OT: COVID-19 thread #4

[TheStig]

Seems like the problem has always been icu beds, if we had enough of those and the personnel to work them then i see no issue with covid in a post vaccine world. Nothing would need to be shut down and there would not need to be any restrictions.

If everyone got vaccinated, you wouldn't need to worry about ICU beds.

If there was no vaccination at all, and the risks were of those that are unvaccinated, then COVID would be the biggest killer in the world, well beyond things like cancer and heart disease (by a factor of 10), if there were no restrictions and it'd still be a massive problem.

Doug, turn off CNN please.

[TheStig]

I'll be honest that I was very close to taking the J and J. Then it got pulled. And at this point, I'm not mortified about the virus and with all the break through cases don't feel it to be a real solution. To me, these imperfect vaccines will end up making a much stronger virus. But my issue was with the MNRA portion.

Stig, if I had the time to copy scientific articles going back over a decade to the first MERS outbreak I would. But between working 50 hours a week and writing a book I literally have 10 minutes of spare time a day, if that. Perhaps if you're truly worried about an unproven gene therapy you can do your own D&D. A good resource is the website "Peak Prosperity" by Dr Chris Martenson. He has been at the forefront of prepping regarding this virus, and he warned of it a month before it ever hit our shores. There is a simple way to avoid getting a severe Covid infection IF YOU ARE NOT ELDERLY OR HAVE SIGNIFICANT CO-MORBID CONDITIONS. Take Quercetin, Zinc, Vitamin D, Vitamin C and Tumeric. If you get exposed you will in the vast majority of circumstances not come down with a severe case of Covid. Long term toxicology testing has not been done with these mRNA gene therapy injections. And the companies that make them were granted absolute immunity from lawsuits should they cause harm to anyone. The VAERS system has thousands of reports of side effects from the mRNA jabs. And human nature dictates that the VAERS reporting system only catches a portion of the actual cases of side effects. Some on the board want to make this a political thing. For me it is not. It isn't a left-right, Dem-Repub issue. I just get very suspicious when the government tries to push agendas with a "hard sell" like they've done with these injections. I don't trust them. Look at the conflicts that Fauci himself has. He helped to fund the Wuhan Lab indirectly through Peter Daszak and the Eco Health Alliance once gain of function testing was determined by our Congresss to be too dangerous to conduct here. He funneled hundred of Millions of Dollars to Wuhan and Covid 19 was the result. Someday a REAL journalist is going to write the definitive history of this incredible saga of hubris, deception, misuse of propaganda, lies and greed. It won't be me. I don't have the time. But it will make for an interesting read for sure.

Before there was a vaccine I'd say going for health and available cures is a smart play. But the stuff you mention isn't even the best for boosting glutathione levels. Vitamin C is a joke and you will get diarrhea before it really does anything. NAC and even better stabilized sulphoraphane is way better and has way more real research behind it. And there is research showing sulphoraphane, turmeric and aspirin have a synergistic effect--so if I can't convince you of vaccines--at least check that out. Also anything quercetin does regarding reducing the level of inflammatory cytokines (IL-6, TNFα, and IL-1βIL-6) its likely fisetin does much better. And reducing the cytokine storm of COVID would be the potential benefit. Me, I'd stick to a vaccine and steroids but if you are going herbal--I'd want people to have the best outcomes FYI.

For some information about mRNA vaccines (risks/history), VAERs data misuse and covid -as well as how things changed with Delta (based on research) please watch this
https://youtu.be/HR_irr2zyaQ
There are risks for asymptomatic infections potentially including stroke and grey matter loss--no thanks!

mRNA vaccines are not "gene therapy" and misinformed people are conflating DNA and RNA all over the place, creating FUD for no reason.

The Central Dogma of Molecular Biology states that DNA makes RNA makes proteins. The process by which DNA is copied to RNA is called transcription, and that by which RNA is used to produce proteins is called translation. This is straight Wikipedia stuff and not new since these vaccines.

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-02483-w

These are not brand new just because they were still in research phase--literally decades of research have been done going back to the 70s. The reason they took long is that they degrade quickly and are expensive to make--that was the obstacle to be overcome--absolutely nothing to do with inherent safety, etc. I have a Dr friend who knows people at moderna and has been saying these have been coming for a while.

I would not trust anyone not quoting real research--there are too many hucksters cynically selling ALT viewpoints that are simply means to gain fame, sell magic beans all the while I'd bet they probably get the real stuff themselves.

I also urge everyone to re-watch Contagion (2011). F-ing brilliant. They even have the huckster (Jude Law) selling herbal cures (Forsythia). Meanwhile today people still have the gall to do the same thing.

This is nothing new--the crazies come out of the woodwork to sell you BS--trying to say they have special knowledge--but its just garbage FUD.

Whether gain of function research was the cause is TBD--I'm open to new information--but that has absolutely nothing to do with mRNA vaccines and making sure you get the best outcomes.

Almost retired, I had been taking a multivitamin and fish oil prior but added vitamin D. I notice a nice boost in energy, I think I was vitamin D deficient before. I know the multivitamin has most of them.

It's crazy that you call the skeptics lunatics. WE have a vaccine that doesn't kill the virus, requires the vaccinated be protected from the unvaccinated (IE the point of a vaccine in the first place), brand new MNRA tech and then you waive your rights to sue when you get it. Not lining up for that. Sorry.

