Bulls Might Now Be More Likely To Trade Luol Deng

[kingkirk]

Here's my take:

Deng can be the 3rd best offensive player on a championship team. The 2 questions are...

1) Can we pay him like a 3rd option guy? Now how much that is, is debatable, but $12-14M seems like 2nd option territory. If not, you're stuck with a guy that isn't worth his contract in a CBA world that is much harder to trade bad contracts.

Max money is second option money. That's the case in Indiana, Houston, OKC, Miami etc.

[pylb]

I agree with you. But at the same time playing heavy minutes is a great deal of Deng's value. If Deng was a 32 minute a game player, he wouldn't be too valuable. He needs those minutes to produce.

Perhaps his numbers would be similar if he was more fresh rather than having periods where he plays 17-19 consecutive minutes in a game.

No other coach in the league does this to their best player.

I agree with this,, but I hope Butler coming back allows Thibs to give Deng a few more short breathers here and there.

[League Circles]

Here's my take:

Deng can be the 3rd best offensive player on a championship team. The 2 questions are...

1) Can we pay him like a 3rd option guy? Now how much that is, is debatable, but $12-14M seems like 2nd option territory. If not, you're stuck with a guy that isn't worth his contract in a CBA world that is much harder to trade bad contracts.

Max money is second option money. That's the case in Indiana, Houston, OKC, Miami etc.

Thank you. It's just absurd that people think 2nd option money on a title team is that little. That's 3rd-4th option money on a title team.

[dice]

People will look a long time until they find a better fit or player at SF than Luol Deng.

Jimmy Butler is a sf

Well, I don't know about fit but he's certainly isn't better than Deng at this point of his career.

not if he's relied upon to carry an offense like lu was last night

[dice]

Here's my take:

Deng can be the 3rd best offensive player on a championship team. The 2 questions are...

1) Can we pay him like a 3rd option guy? Now how much that is, is debatable, but $12-14M seems like 2nd option territory. If not, you're stuck with a guy that isn't worth his contract in a CBA world that is much harder to trade bad contracts.

Max money is second option money. That's the case in Indiana, Houston, OKC, Miami etc.

Thank you. It's just absurd that people think 2nd option money on a title team is that little. That's 3rd-4th option money on a title team.

doesn't it depend on the player? you don't pay a guy based on what other contenders are paying their 2nd options. deng is not d wade. deng is not westbrook. deng is not harden

[TankJob]

The question is do you want Deng or you want a chance to get a legit star player in 2015. while having talented & cheap options on the wing in Butler and Snell. It's an easy answer folks.

This is coming from a huge Deng fan. It's time for him to go.

[League Circles]

Max money is second option money. That's the case in Indiana, Houston, OKC, Miami etc.

Thank you. It's just absurd that people think 2nd option money on a title team is that little. That's 3rd-4th option money on a title team.

doesn't it depend on the player? you don't pay a guy based on what other contenders are paying their 2nd options. deng is not d wade. deng is not westbrook. deng is not harden

Of course, that's why no one is advocating paying Deng the max that those other, better 2nd options get. BUT, it's reasonable to pay Deng as an "elite" 3rd or 4th option, cause that's what he is, and that's what we're talking of paying him as.

[bentheredengthat]

I agree with you. But at the same time playing heavy minutes is a great deal of Deng's value. If Deng was a 32 minute a game player, he wouldn't be too valuable. He needs those minutes to produce.

Perhaps his numbers would be similar if he was more fresh rather than having periods where he plays 17-19 consecutive minutes in a game.

No other coach in the league does this to their best player.

That's what drives me insane about Thibs. Last night we had a great stretch in the 2nd quarter where MDJ and Snell held down the 2 and 3 pretty well for a 5 minutes stretch while Deng rested.

I mean the offense looked better than it has for a while and the defense didn't fall apart.

But did we ever even look at that option in the second half? Nope.


EDIT: And seemingly everyone but Thibs knew Luol needed a breather somewhere in the 2nd half, even if it didn't go to OT

[dice]

no one is advocating paying Deng the max that those other, better 2nd options get. BUT, it's reasonable to pay Deng as an "elite" 3rd or 4th option, cause that's what he is, and that's what we're talking of paying him as.

it still varies wildly depending on team circumstance. i mean, tony parker makes 12.5 and is the highest paid spur

[dice]

seemingly everyone but Thibs knew Luol needed a breather somewhere in the 2nd half, even if it didn't go to OT

playing all the game minutes doesn't mean you're not getting breaks. it's not soccer

[kingkirk]

doesn't it depend on the player? you don't pay a guy based on what other contenders are paying their 2nd options. deng is not d wade. deng is not westbrook. deng is not harden

No, and that's why Deng isn't getting a max deal.

Iguodala, a 4th option, just got 4 yrs & 48 million. Josh Smith for 4 years and 54. Ibaka is making 12 million. David West is making 12 million at the age of 33.

That's his market. That is what he is worth and as a 3rd option, that money is fair and comparable.

[kingkirk]

no one is advocating paying Deng the max that those other, better 2nd options get. BUT, it's reasonable to pay Deng as an "elite" 3rd or 4th option, cause that's what he is, and that's what we're talking of paying him as.

it still varies wildly depending on team circumstance. i mean, tony parker makes 12.5 and is the highest paid spur

The Spurs are the outlier in nearly every possible way.

When your franchise piece is taking massive pay cuts when he could easily be commanding 20 million annually like Bryant has with LA, others will fall in line and take less.

[DuckIII]

The question is do you want Deng or you want a chance to get a legit star player in 2015. while having talented & cheap options on the wing in Butler and Snell. It's an easy answer folks.

