Bulls Might Now Be More Likely To Trade Luol Deng

[StephenAA]

He's not better than Iggy (17.2 PER, .656 TS%), and Iggy's contract would be ideal for us to offer Lu.

12.8 / 12.2 / 11.7 / 11.1

I disagree. It is debatable who is better in terms of Iguodala or Deng but it can go either way quite easily.

Iguodala has the luxury of playing as a 4th option and is only putting in 12.9 points per. Yes, his TS right now is amazing but he won't maintain that.

Deng also has a higher PER on the season and has been forced away from being his natural 3rd option into being a 1st on the last 2 seasons.

Iggy got 4 yrs / 48 million. 12 million annually will be Deng's market value, and rightfully so.

You said you disagreed, then just agreed!

I didn't say Iggy was better, just Deng wasn't either. Same level.

Re, by quoting Iggy's stats, you were clearly implying "Iggy is better". Your posting with vague semantics... If you think they are equal players, then you should have said it.

I agree with KC, Deng is the 5th best SF in the league right now.

AA

[DJhitek]

I mean, I like the fact we have this kid Mirotic but to call him an upgrade over Boozer is kinda nuts isn't it? He hasn't played a single NBA minute yet.

So, just to be clear, if you had to bet on how could help the Bulls win more next year between Mirotic and Boozer, you'd say Boozer right?

IMO, it could easily be either player, but if I had to choose, and the Bulls probably will have to choose, I'd take Mirotic. And I think the Bulls likely are going to also.

As we discuss it in the present? Boozer and it's not close to me.

Not a knock on Mirotic, but we won't know what we have with him until at least mid-season IMO. Whichever season that is because I'm not all that convinced that he comes over next season.

[Rerisen]

Re, by quoting Iggy's stats, you were clearly implying "Iggy is better". Your posting with vague semantics... If you think they are equal players, then you should have said it.

Deng has a higher PER, worse TS%, so showing Iggy's stats was simply to show they are comparable. And they have been very comparable for years now.

People can say Deng is 5th based on very slim subjective differences, but its a rather deceptive statement, that does not show much relative to value or impact, because after the top 4, there are a handful of SFs that are all in the same tier, that could be argued for.

[StephenAA]

Bulls can pay Deng like 14-16 mil next year, while resigning Kirk to like 2 million, a BAE player for like 2 million, Mirotic at 5 million on the MLE, our number one pick plus the Charlotte pick, and have this team:

PG: Rose, Kirk, Teague
SG: Butler, Snell, #1 pick
SF: Deng, MDJ
PF: Mirotic, Taj
C: Noah, BAE, #1 pick

and completely avoid the luxury tax!!!

Think about that. Upgrade from Boozer to Mirotic, add two mid first round picks in a great draft, and add a BAE player to upgrade from Nazr, and not pay any tax. That would be so sweet. It would allow us to do something like max decreases to Deng's deal so it is more tradeable and manageable year by year.

I did not know that! Thanks for pointing this out... I like what I see! This plan has either Amnestying Boozer or trading him in a salary dump.

However, here's the issue:
Are we really using Butler / Snell to their max potential in this scenario ?? It seems like Deng is eventually going to get in the way of their development, because both are showing lots of promise!! How do you reconcile that by going with this plan ??

AA

[Rerisen]

^ Do people feel Tony Snell is ready to be a starter on a championship team after 3 decent games?!?

A wing rotation of Deng/Butler/Snell has plenty of minutes for all of them, and actually allows Thibs to stop killing Butler and Deng minutes wise.

[Eduardo]

^ Do people feel Tony Snell is ready to be a starter on a championship team after 3 decent games?!?

A wing rotation of Deng/Butler/Snell has plenty of minutes for all of them, and actually allows Thibs to stop killing Butler and Deng minutes wise.

Not yet, but i believe he will be a great fit next to Rose.

[League Circles]

I did not know that! Thanks for pointing this out... I like what I see! This plan has either Amnestying Boozer or trading him in a salary dump.