Then you have certain people discriminating against unvaccinated people when we were all unvaccinated and the vast majority of us didn't get it and then a small small fraction actually died. And trying to scare the masses. Guess what, if this were all true, most of Florida and Texas wouldn't be here........

[dougthonus]

Seems like the problem has always been icu beds, if we had enough of those and the personnel to work them then i see no issue with covid in a post vaccine world. Nothing would need to be shut down and there would not need to be any restrictions.

If everyone got vaccinated, you wouldn't need to worry about ICU beds.

If there was no vaccination at all, and the risks were of those that are unvaccinated, then COVID would be the biggest killer in the world, well beyond things like cancer and heart disease (by a factor of 10), if there were no restrictions and it'd still be a massive problem.

Doug, turn off CNN please.

I don't follow any news outlets on COVID, just publicly available data points and scholarly articles.

I'm curious as to which part of the above you think is untrue or hyperbolic? The part that if everyone were vaccinated you wouldn't need to worry about ICU beds? I mean that's unbelievably obvious given that you're literally approximately 100x more likely to be hospitalized if you are unvaccinated.

That it would kill more than cancer if we did nothing and had no vaccine? Well that's also obvious, because it was basically break even with cancer in the year with very limited vaccine and unprecedented restrictions.

[micromonkey]

The GOF research is Fauci pulling a Clinton IMO.

-But while that research was done apparently--the conclusion/end result isn't suggesting anything just yet.

Newsweek contacted the NIH for comment from Fauci and received this statement: "NIH has never approved any research that would make a coronavirus more dangerous to humans. (I would call that a lie)

"The research we supported in China, where coronaviruses are prevalent, sought to understand the behavior of coronaviruses circulating in bats that have the potential to cause widespread disease. The body of science produced by this research demonstrates that the bat coronavirus sequences published from that work NIH supported were not SARS-CoV-2.

"More importantly, because of similar research to understand coronaviruses, we were able to move swiftly to develop vaccines against SARS-CoV-2 and save lives."

So far this appears to be truthful--minus the "never approved". Funny--first is "it wasn't me" then take credit for the research.

So this means people likely lied (A "noble lie" in their eyes I'm sure) but in the end its not a smoking gun for lab origin. It doesn't shut it down entirely--but we can be 99% sure that the US didn't pay for it--if it was a lab leak.

China also was working on other GOF and many got shot down by US.

Again GOF isn't evil--and to be honest--likely did help quickly sequence and understand the thing--and how to fight it--when it did happen. This was all due to risks seen with SARS and MERS--there are decades of likely research--the speed of vaccine (2 weeks) is because of all this work.

Until we have more data showing a true lab leak--all the research thus far looks like it was able to serve it's intended purpose--give us insight and knowledge of how to fight these things in the case of an actual pandemic.

Not everything is a GD Michael Crichton Novel--sometimes research is research and yes its dangerous but in this case (so far) seems it was worth it.

[Almost Retired]

The GOF research is Fauci pulling a Clinton IMO.

-But while that research was done apparently--the conclusion/end result isn't suggesting anything just yet.

Newsweek contacted the NIH for comment from Fauci and received this statement: "NIH has never approved any research that would make a coronavirus more dangerous to humans. (I would call that a lie)

"The research we supported in China, where coronaviruses are prevalent, sought to understand the behavior of coronaviruses circulating in bats that have the potential to cause widespread disease. The body of science produced by this research demonstrates that the bat coronavirus sequences published from that work NIH supported were not SARS-CoV-2.

"More importantly, because of similar research to understand coronaviruses, we were able to move swiftly to develop vaccines against SARS-CoV-2 and save lives."

So far this appears to be truthful--minus the "never approved". Funny--first is "it wasn't me" then take credit for the research.

So this means people likely lied (A "noble lie" in their eyes I'm sure) but in the end its not a smoking gun for lab origin. It doesn't shut it down entirely--but we can be 99% sure that the US didn't pay for it--if it was a lab leak.

China also was working on other GOF and many got shot down by US.

Again GOF isn't evil--and to be honest--likely did help quickly sequence and understand the thing--and how to fight it--when it did happen. This was all due to risks seen with SARS and MERS--there are decades of likely research--the speed of vaccine (2 weeks) is because of all this work.

Until we have more data showing a true lab leak--all the research thus far looks like it was able to serve it's intended purpose--give us insight and knowledge of how to fight these things in the case of an actual pandemic.

Not everything is a GD Michael Crichton Novel--sometimes research is research and yes its dangerous but in this case (so far) seems it was worth it.

How was f******* with mother nature which led to Millions of deaths worldwide, the destruction of the world economy, and untold number of hospitizations "WORTH IT". Please, enlighten me.

[Almost Retired]

[Almost retired, I had been taking a multivitamin and fish oil prior but added vitamin D. I notice a nice boost in energy, I think I was vitamin D deficient before. I know the multivitamin has most of them.

It's crazy that you call the skeptics lunatics. WE have a vaccine that doesn't kill the virus, requires the vaccinated be protected from the unvaccinated (IE the point of a vaccine in the first place), brand new MNRA tech and then you waive your rights to sue when you get it. Not lining up for that. Sorry.

Then you have certain people discriminating against unvaccinated people when we were all unvaccinated and the vast majority of us didn't get it and then a small small fraction actually died. And trying to scare the masses. Guess what, if this were all true, most of Florida and Texas wouldn't be here........