This is coming from a huge Deng fan. It's time for him to go.

I don't view that as the question. Who would that player be?

[kingkirk]

The question is do you want Deng or you want a chance to get a legit star player in 2015. while having talented & cheap options on the wing in Butler and Snell. It's an easy answer folks.

This is coming from a huge Deng fan. It's time for him to go.

I'm assuming by your username you're advocating getting that second star via the draft. I'm also assuming you think its probable that we land one of the top 4 jets.

Essentially, what you're saying is, 'Do you want a known all star commodity in Deng versus the very slim chances of getting someone who may be better down the line than Deng though its more likely we end up finding someone similar but younger i.e. not a top 20 type talent'.

[jmajew]

Is the new offense better for Deng? Does it maximize his talents?

From my standpoint it is an extremely good fit for him. I believe it will end up making him more efficient. Thus, making him and even better 2nd star. With that said will this offense fit Rose's game? If it doesn't we need to scrap it and probably dump Deng. That is why Rose's injury is so frustrating. We have no idea what works with this group and what doesn't. It makes it extremely difficult to team build.

If Deng keeps playing like he has the past week for the rest of the season he will be worth a near max contract.

[dice]

doesn't it depend on the player? you don't pay a guy based on what other contenders are paying their 2nd options. deng is not d wade. deng is not westbrook. deng is not harden

No, and that's why Deng isn't getting a max deal.

Iguodala, a 4th option, just got 4 yrs & 48 million. Josh Smith for 4 years and 54. Ibaka is making 12 million. David West is making 12 million at the age of 33.

That's his market. That is what he is worth and as a 3rd option, that money is fair and comparable.

i think you're making kind of a mishmash of comparisons there. if you're talking player quality, west and iguodala have been better than deng. josh smith is meanwhile the highest paid player on his team. and i think many if not most people would argue that ibaka is overpaid

the average 3rd option makes 14% of payroll (11 mil). the average 4th option makes 11% of payroll (8.5 million). so...on a team with the bulls' payroll, the typical salary range for the 3rd/4th highest paid player is 8.5 to 11 million. now, i'm not saying that's what lu is worth. just another way of looking at it

[dice]

If Deng keeps playing like he has the past week for the rest of the season he will be worth a near max contract.

not to us going forward. probably not to anyone going forward. he may GET close to max money, but it would be a foolish deal for whoever shells out

ideally lu beasts for a month and then we get a good return from some team willing to rent him for the rest of the season

[League Circles]

doesn't it depend on the player? you don't pay a guy based on what other contenders are paying their 2nd options. deng is not d wade. deng is not westbrook. deng is not harden

No, and that's why Deng isn't getting a max deal.

Iguodala, a 4th option, just got 4 yrs & 48 million. Josh Smith for 4 years and 54. Ibaka is making 12 million. David West is making 12 million at the age of 33.

That's his market. That is what he is worth and as a 3rd option, that money is fair and comparable.

i think you're making kind of a mishmash of comparisons there. if you're talking player quality, west and iguodala have been better than deng. josh smith is meanwhile the highest paid player on his team. and i think many if not most people would argue that ibaka is overpaid

the average 3rd option makes 14% of payroll (11 mil). the average 4th option makes 11% of payroll (8.5 million). so...on a team with the bulls' payroll, the typical salary range for the 3rd/4th highest paid player is 8.5 to 11 million. now, i'm not saying that's what lu is worth. just another way of looking at it

Wait a minute, why are you posting the average salaries when the bulls are an above average team and have a well above average payroll, and deng is a way above average 3rd or 4th best player?

[kingkirk]

i think you're making kind of a mishmash of comparisons there. if you're talking player quality, west and iguodala have been better than deng. josh smith is meanwhile the highest paid player on his team. and i think many if not most people would argue that ibaka is overpaid

the average 3rd option makes 14% of payroll (11 mil). the average 4th option makes 11% of payroll (8.5 million). so...on a team with the bulls' payroll, the typical salary range for the 3rd/4th highest paid player is 8.5 to 11 million. now, i'm not saying that's what lu is worth. just another way of looking at it

West, Ibaka Iguodala & Josh Smith are all comparable players to Deng. They're in the same tier and ultimately, on a title team, are all 3rd options at best.

They're all paid market value for someone in that tier.

The 11 million figure includes guys on rookie scale deals as well. Someone like Chandler Parsons who is making 1 million is a 3rd option and skews those numbers.

If we look at guys off their rookie contract, many guys in the similar tier to Lu have or will get 12 million annually.

[BuffaloBull]

Let's go over quickly what new information has come out since the start of this season:

Rose is out again for the season (that's bad)

Mirotic is beasting in Europe (that's good)

Taj has matured as an offensive player (that's good)

Jimmy is out with turf toe (that's bad)

Tony has started, and had some very nice games (that's good)

Luol so far has been healthy and the team's best player (first part's good, at least)

I want to focus in on Mirotic a bit.

His great showing makes me wonder whether Luol isn't more likely to stay. Knowing you can bring Mirotic in and count on him to be a piece, vs. thinking of him as a lesser, complementary-type player, means you might want to try to find pieces that fit with him. And Luol is a great 3 to go with Mirotic at the 4: he's big, physical, a good defender and rebounder. And with Mirotic able to shoot 3s, you are able to run a Mirotic--Deng--Butler at the 4--3--2 and get away with it, just like Utah got away with having Ronnie Brewer and Kirilenko start on the wings because they had Okur.

The money works out as well: assuming Deng gets a 4 year extension, Jimmy gets extended, and Mirotic comes over on a 3 year deal, that would only be 1 year (the last year of Deng's deal) where you have to pay all 3 guys on mature deals.