However, here's the issue:
Are we really using Butler / Snell to their max potential in this scenario ?? It seems like Deng is eventually going to get in the way of their development, because both are showing lots of promise!! How do you reconcile that by going with this plan ??

AA

Rerisen basically covered it. If Snell continues his good play, MDJ would ideally be forced out of the rotation. But if not, MDJ is nice insurance to have. Also, with one of the number one picks, it would be nice to draft a combo guard that can compete to back up Rose and get minutes at the SG spot if the player excels.

You really only have minutes problems when entitled proven vets aren't getting any minutes. As long as Noah, Deng and Rose are at 30 mpg or more, the rest of the competitions would be nice "problems" to have. I've never subscribed to the notion that you can be "wasting" players by not playing them enough. If you're not playing them all the time, that should mean that a better player is in instead! I don't feel like Butler needs any more development time as he's not really terribly young or inexperienced anymore. Snell isn't an elite enough talent to warrant entitlement development minutes.

If all the young guys excel, we'd have plenty of minutes for them:

PG: Rose 32, #1 pick 16
SG: Snell 32, Butler 16
SF: Deng 32, Butler 16
PF: Mirotic 32, Taj 16
C: Noah 32, #1 pick 12, Taj 4

That would mean Kirk, Dunleavy, and a BAE player forced out of the rotation. That would be awesome - cause those guys don't suck. So if they're not playing that means the good young players in the above rotation are.

[Rerisen]

It would be great to get offense at PG and Center with the draft picks, if we do end up with 2.

[StephenAA]

Rerisen I agree they're on the same level. I'd take Deng over Iggy on the Bulls because he's younger, I think a little less reliant on athleticism which should decrease a bit for both of them, and because he's a long time Bull. There are plenty of teams I'd prefer Iggy on.

I personally don't really care what we pay Deng - it's more a binary thing than a scalar thing. I don't think paying him say 14 million next year vs 12 is going to change the team we put on the floor.

I agree with the first part, but it is not a binary thing to me - it may effect his trade value down the road.

I would be fine signing Deng to an Iggy-type deal:
12.8
12.2
11.7
11.1

AA

[StephenAA]

I did not know that! Thanks for pointing this out... I like what I see! This plan has either Amnestying Boozer or trading him in a salary dump.

However, here's the issue:
Are we really using Butler / Snell to their max potential in this scenario ?? It seems like Deng is eventually going to get in the way of their development, because both are showing lots of promise!! How do you reconcile that by going with this plan ??

AA

Rerisen basically covered it. If Snell continues his good play, MDJ would ideally be forced out of the rotation. But if not, MDJ is nice insurance to have. Also, with one of the number one picks, it would be nice to draft a combo guard that can compete to back up Rose and get minutes at the SG spot if the player excels.

You really only have minutes problems when entitled proven vets aren't getting any minutes. As long as Noah, Deng and Rose are at 30 mpg or more, the rest of the competitions would be nice "problems" to have. I've never subscribed to the notion that you can be "wasting" players by not playing them enough. If you're not playing them all the time, that should mean that a better player is in instead! I don't feel like Butler needs any more development time as he's not really terribly young or inexperienced anymore. Snell isn't an elite enough talent to warrant entitlement development minutes.

If all the young guys excel, we'd have plenty of minutes for them:

PG: Rose 32, #1 pick 16
SG: Snell 32, Butler 16
SF: Deng 32, Butler 16
PF: Mirotic 32, Taj 16
C: Noah 32, #1 pick 12, Taj 4

That would mean Kirk, Dunleavy, and a BAE player forced out of the rotation. That would be awesome - cause those guys don't suck. So if they're not playing that means the good young players in the above rotation are.

In the end, I still like it. In fact, now that you have pointed this out (the no luxury tax being huge!), I am gonna rescind my approval of a Deng / Waiters trade!

However, this idea of trading Deng may come down to what the Bulls think of Noah and his future with the team!! Oh how I would love for Houston to bite on a Boozer / filler for Asik / filler trade!! But with that, you'd then have to trade Deng for expirings / pick (or let him go for nothing at the end of the season) to stay out of the Luxury Tax, correct ??