Stig, my recommendations aren't just pulled out of my ass. When Covid escaped the lab in Wuhan "Peak Prosperity" ran copies of scientific articles from over a decade earlier about the original SARS outbreak and the MERS outbreak that followed years later. The articles mentioned Hydroxychloroquine and Zinc being possible treatments to reduce the severity of the coronavirus infections. The method of action put forth was that the Hydroxychloroquine acted as an ionophore, which to simplify it meant it acted as a conduit to allow zinc ions to penetrate cell walls better. It is the zinc ions that are the key. They interfere with the reproduction cycle of the virus. WHEN TAKEN EARLY this can slow down the replication of the virus sufficiently to allow the body to build up its natural immune response without the body being overrun with virus that then triggers the cytokine storm and/or severe lung damage. If the patient is too far gone into a Covid infection it is too late for zinc with any ionophore to make a difference. The studies on Hydroxychloroquine where they gave it to severely ill patients was flawed from its inception. And knowing the government (as I have learned) they probably meant the study to fail. Because after all there was no money to be made by anybody from Hydroxychloroquine. As with most things government related....follow the money.

Now when Peak Prosperity was warning readers to prepare for the inevitable arrival of Covid they knew that people would not be able to get Hydroxychloroquine quickly enough when they started to feel sick from Covid. So they recommended Quercetin, which is bioflavanoid derived from fruit skins primarily. It too acts as an ionophore and is readily available from retail outlets dealing in health supplements. (I get mine on-line from a supplement supplier called Piping Rock). Peak Prosperity recommended taking quercetin and zinc supplements prophylactically. And I've been doing so for 18 months.

Later on it became apparent to some observers that the severity of Covid infections seemed to be worse (generally) in patients with low Vit D levels in their blood. There is no proof of this per se, but the "after the fact" meta analysis sure seems to show a strong correlation. Vit D is cheap and readily available. I started taking 5,000 units of Vit D. That gave me good levels in the winter but slightly above high normal in the summer when I get more sun in Texas. So I dropped down to 4,000 units of D and my levels are high normal, right where I want them to be.

The other thing I take is Tumeric, which I am a strong proponent of. I was able to get off prescription anti-inflammatory drugs that I took for a bad back. I get a 2400 mg capsule from Piping Rock and I take one twice a day. I read a scholarly article from a few years ago which provided the 3 pathway mechanism of how tumeric works as an anti-inflammatory and an immune modulator. Again, its cheap, readily available and has many benefits, possibly even anti-cancer activity.

My Vit C dose is low, and probably adds very little. I also take some antioxidants to ward off eye problems. (Macular degeneration has hit a few older relatives.) I'm hoping astaxanthin, resveretrol and lutein help to prevent that disease from afflicting me. I use my eyes reading or working about 16 hours a day.

And I'm not 100% against vaccines, even the Covid mRNA nano cellular implant injections mistakenly referred to as vaccines. I went thru the Moderna series back in June under pressure from the hospitals I work for. Being older I was not of the age group of young men that are particularly prone to myocarditis from the jab. And I thought the Tumeric that I routinely take would quell any severe inflammatory reaction. That seemed to work out OK for me at least. I had zero reaction from even the 2nd vaccine. But I attribute that to the tumeric. I just don't think the government has the Constitutional right to order any person to get any type of medical procedure, drug or vaccine. It can provide information through public service announcements, newspaper ads, TV advertisements. Whatever. But it's my body, my choice right? I got the jab. Reluctantly. But if I was a 25 year old male athlete I would have refused the jab and just use my prophylactic cocktail. There are no long term studies on these particular nano-lipid mRNA jabs. No long term toxicology data. They were rushed through. I don't care if the concept was studied for decades. I'm interested on the data on these particular jabs. I think people should make up their own minds, without threats from government, news media teleprompter readers or Hollywood stars who apparently have no need to wear masks at their events due to their super human status. Anyway, go your own way. Don't be pressured to take something you're not comfortable with. I understand the arguments in favor of the jab, but I also recognize that the other side has legitimate concerns that should be respected. And I just don't trust our Federal government ultimately. 95% of what they spew on anything are lies. And they are corrupt and/or incompetent on so many levels it's ridiculous. Afghanistan and the southern border just being the most recent examples. If they are pushing the jabs hard be afraid. Be very afraid.

[Almost Retired]

New Study Shows 1 in 1000 Develop Heart Inflammation After Covid Vaccination; Myocarditis and Other Related Heart Conditions Have Increased Death Rate Within 5 Years
By Julian Conradson
Published September 21, 2021 at 5:56pm

Please replace with link to article and quote pieces of article you find relevant or want to highlight. You can't post full articles or snippets of articles without linking back to them, which you were just told a couple pages back

[chefo]

The GOF research is Fauci pulling a Clinton IMO.

-But while that research was done apparently--the conclusion/end result isn't suggesting anything just yet.

Newsweek contacted the NIH for comment from Fauci and received this statement: "NIH has never approved any research that would make a coronavirus more dangerous to humans. (I would call that a lie)

"The research we supported in China, where coronaviruses are prevalent, sought to understand the behavior of coronaviruses circulating in bats that have the potential to cause widespread disease. The body of science produced by this research demonstrates that the bat coronavirus sequences published from that work NIH supported were not SARS-CoV-2.

