WT- Nate unlikely to be back (WAIT! + instagram pic pg 81!)

[Ben]

Honestly, ill toot ralph07's horn, the guy who works for espn, he probably doesn't to force feed u his information but I don't mind;)

Indications are dunleavyme open is seen as a 2G which makes sense because as a sf this seems like a mediocre signing. At shooting guard it seems he can be an x-factor as well as a crowded well rounded backcourt.

Why are we tooting my horn, I'm lost

You're not the only one.

[bearadonisdna]

Honestly, ill toot ralph07's horn, the guy who works for espn, he probably doesn't to force feed u his information but I don't mind;)

Indications are dunleavyme open is seen as a 2G which makes sense because as a sf this seems like a mediocre signing. At shooting guard it seems he can be an x-factor as well as a crowded well rounded backcourt.

Why are we tooting my horn, I'm lost

I'm trying to tell these guys when u said the bulls indicate dunleavyme open is a 2g offensively and will be defending the weaker of the wing players. Thought it was pertinent to the discussion of the backcourt.

[dice]

RAPM (widely considered the most reliable version of +/-, though still very variable season-to-season):

5.4 taj

2.4 lu
1.7 jo

0.0 kirk
-0.2 jimmy
-0.3 nate

-1.5 rip
-1.6 cook
-1.8 booz
-2.5 marco
-2.5 nazr
-3.0 teague

https://sites.google.com/site/rapmstats/2013-rapm-non-prior-informed-updated-march-30

[Ralphb07]

If Dunleavy is seen as 2G by this staff then were going to have real issues. Dunleavy needs to be the primary backup to Deng at the 3 or we might see the first player collapse on the court due to exhaustion.

Dunleavy will play the 3 and 4, but even then it depends on who we play. Vs Miami Butler checks Wade, Deng checks LBJ and Dunleavy on Allen or Miller.

2 and the 3?

I think we see a lot of Deng at the four this year to be honest. I see Butler, Deng and Dunleavy playing a lot together.

I wouldn't mind seeing some Deng at the 4 depending on matchups. It could be an advantage to us in certain situations.

Not you, but in general, people get fixated on position too much. We're going to see a lot of a trio of Kirk, Butler, Deng and Mike paired with Rose and Noah. When Mike is with them, he will always probably cover the weaker player of the three, whether it's the 2, 3 or 4

[Ben]

I have to bring up one individual point:

As mentioned in my OP, your numbers can be brought up with the players you on the court with, as long as there are higher ranked players. In the Heat case, Lebron raises every player he plays with. On the Bulls Gibson, Butler, and Hinrich raise the players they play with. In the Miami case, both Wade, and Chambers are raised up plaing with Lebron, and the way Wade played during the regular season, Chambers may have been more valuable, but they were at least fairly close, not like the huge advantage the stats show Hinrich, over Nate. I like how the true adjusted stats let you see both the offensive, and defensive effectiveness of the lineups with these players individually.

What's this now? The way that Wade played during the regular season-- 21/5/5 in fewer than 36 mpg, while shooting 52% from the floor-- Chambers may have been more valuable? Which league are you watching? What stats are you using? I was giving you the benefit of the doubt a few minutes ago, but come on now, man... are you watching the games?

EDIT: Hey, wait a minute, I recognize you... you do watch the games. Welcome back! I still think that you're completely wrong on this particular point, but I've always enjoyed our conversations. (To others: this is not a previously banned poster.) So... looking forward to your explanation of sources so I can reflect some more on the issue.

[Ralphb07]

Honestly, ill toot ralph07's horn, the guy who works for espn, he probably doesn't to force feed u his information but I don't mind;)

Indications are dunleavyme open is seen as a 2G which makes sense because as a sf this seems like a mediocre signing. At shooting guard it seems he can be an x-factor as well as a crowded well rounded backcourt.

Why are we tooting my horn, I'm lost

You're not the only one.

I am all for tooting my horn, but wasn't sure why

But I do agree with him

[Ben]

RAPM (widely considered the most reliable version of +/-, though still very variable season-to-season):

5.4 taj

2.4 lu
1.7 jo

0.0 kirk
-0.2 jimmy
-0.3 nate

-1.5 rip
-1.6 cook
-1.8 booz
-2.5 marco
-2.5 nazr
-3.0 teague

https://sites.google.com/site/rapmstats/2013-rapm-non-prior-informed-updated-march-30

Yeah, that's widely respected, but there are also guys who are trying to go beyond that. Like this fellow:
http://godismyjudgeok.com/DStats/aspm-and-vorp/

Trying to take into account some long-term trends. According to those advanced, adjusted +/- stats, Nate is far above Kirk.