And IF you have Asik, who do you trade Noah for / with (package), while still staying out of the Luxury Tax next year ??

AA

[RSP83]

I did not know that! Thanks for pointing this out... I like what I see! This plan has either Amnestying Boozer or trading him in a salary dump.

However, here's the issue:
Are we really using Butler / Snell to their max potential in this scenario ?? It seems like Deng is eventually going to get in the way of their development, because both are showing lots of promise!! How do you reconcile that by going with this plan ??

AA

Rerisen basically covered it. If Snell continues his good play, MDJ would ideally be forced out of the rotation. But if not, MDJ is nice insurance to have. Also, with one of the number one picks, it would be nice to draft a combo guard that can compete to back up Rose and get minutes at the SG spot if the player excels.

You really only have minutes problems when entitled proven vets aren't getting any minutes. As long as Noah, Deng and Rose are at 30 mpg or more, the rest of the competitions would be nice "problems" to have. I've never subscribed to the notion that you can be "wasting" players by not playing them enough. If you're not playing them all the time, that should mean that a better player is in instead! I don't feel like Butler needs any more development time as he's not really terribly young or inexperienced anymore. Snell isn't an elite enough talent to warrant entitlement development minutes.

If all the young guys excel, we'd have plenty of minutes for them:

PG: Rose 32, #1 pick 16
SG: Snell 32, Butler 16
SF: Deng 32, Butler 16
PF: Mirotic 32, Taj 16
C: Noah 32, #1 pick 12, Taj 4

That would mean Kirk, Dunleavy, and a BAE player forced out of the rotation. That would be awesome - cause those guys don't suck. So if they're not playing that means the good young players in the above rotation are.

What's the total salary look like with that make up? Assuming Butler and Snell continues to develop as the season progress, that's a scary deep team; especially if Deng is retained. I understand Deng as a glue guy can make our team look really good on paper when Rose returns. But, I'm more inclined toward trading Deng and doing a mini rebuilding with younger talent without Deng.

PG: Rose
SG: Snell
SF: Butler
PF: Mirotic
C: Noah
Bench: Gibson (Backup PF), MDJ (Backup SF), Young talent obtained from Deng trade, Bobcats late lottery pick, Bulls mid first round pick.

Without Deng we'll have lesser contract commitment (only Rose, Noah, Gibson committed long term); which provide us with good exit strategy if we have to blow it up. The drop off from Deng to Butler as starting 3 will be manageable IMO. People have been saying that Deng is an elite rebound for his position, but Butler is a pretty underrated rebounder himself. Defensively nobody will ever be able to stop or shut down Lebron, Butler will play as good team defense as Deng and more than hold his own defending other 3 one-on-one.

[samwana]

Bulls can pay Deng like 14-16 mil next year, while resigning Kirk to like 2 million, a BAE player for like 2 million, Mirotic at 5 million on the MLE, our number one pick plus the Charlotte pick, and have this team:

PG: Rose, Kirk, Teague
SG: Butler, Snell, #1 pick
SF: Deng, MDJ
PF: Mirotic, Taj
C: Noah, BAE, #1 pick

and completely avoid the luxury tax!!!

Think about that. Upgrade from Boozer to Mirotic, add two mid first round picks in a great draft, and add a BAE player to upgrade from Nazr, and not pay any tax. That would be so sweet. It would allow us to do something like max decreases to Deng's deal so it is more tradeable and manageable year by year.

I think 14-16m is a bit over the top, but if he signs for around 11-12m that would be perfect. Iggy type of money, absolutely perfect. I really don't see 14m and up, and I don't see any team spending that much. Look at the type of deals from this summer, Iggy got 12m, Josh Smith got 13.5m, David West got 12m and I think he is in that range. 16m is definitely too much.

Mirotic if he comes over has to adjust to the NBA at first, so I don't think he will be an upgrade from Boozer right from the start, but if you start Taj instead of Boozer I don't think there is any dropoff in play. Taj really impresses me this season, he added a few good moves around the basket this summer and got a lot stronger. His jumper also improved. He is much better and though Boozer had a great start, Taj is showing a lot with a bigger role the last few games. It seems like what he worked on this summer is slowly showing in real games.