"More importantly, because of similar research to understand coronaviruses, we were able to move swiftly to develop vaccines against SARS-CoV-2 and save lives."

So far this appears to be truthful--minus the "never approved". Funny--first is "it wasn't me" then take credit for the research.

So this means people likely lied (A "noble lie" in their eyes I'm sure) but in the end its not a smoking gun for lab origin. It doesn't shut it down entirely--but we can be 99% sure that the US didn't pay for it--if it was a lab leak.

China also was working on other GOF and many got shot down by US.

Again GOF isn't evil--and to be honest--likely did help quickly sequence and understand the thing--and how to fight it--when it did happen. This was all due to risks seen with SARS and MERS--there are decades of likely research--the speed of vaccine (2 weeks) is because of all this work.

Until we have more data showing a true lab leak--all the research thus far looks like it was able to serve it's intended purpose--give us insight and knowledge of how to fight these things in the case of an actual pandemic.

Not everything is a GD Michael Crichton Novel--sometimes research is research and yes its dangerous but in this case (so far) seems it was worth it.

How was f******* with mother nature which led to Millions of deaths worldwide, the destruction of the world economy, and untold number of hospitizations "WORTH IT". Please, enlighten me.

I'll play devil's advocate.

It's worth it because when it becomes apparent as daylight that the Chinese got sloppy with their safety protocols and let COVID accidentally escape in 19, then hopefully, that'll put an end to a bunch of really smart people tinkering with stuff that's waaay above their mental faculties anyways--i.e. the news that hit today in the UK that DARPA declined US funding for a Daszak grant proposal to create (among other things) an airborne MERS variant (that kills a cool 30% of people who catch it, regardless of age) with the same spike protein as the one found in COVID-19, optimized for human infection (coincidence much?)... and then release the multiple variants in the wild (bat caves) in China. To be carried out by... drumroll, the Wuhan Institute of Virology.

Yeah, DARPA gave him the polite "WTF are you smoking?--GTFO!" answer by telling the team that proposed it that they may not have thought that one through.

I'm all for science. But, how is what these guys and gals were doing any different than bio-weapon research? Seriously, how is creating "chimeric viruses" (their own description) optimized for infecting humans any different than weaponizing Anthrax by making it airborne? I know people have been tinkering with doomsday military tech for 50 years (nukes, chemicals, bio), but I sure don't have to like them doing it. Not when a single F-up can cause apocalyptic consequences. There's science, but there's also ethics. I don't buy Fauci's argument that even if it accidentally causes a pandemic, that kind of tinkering is worth it in the long run.

BTW, this shouldn't be political. It's a humanitarian concern and should be handled the same as tackling pollution, or clean water, or whatnot--do stuff that helps, so long as you don't run the risk of killing us all off, because of your hubris of believing that your superior intellect allows to keep everything under control at all times.

That's not how the world works, unfortunately. I don't want these guys doing ANY research of that nature. I'm sure in their heads it's justified, but in mine, it's not.

[Almost Retired]

As for what was posted above by Almost Retired that Fauci gave "millions of dollars to fund gain of function studies that were deemed too dangerous to conduct in the USA, that's nonsense. The Wuhan Institute was given a grant of 600K in 2014 for research into bat coronaviruses. Their research was deemed not to be gain of function by the NIH and the UNC, which was involved in similar studies. It was Rand Paul who tried to claim it was. There is a lot of debate among scientists as to what constitutes GOF research, so it is a bit of a gray area. But to baldly make this claim about Fauci and the NIH is just garbage, and another attempt to spread disinformation.

https://www.bbc.com/news/57932699

https://theintercept.com/2021/09/06/new-details-emerge-about-coronavirus-research-at-chinese-lab/

NEW DETAILS EMERGE ABOUT CORONAVIRUS RESEARCH AT CHINESE LAB
More than 900 pages of materials related to U.S.-funded coronavirus research in China were released following a FOIA lawsuit by The Intercept.

The bat coronavirus grant provided EcoHealth Alliance with a total of $3.1 million, including $599,000 that the Wuhan Institute of Virology used in part to identify and alter bat coronaviruses likely to infect humans. Even before the pandemic, many scientists were concerned about the potential dangers associated with such experiments.

https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1435053505169944579.html

The materials show that the 2014 and 2019 NIH grants to EcoHealth with subcontracts to WIV funded gain-of-function research as defined in federal policies in effect in 2014-2017 and potential pandemic pathogen enhancement as defined in federal policies in effect in 2017-present. ...

The materials confirm the grants supported the construction--in Wuhan--of novel chimeric SARS-related coronaviruses that combined a spike gene from one coronavirus with genetic information from another coronavirus, and confirmed the resulting viruses could infect human cells.

The materials reveal that the resulting novel, laboratory-generated SARS-related coronaviruses also could infect mice engineered to display human receptors on cells ("humanized mice").

The materials further reveal for the first time that one of the resulting novel, laboratory-generated SARS-related coronaviruses--one not been previously disclosed publicly--was more pathogenic to humanized mice than the starting virus from which it was constructed, and thus not only was reasonably anticipated to exhibit enhanced pathogenicity, but, indeed, was *demonstrated* to exhibit enhanced pathogenicity.

