdo.

Though I think the 'not playing hard' stuff is somewhat an overrated cover for roster limitations that should be the real impetus to changes.

Not sure how much slacking a team with a #2 defense can be doing.

[Stratmaster]

OK. The suggestion you made was to have Pau play around the 3-point line more to open lanes for Rose and Butler. I personally believe that is a bad idea. Trying to turn Pau into a longer range shooter when he is deadly from mid-range isn't going to make him more efficient, only less so. Rose can get to the rim at will already. He just has to start finishing better. Jimmy excels in the traffic. It is what gets him to the free throw line.

Is that your only idea for using Pau more efficiently? Not in any way saying I am right and you are wrong. Just asking if that is your criticism of Hoiberg's use of Pau or if there is something else?

I just gave a post earlier how we are not getting much on PnR. Gasol has not been deadly on his Pick and Pop this year and Rose just tries to throw up some shot, its not good team offense.

Gasol is shooting just 38% from 10-16 this year, that is not 'deadly', do you realize how low he'd have to shoot from 3s to match that efficiency? Just 26% on threes would be better efficiency!

I also said to get him more touches early in the game, we were doing it for a while then went away from it. As that seems to latch his head into the game a bit more, both offensively and defensively, helping to give him a feel for the later outside shots he will be taking.

In general his volume should probably just come down a few shots. But the ball ends up there with him on the perimeter because the offense is so broken then he tries a long jumper or some kind of drive move that usually doesn't work.

It's not so much about adding better things with Pau, there really isn't that many better things to add, more about taking away the bad.

He is shooting 41.3% from 16+ - <3point. the 26% he shoots from 3 isn't better efficiency that that. Also, 10-16' is a really bad measure for Pau's "deadly" set shot. His sweet spot is in the 14-18' range and many of the 10'-13' shots are the worst possible ones for him. Not using his size at the rim and not using his range...generally highly contested shots.

[Rerisen]

He is shooting 41.3% from 16+ - <3point. the 26% he shoots from 3 isn't better efficiency that that.

Right, well to beat the 41% longer mid-range, he'd still only need 28% from three to produce more points.

Not saying never shoot the mid-range, but I think its rather bottom barrel looks its producing for the team. Maybe Thibs used it more sparingly for a good reason.

Do you ever see us hit Doug or Snell for a wide open 3 off it, I don't hardly ever. Or hit Butler on the move to the rim? Not that either. And those are our most efficient scorers. Rose and Pau are our worst!

Maybe that is what Jimmy is on about. Not that he wants more isos, but he wants to not have to do isos to get looks, but wants an offense that integrates him more as part of it.

Maybe he wants to run PnR himself more. Or more post ups, or more plays where he's a primary cutter option.

The guy seems to have a lot of scoring talent when he exerts himself, surely there are ways to use that more team oriented.

Though a lot of his complaints actually come off as more effort stuff, defensive rotations, rebounding and the hustle type stuff.