[Ice Man]

While I don't completely agree, that statement holds more water to me. Taj needs to prove himself as a starting caliber player but I think he does have that talent and skillset.

Taj been in the league several years now and has had a PER of about 15, give or take a point, every year. He plays half a game already, only 6 minutes fewer than Boozer. If he starts and plays 6 more minutes, he'll be the same guy.

If your argument is that Boozer/Taj is substantially worse than Taj/Mirotic, OK that's an argument although I disagree. But I don't see how Taj needs to prove anything. He is the player he is, and always will be, until he gets old and slow.

[jmajew]

What is a good return for Deng? I'm thinking something like an expiring and a 2013 1st rd pick. Example: Marion and Shane Larkin. Deng will be a great fit for a team that wants to contend now and possibly still have cap space for this summer.

[Dioxide]

I was just looking on espn at the stats page out of curiousity and Deng is in the top 10 at his position for Points, Rebounds, AND Assists. Wish he would play this good always and not just when he wants a good contract ><

[drosestruts]

Bulls can pay Deng like 14-16 mil next year, while resigning Kirk to like 2 million, a BAE player for like 2 million, Mirotic at 5 million on the MLE, our number one pick plus the Charlotte pick, and have this team:

PG: Rose, Kirk, Teague
SG: Butler, Snell, #1 pick
SF: Deng, MDJ
PF: Mirotic, Taj
C: Noah, BAE, #1 pick

and completely avoid the luxury tax!!!

Think about that. Upgrade from Boozer to Mirotic, add two mid first round picks in a great draft, and add a BAE player to upgrade from Nazr, and not pay any tax. That would be so sweet. It would allow us to do something like max decreases to Deng's deal so it is more tradeable and manageable year by year.

I think 14-16m is a bit over the top, but if he signs for around 11-12m that would be perfect. Iggy type of money, absolutely perfect. I really don't see 14m and up, and I don't see any team spending that much. Look at the type of deals from this summer, Iggy got 12m, Josh Smith got 13.5m, David West got 12m and I think he is in that range. 16m is definitely too much.

Mirotic if he comes over has to adjust to the NBA at first, so I don't think he will be an upgrade from Boozer right from the start, but if you start Taj instead of Boozer I don't think there is any dropoff in play. Taj really impresses me this season, he added a few good moves around the basket this summer and got a lot stronger. His jumper also improved. He is much better and though Boozer had a great start, Taj is showing a lot with a bigger role the last few games. It seems like what he worked on this summer is slowly showing in real games.

He;s not advocating we pay Deng that much, he's just showing the board that Deng is indeed affordable and can be retained while avoiding the luxury tax. Many posters seem to equate re-signing Deng with massive luxury tax problems when that is not the case.

[Evil_Headband]

^^

Right. Assuming other moves aren't made, avoiding the luxury tax can just be a Deng vs. Boozer decision. There are pros and cons of both but I'd favor retaining Deng. He's a better player, and Taj and Mirotic can hold down the PF position fine.

[dice]

What is a good return for Deng? I'm thinking something like an expiring and a 2013 1st rd pick. Example: Marion and Shane Larkin

ideally an expiring and a 2014 first rounder. or even a 2015 expiring instead of a current expiring. to fill the void left by lu next season with a respectable player and prior to having to resign jimmy buckets in 2015

[Stratmaster]

I was just looking on espn at the stats page out of curiousity and Deng is in the top 10 at his position for Points, Rebounds, AND Assists. Wish he would play this good always and not just when he wants a good contract ><

"Wish he would play this good always and not just when he isn't playing one-handed."

Fixed.

[jmajew]

I'm really fascinated by the idea of keeping Deng with a descending deal. I believe we can decrease the contract by 7.5% per year under the new CBA. So basically if we sign Deng to a 4 year deal worth 50 mil he could start off at 14 mil annually and the last year get paid about 11 mil. Seems pretty reasonable. Obviously, the total value of the contract is debatable but that would be a great way to structure it.