The materials further reveal that the the grants also supported the construction--in Wuhan--of novel chimeric MERS-related coronaviruses that combined spike genes from one MERS-related coronavirus with genetic information from another MERS-related coronavirus.

The documents make it clear that assertions by the NIH Director, Francis Collins, and the NIAID Director, Anthony Fauci, that the NIH did not support gain-of-function research or potential pandemic pathogen enhancement at WIV are untruthful.

Thanks for the support in providing "more pablum". I would have cited the same article had I the time. 10 hour day at the hospital today. Very busy, but only one new Covid admit. The recent Delta spike is winding down noticeably here in Austin, Texas, without quarantines or lockdowns. Our ICUs were at or near capacity for close to 2 weeks. What I'm seeing personally at my 3 hospitals is that once a Covid patient is bad enough to get sent to ICU and put on a vent their chances of ever leaving the hospital are pretty low. We've had some that made it. But the odds are not in their favor. Robert Kennedy Jr., no stark raving conservative, has a pretty disparaging book coming out about Fauci. It will be enlightening to those who take the time to read it. It might change some opinions on Fauci who many people mistakenly believe is some kind of saint. Snake is more like it. But you don'r survive in Washington DC for that long without being a total lying weasel. As in almost all things emanating from the cesspool of Washington DC....follow the money (and the patents.)

[TheStig]

If everyone got vaccinated, you wouldn't need to worry about ICU beds.

If there was no vaccination at all, and the risks were of those that are unvaccinated, then COVID would be the biggest killer in the world, well beyond things like cancer and heart disease (by a factor of 10), if there were no restrictions and it'd still be a massive problem.

Doug, turn off CNN please.

I don't follow any news outlets on COVID, just publicly available data points and scholarly articles.

I'm curious as to which part of the above you think is untrue or hyperbolic? The part that if everyone were vaccinated you wouldn't need to worry about ICU beds? I mean that's unbelievably obvious given that you're literally approximately 100x more likely to be hospitalized if you are unvaccinated.

That it would kill more than cancer if we did nothing and had no vaccine? Well that's also obvious, because it was basically break even with cancer in the year with very limited vaccine and unprecedented restrictions.

Ca and NY have the most aggressive covid policies. FL and Tx the least.

Ca has 39.51 million people and 68k deaths
NY has 19.45 million people and 55k deaths
Tx has 29 million people and 62k deaths
FL has 21.48 million people and 52k deaths

Let that sink in. In the state with massive amounts of tourists and the least rules they have less deaths than NY. Texas has a lower percentage than NY too. California has faired the best. But Tx is not that far worse. The worst state on the list is the one with the mandates and masks. By your tone, TX and Florida should be having multiple times the deaths. It's just not the case. And Florida has the oldest population, so they should have more deaths.

[dougthonus]

New Study Shows 1 in 1000 Develop Heart Inflammation After Covid Vaccination; Myocarditis and Other Related Heart Conditions Have Increased Death Rate Within 5 Years
By Julian Conradson
Published September 21, 2021 at 5:56pm

Please replace with link to article and quote pieces of article you find relevant or want to highlight. You can't post full articles or snippets of articles without linking back to them, which you were just told a couple pages back

Quoting you so you see this.

[dougthonus]

Ca and NY have the most aggressive covid policies. FL and Tx the least.

Ca has 39.51 million people and 68k deaths
NY has 19.45 million people and 55k deaths
Tx has 29 million people and 62k deaths
FL has 21.48 million people and 52k deaths

Let that sink in. In the state with massive amounts of tourists and the least rules they have less deaths than NY. Texas has a lower percentage than NY too. California has faired the best. But Tx is not that far worse. The worst state on the list is the one with the mandates and masks. By your tone, TX and Florida should be having multiple times the deaths. It's just not the case. And Florida has the oldest population, so they should have more deaths.

I'm not sure what you mean by my tone. I'm not even sure how this relates to anything I said at all?

I mean to state the obvious, NY is BY FAR the most densely populated of those states and also the one where people spend the most time indoors in highly clustered areas due to the fact that it's the only one that isn't a warm weather state.

If you are asking my opinion on COVID policies, I think many of them are ridiculous, inconsistent, and worthless.

[chifan1798]

I don't follow any news outlets on COVID, just publicly available data points and scholarly articles.

I'm curious as to which part of the above you think is untrue or hyperbolic? The part that if everyone were vaccinated you wouldn't need to worry about ICU beds? I mean that's unbelievably obvious given that you're literally approximately 100x more likely to be hospitalized if you are unvaccinated.

That it would kill more than cancer if we did nothing and had no vaccine? Well that's also obvious, because it was basically break even with cancer in the year with very limited vaccine and unprecedented restrictions.

Ca and NY have the most aggressive covid policies. FL and Tx the least.

Ca has 39.51 million people and 68k deaths
NY has 19.45 million people and 55k deaths
Tx has 29 million people and 62k deaths
FL has 21.48 million people and 52k deaths

Let that sink in. In the state with massive amounts of tourists and the least rules they have less deaths than NY. Texas has a lower percentage than NY too. California has faired the best. But Tx is not that far worse. The worst state on the list is the one with the mandates and masks. By your tone, TX and Florida should be having multiple times the deaths. It's just not the case. And Florida has the oldest population, so they should have more deaths.