But at any rate, you're saying that according to RAPM Nate and Kirk were more or less even. And Nate had far superior individual stats (and much better stats compared with his on-court counterpart). So at best one could say that they're a wash, but there's absolutely no way that one could come away with there being a vast pro-Kirk gulf between them that makes Mario Chalmers vs. Dwyane Wade look dead-even by comparison. Which is what mostek seems to be claiming.

[Ralphb07]

I'll settle this whole Kirk vs Nate thing. Don't re sign Nate, waive Kirk and sign me. I am 5'9 so am Nate's size, I play defense like Kirk. I am like both of them combined into one.

[pylb]

Alternately, sign me. I'm 6'4", Kirk's size, and I'll play defense like Nate.

[Rerisen]

RAPM (widely considered the most reliable version of +/-, though still very variable season-to-season):

5.4 taj

2.4 lu
1.7 jo

0.0 kirk
-0.2 jimmy
-0.3 nate

-1.5 rip
-1.6 cook
-1.8 booz
-2.5 marco
-2.5 nazr
-3.0 teague

https://sites.google.com/site/rapmstats/2013-rapm-non-prior-informed-updated-march-30

Nate's starting lineups were especially bad, his bench units with multiple defenders much better. Luckily he wouldn't be asked to start and play 30m again next year.

As we can see from the bottom tier of your separation, at this price range, lucky to even get a guy giving you near net neutral. Can't take that for granted with just anyone.

At this point I no longer see Kirk and Nate as that much of competing interests. They bring totally different things, both which are valuable in the right situation.

[FecesOfDeath]

WTF is Chambers? Tom Chambers?

[Jvaughn]

Forget both of those guys. I'm 6'4, have a 6'9 wingspan, play D like Tony Allen, stroke the ball like Korver, and get to the hole like Tyreke. I'm obviously the best choice.

[Ralphb07]

WTF is Chambers? Tom Chambers?

Haha, yeah Tom Chambers made a comeback, you didn't hear?

[TyrusRose2425]

Forget both of those guys. I'm 6'4, have a 6'9 wingspan, play D like Tony Allen, stroke the ball like Korver, and get to the hole like Tyreke. I'm obviously the best choice.

Well I'm like Michael Jordan. But the better version.

[RedBulls23]

I'm like a poor mans Jannero Pargo...keep me the hell away from the team.

[Trm3]

Forget both of those guys. I'm 6'4, have a 6'9 wingspan, play D like Tony Allen, stroke the ball like Korver, and get to the hole like Tyreke. I'm obviously the best choice.

Well I'm like Michael Jordan. But the better version.

Is that kinda like the Slam magazine that had Grant Hill on the cover saying "Like Mike, Only Better"*

*I'll never forget that cover

[Jvaughn]

Forget both of those guys. I'm 6'4, have a 6'9 wingspan, play D like Tony Allen, stroke the ball like Korver, and get to the hole like Tyreke. I'm obviously the best choice.

Well I'm like Michael Jordan. But the better version.

Is that kinda like the Slam magazine that had Grant Hill on the cover saying "Like Mike, Only Better"*

*I'll never forget that cover

For those of you who were too young to remember. Lol

[Trm3]

Well I'm like Michael Jordan. But the better version.

Is that kinda like the Slam magazine that had Grant Hill on the cover saying "Like Mike, Only Better"*

*I'll never forget that cover

For those of you who were too young to remember. Lol

Really showing my age with remembering that. Look at how hardcore Hill looks..

I think pretty much after that cover he went onto having all those ankle problems.

[Baller93]

Someone go to GarPax and just show them this vid

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P3t-DuslN4E[/youtube]

and this one...

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bSmy9qIXFuo&list=PLMqMVheZXbQteHnA54oHRwgc3cAvVNbeq&index=19[/youtube]

[kdapiton]

And before those games, he's done some amazing things all year long. Won us a couple of games. The best six we've had in recent memory I think, because as of right now my puny brain just can't come up with someone.