I’d say, keep in mind, when the pandemic started, NYC was the epicenter. In those very early stages, before lockdowns truly started to begin, thousands of people probably died. So they had a head start in a massive amount of deaths….back when we didn’t even likely know what to do to try and treat it that well. Probably less of an effect is the population density of NYC is likely considerably higher population density than any place in FL. Also, FL is always warm, and if people were gathering, there were more opportunities for them to be in outdoor spaces, so potentially the initial spread wasn’t as bad. Who knows. But NYC took the brunt of the fatalities at the beginning , before we actually knew what to do about it.

[Dresden]

As for what was posted above by Almost Retired that Fauci gave "millions of dollars to fund gain of function studies that were deemed too dangerous to conduct in the USA, that's nonsense. The Wuhan Institute was given a grant of 600K in 2014 for research into bat coronaviruses. Their research was deemed not to be gain of function by the NIH and the UNC, which was involved in similar studies. It was Rand Paul who tried to claim it was. There is a lot of debate among scientists as to what constitutes GOF research, so it is a bit of a gray area. But to baldly make this claim about Fauci and the NIH is just garbage, and another attempt to spread disinformation.

https://www.bbc.com/news/57932699

https://theintercept.com/2021/09/06/new-details-emerge-about-coronavirus-research-at-chinese-lab/

NEW DETAILS EMERGE ABOUT CORONAVIRUS RESEARCH AT CHINESE LAB
More than 900 pages of materials related to U.S.-funded coronavirus research in China were released following a FOIA lawsuit by The Intercept.

The bat coronavirus grant provided EcoHealth Alliance with a total of $3.1 million, including $599,000 that the Wuhan Institute of Virology used in part to identify and alter bat coronaviruses likely to infect humans. Even before the pandemic, many scientists were concerned about the potential dangers associated with such experiments.

https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1435053505169944579.html

The materials show that the 2014 and 2019 NIH grants to EcoHealth with subcontracts to WIV funded gain-of-function research as defined in federal policies in effect in 2014-2017 and potential pandemic pathogen enhancement as defined in federal policies in effect in 2017-present. ...

The materials confirm the grants supported the construction--in Wuhan--of novel chimeric SARS-related coronaviruses that combined a spike gene from one coronavirus with genetic information from another coronavirus, and confirmed the resulting viruses could infect human cells.

The materials reveal that the resulting novel, laboratory-generated SARS-related coronaviruses also could infect mice engineered to display human receptors on cells ("humanized mice").

The materials further reveal for the first time that one of the resulting novel, laboratory-generated SARS-related coronaviruses--one not been previously disclosed publicly--was more pathogenic to humanized mice than the starting virus from which it was constructed, and thus not only was reasonably anticipated to exhibit enhanced pathogenicity, but, indeed, was *demonstrated* to exhibit enhanced pathogenicity.

The materials further reveal that the the grants also supported the construction--in Wuhan--of novel chimeric MERS-related coronaviruses that combined spike genes from one MERS-related coronavirus with genetic information from another MERS-related coronavirus.

The documents make it clear that assertions by the NIH Director, Francis Collins, and the NIAID Director, Anthony Fauci, that the NIH did not support gain-of-function research or potential pandemic pathogen enhancement at WIV are untruthful.

Richard Ebright is one scientist. There are many others that reviewed the work that Eco Alliance was funded for and said this was not gain of function work. As I mentioned, this is a bit of a gray area, and there is debate among scientists as to what constitute GOF research. But the NIH cleared this work, as did the U of NC. So you can pick your "expert" on this topic and back up just about anything, but let's at least be honest that this is not the big conspiracy that someone posting previously alleges. It might have been on the cutting edge of what is permissible, and some people will argue about where that edge will be drawn. But Fauci and the NIH were well aware that there WAS a line, and in their opinions this research grant did not cross it.

[Dresden]

The GOF research is Fauci pulling a Clinton IMO.

-But while that research was done apparently--the conclusion/end result isn't suggesting anything just yet.

Newsweek contacted the NIH for comment from Fauci and received this statement: "NIH has never approved any research that would make a coronavirus more dangerous to humans. (I would call that a lie)

"The research we supported in China, where coronaviruses are prevalent, sought to understand the behavior of coronaviruses circulating in bats that have the potential to cause widespread disease. The body of science produced by this research demonstrates that the bat coronavirus sequences published from that work NIH supported were not SARS-CoV-2.

"More importantly, because of similar research to understand coronaviruses, we were able to move swiftly to develop vaccines against SARS-CoV-2 and save lives."

So far this appears to be truthful--minus the "never approved". Funny--first is "it wasn't me" then take credit for the research.

So this means people likely lied (A "noble lie" in their eyes I'm sure) but in the end its not a smoking gun for lab origin. It doesn't shut it down entirely--but we can be 99% sure that the US didn't pay for it--if it was a lab leak.

China also was working on other GOF and many got shot down by US.

Again GOF isn't evil--and to be honest--likely did help quickly sequence and understand the thing--and how to fight it--when it did happen. This was all due to risks seen with SARS and MERS--there are decades of likely research--the speed of vaccine (2 weeks) is because of all this work.

Until we have more data showing a true lab leak--all the research thus far looks like it was able to serve it's intended purpose--give us insight and knowledge of how to fight these things in the case of an actual pandemic.

Not everything is a GD Michael Crichton Novel--sometimes research is research and yes its dangerous but in this case (so far) seems it was worth it.

How was f******* with mother nature which led to Millions of deaths worldwide, the destruction of the world economy, and untold number of hospitizations "WORTH IT". Please, enlighten me.

I'll play devil's advocate.

It's worth it because when it becomes apparent as daylight that the Chinese got sloppy with their safety protocols and let COVID accidentally escape in 19, then hopefully, that'll put an end to a bunch of really smart people tinkering with stuff that's waaay above their mental faculties anyways--i.e. the news that hit today in the UK that DARPA declined US funding for a Daszak grant proposal to create (among other things) an airborne MERS variant (that kills a cool 30% of people who catch it, regardless of age) with the same spike protein as the one found in COVID-19, optimized for human infection (coincidence much?)... and then release the multiple variants in the wild (bat caves) in China. To be carried out by... drumroll, the Wuhan Institute of Virology.

Yeah, DARPA gave him the polite "WTF are you smoking?--GTFO!" answer by telling the team that proposed it that they may not have thought that one through.

I'm all for science. But, how is what these guys and gals were doing any different than bio-weapon research? Seriously, how is creating "chimeric viruses" (their own description) optimized for infecting humans any different than weaponizing Anthrax by making it airborne? I know people have been tinkering with doomsday military tech for 50 years (nukes, chemicals, bio), but I sure don't have to like them doing it. Not when a single F-up can cause apocalyptic consequences. There's science, but there's also ethics. I don't buy Fauci's argument that even if it accidentally causes a pandemic, that kind of tinkering is worth it in the long run.

BTW, this shouldn't be political. It's a humanitarian concern and should be handled the same as tackling pollution, or clean water, or whatnot--do stuff that helps, so long as you don't run the risk of killing us all off, because of your hubris of believing that your superior intellect allows to keep everything under control at all times.

That's not how the world works, unfortunately. I don't want these guys doing ANY research of that nature. I'm sure in their heads it's justified, but in mine, it's not.

Fauci never said "even if it caused a pandemic, it was still worth it". Really, that's pretty shameless.

Second of all, as I understand it, the modifications they made to the virus were not the kind that would make it more infectious to humans, or would be a variant that could turn into Covid 19. I think that is a big misunderstanding. They did modify it in some small ways in order to study it and learn more about it, but it was never a modification that would turn into something potentially viable.

Thirdly, even if this virus did escape from the lab, it's more probable that what escaped was a sample of a coronavirus collected from a wild source and was being studied in the lab, rather than something that the lab created.

But people love to believe in vast conspiracies....

[micromonkey]

The GOF research is Fauci pulling a Clinton IMO.

-But while that research was done apparently--the conclusion/end result isn't suggesting anything just yet.

Newsweek contacted the NIH for comment from Fauci and received this statement: "NIH has never approved any research that would make a coronavirus more dangerous to humans. (I would call that a lie)

"The research we supported in China, where coronaviruses are prevalent, sought to understand the behavior of coronaviruses circulating in bats that have the potential to cause widespread disease. The body of science produced by this research demonstrates that the bat coronavirus sequences published from that work NIH supported were not SARS-CoV-2.

"More importantly, because of similar research to understand coronaviruses, we were able to move swiftly to develop vaccines against SARS-CoV-2 and save lives."

So far this appears to be truthful--minus the "never approved". Funny--first is "it wasn't me" then take credit for the research.

So this means people likely lied (A "noble lie" in their eyes I'm sure) but in the end its not a smoking gun for lab origin. It doesn't shut it down entirely--but we can be 99% sure that the US didn't pay for it--if it was a lab leak.

China also was working on other GOF and many got shot down by US.

Again GOF isn't evil--and to be honest--likely did help quickly sequence and understand the thing--and how to fight it--when it did happen. This was all due to risks seen with SARS and MERS--there are decades of likely research--the speed of vaccine (2 weeks) is because of all this work.

Until we have more data showing a true lab leak--all the research thus far looks like it was able to serve it's intended purpose--give us insight and knowledge of how to fight these things in the case of an actual pandemic.

Not everything is a GD Michael Crichton Novel--sometimes research is research and yes its dangerous but in this case (so far) seems it was worth it.

How was f******* with mother nature which led to Millions of deaths worldwide, the destruction of the world economy, and untold number of hospitizations "WORTH IT". Please, enlighten me.

You are making an assumption that GOF research (specifically US funded) caused it-there is nothing showing that it did.
You jump from --they were researching and doing GOF to-that caused the pandemic--which we know in this specific case is not true.

You may believe it--but at least with the intercept docs they know whatever research was done with US money-what the genetic sequence was--and it was NOT COVID-19. This research did however build our knowledge of coronaviruses/spike proteins which was then able to be used later to create a vaccine in weeks. This was also built upon decades of SARS/MERS research that has been going on as well.

Or you are assuming lab leak of another research-possible but where is that conclusive evidence--and if it was a lab leak--it was obviously not "worth it".

I am speaking directly about the GOF the US was involved in--that apparently was good research as it didn't leak--and is not what is causing the pandemic.

[TheStig]

Ca and NY have the most aggressive covid policies. FL and Tx the least.

Ca has 39.51 million people and 68k deaths
NY has 19.45 million people and 55k deaths
Tx has 29 million people and 62k deaths
FL has 21.48 million people and 52k deaths

Let that sink in. In the state with massive amounts of tourists and the least rules they have less deaths than NY. Texas has a lower percentage than NY too. California has faired the best. But Tx is not that far worse. The worst state on the list is the one with the mandates and masks. By your tone, TX and Florida should be having multiple times the deaths. It's just not the case. And Florida has the oldest population, so they should have more deaths.

I'm not sure what you mean by my tone. I'm not even sure how this relates to anything I said at all?

I mean to state the obvious, NY is BY FAR the most densely populated of those states and also the one where people spend the most time indoors in highly clustered areas due to the fact that it's the only one that isn't a warm weather state.

If you are asking my opinion on COVID policies, I think many of them are ridiculous, inconsistent, and worthless.

That all these policies make little difference.

[lemonmellow]

Fauci never said "even if it caused a pandemic, it was still worth it". Really, that's pretty shameless.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3484390/

In an unlikely but conceivable turn of events, what if that scientist becomes infected with the virus, which leads to an outbreak and ultimately triggers a pandemic? Many ask reasonable questions: given the possibility of such a scenario—however remote—should the initial experiments have been performed and/or published in the first place, and what were the processes involved in this decision?

Scientists working in this field might say—as indeed I have said—that the benefits of such experiments and the resulting knowledge outweigh the risks.

-Anthony S. Fauci

[Almost Retired]

[/b]

How was f******* with mother nature which led to Millions of deaths worldwide, the destruction of the world economy, and untold number of hospitizations "WORTH IT". Please, enlighten me.

I'll play devil's advocate.

It's worth it because when it becomes apparent as daylight that the Chinese got sloppy with their safety protocols and let COVID accidentally escape in 19, then hopefully, that'll put an end to a bunch of really smart people tinkering with stuff that's waaay above their mental faculties anyways--i.e. the news that hit today in the UK that DARPA declined US funding for a Daszak grant proposal to create (among other things) an airborne MERS variant (that kills a cool 30% of people who catch it, regardless of age) with the same spike protein as the one found in COVID-19, optimized for human infection (coincidence much?)... and then release the multiple variants in the wild (bat caves) in China. To be carried out by... drumroll, the Wuhan Institute of Virology.

Yeah, DARPA gave him the polite "WTF are you smoking?--GTFO!" answer by telling the team that proposed it that they may not have thought that one through.

I'm all for science. But, how is what these guys and gals were doing any different than bio-weapon research? Seriously, how is creating "chimeric viruses" (their own description) optimized for infecting humans any different than weaponizing Anthrax by making it airborne? I know people have been tinkering with doomsday military tech for 50 years (nukes, chemicals, bio), but I sure don't have to like them doing it. Not when a single F-up can cause apocalyptic consequences. There's science, but there's also ethics. I don't buy Fauci's argument that even if it accidentally causes a pandemic, that kind of tinkering is worth it in the long run.

BTW, this shouldn't be political. It's a humanitarian concern and should be handled the same as tackling pollution, or clean water, or whatnot--do stuff that helps, so long as you don't run the risk of killing us all off, because of your hubris of believing that your superior intellect allows to keep everything under control at all times.

That's not how the world works, unfortunately. I don't want these guys doing ANY research of that nature. I'm sure in their heads it's justified, but in mine, it's not.

Fauci never said "even if it caused a pandemic, it was still worth it". Really, that's pretty shameless.

Second of all, as I understand it, the modifications they made to the virus were not the kind that would make it more infectious to humans, or would be a variant that could turn into Covid 19. I think that is a big misunderstanding. They did modify it in some small ways in order to study it and learn more about it, but it was never a modification that would turn into something potentially viable.

Thirdly, even if this virus did escape from the lab, it's more probable that what escaped was a sample of a coronavirus collected from a wild source and was being studied in the lab, rather than something that the lab created.

But people love to believe in vast conspiracies....

Your understanding is wrong. The Virus was put through gain of function cell culturing. It was "enticed" to develop a higher affinity for ACE receptor proteins. And a peculiar furin-like cleavage site was added, a feature not found in other SARS-like coronaviruses. These manipulations were made with the express purpose of making the virus more adapted to efficient spreading among human populations. Scientific American I believe had a pretty good article on this about mid year in 2020. I don't have the exact publication date but it can be found. Other numerous articles on the subject have been written. This isn't a conspiracy theory. Scientists not beholding to Federal grant money have written and spoken about this for almost 2 years. The virus didn't develop by itself in nature only to be release unto the world via bat soup in a Wuhan wet market. It escaped the lab either accidentally or purposefully. We should never have started this type of research in the first place. Professor Barik of UNC Chapel Hill started us down this road, and when our government tried to end such research in our country Fauci farmed out the research to Wuhan, taking care to partially cover his tracks by first sending money to his friend Peter Daszak of EcoHealth Alliance which then funneled the money to Wuhan. At least $3.1 Million. The rest is history. Millions dead. Economies devastated. And because some scientists wanted to play God.

[dougthonus]

That all these policies make little difference.

I agree that many policies are ineffective and stupid. Going back to my original point, do you believe that if people took absolutely no action whatsoever that the death count would be the same?

As an example, do you think that a massive shift of the work force to work from home and change in use of public transportation where a huge amount of the people working indoors in enclosed spaces in large groups was taken away had no impact on the outcomes? Do you think wearing of masks makes absolutely no difference in spread?