Just Sad, "Chicago sees deadliest Memorial Day weekend in four years"

[dice]

Also, not all deaths are the same. If a suspect is shot by police because he's shot at them, that's a lot different than a suspect who gets killed because a cop is kneeling on his neck for 9 minutes.

There's no racial disparity between unarmed whites and unarmed blacks in terms of being killed by police. To the extent there is a disparity, it's against unarmed whites actually.

flies in the face of the common sense reality that racists exist in police departments, and based on incomplete data. not all police departments produce all race data

https://www.google.com/search?ei=rlHZXoyeLNDGsQW8p5jgDQ&q=%22incomplete+data%22+race+policing&oq=%22incomplete+data%22+race+policing&gs_lcp=CgZwc3ktYWIQAzoFCCEQoAE6BQgAEJECOgUIABCDAToCCAA6BQgAELEDOgQIABBDOgcIABCxAxBDOgcIABCDARBDOgYIABAWEB46BQghEKsCOggIIRAWEB0QHjoHCCEQChCgAVClwgJY6PECYKf0AmgAcAB4AIABlQGIAbkZkgEFMTUuMTaYAQCgAQGqAQdnd3Mtd2l6&sclient=psy-ab&ved=0ahUKEwiMrYG1-OjpAhVQY6wKHbwTBtwQ4dUDCAw&uact=5

when presented with data that doesn't jive with common sense, you should be asking yourself why. did you ever stop to think that maybe police departments with race disparities in their outcomes are less likely to report it if not required?

the question is not whether the black community suffers disproportionately at the hands of police. the question is the extent of the disparity and what needs to be done to combat it

[Dominator83]

A neighborhood is only as good as the people that are in it. If the people are good the neighborhoods good. If the people are bad the neighborhoods bad. A big reason why there's never any progress made is because those neighborhood leaders won't admit there's a problem there , and instead deflects blame to the cops, teachers, politicians, etc. In order to solve a problem, you have to face the fact that there is one.

You have no idea what you’re talking about. The vast majority of people in Englewood, Austin etc are honest, decent hard-working people just like any other neighborhood. Let’s say there are 1000 people in a 3 block radius. 990 of them are those good people and 10 (1%) are hardcore gangbangers, usually carrying a gun and with zero fear of the police. A couple of those gangbangers decide to set up shop on your stoop. You step outside and ask them to leave and they tell you where you can shove it. You call the cops. The cops show up and they scatter. Guess what, they know where you live and what you look like. You have to walk out of the house every day to go to the store or work. Now you’re terrified to go anywhere. What do you do?

Let’s say you’re a mother and decide to start a group called Mothers Against Senseless Killings (MASK) to do exactly what racists say your neighborhood won’t do and protest the violence and put your life on the line to stand on corners trying to patrol your own neighborhood. That’s exactly what Chantelle Grant and Andrea Stoudemire were doing when they were gunned down last summer https://www.google.com/amp/s/abcnews.go.com/amp/US/total-cowardice-chicago-mothers-killed-drive-shooting-taking/story%3fid=64653175. What do you do?

Don’t sit in your safe neighborhood and throw stones at the good people of these neighborhoods who are held hostage by a small group of domestic terrorists because you have zero idea of what their reality is really like.

Brilliant.

This was my experience as well on the South Side. And that's as an Indian student.

Ok. So you say 99% are good, 1% are bad. Yet, if the police or military went in and cleaned out that 1%, the other 99% would be screaming BLM. You can't have your cake and eat it too. You either want the bad apples cleaned out by any means necessary, or you don't.

[musiqsoulchild]

Also, not all deaths are the same. If a suspect is shot by police because he's shot at them, that's a lot different than a suspect who gets killed because a cop is kneeling on his neck for 9 minutes.

There's no racial disparity between unarmed whites and unarmed blacks in terms of being killed by police. To the extent there is a disparity, it's against unarmed whites actually.

If it was all a lie, it wouldn't attract so many people to it.

This comment signifies a very basic misunderstanding of human history and human beings in general.

Why are you so attracted to "KILLING" only?

Why arent you looking at the entire spectrum of crime?

[musiqsoulchild]

You have no idea what you’re talking about. The vast majority of people in Englewood, Austin etc are honest, decent hard-working people just like any other neighborhood. Let’s say there are 1000 people in a 3 block radius. 990 of them are those good people and 10 (1%) are hardcore gangbangers, usually carrying a gun and with zero fear of the police. A couple of those gangbangers decide to set up shop on your stoop. You step outside and ask them to leave and they tell you where you can shove it. You call the cops. The cops show up and they scatter. Guess what, they know where you live and what you look like. You have to walk out of the house every day to go to the store or work. Now you’re terrified to go anywhere. What do you do?

Let’s say you’re a mother and decide to start a group called Mothers Against Senseless Killings (MASK) to do exactly what racists say your neighborhood won’t do and protest the violence and put your life on the line to stand on corners trying to patrol your own neighborhood. That’s exactly what Chantelle Grant and Andrea Stoudemire were doing when they were gunned down last summer https://www.google.com/amp/s/abcnews.go.com/amp/US/total-cowardice-chicago-mothers-killed-drive-shooting-taking/story%3fid=64653175. What do you do?

Don’t sit in your safe neighborhood and throw stones at the good people of these neighborhoods who are held hostage by a small group of domestic terrorists because you have zero idea of what their reality is really like.

Brilliant.

This was my experience as well on the South Side. And that's as an Indian student.

Ok. So you say 99% are good, 1% are bad. Yet, if the police or military went in and cleaned out that 1%, the other 99% would be screaming BLM. You can't have your cake and eat it too. You either want the bad apples cleaned out by any means necessary, or you don't.

Dominater, that element of crime that exists in minority neighborhoods is not something you clean away.

You have to work on it over an entire generation before you see it get wiped out.

When mixed income housing was introduced after bringing down Cabrini Green, it was a massive failure at first.

It took a good 20 years before results were seen. That's how long solutions to systemic problems take.

There is no magic button to push.

The kind of reform we need is for the long haul.

[Dominator83]

A neighborhood is only as good as the people that are in it. If the people are good the neighborhoods good. If the people are bad the neighborhoods bad. A big reason why there's never any progress made is because those neighborhood leaders won't admit there's a problem there , and instead deflects blame to the cops, teachers, politicians, etc. In order to solve a problem, you have to face the fact that there is one.

You have no idea what you’re talking about. The vast majority of people in Englewood, Austin etc are honest, decent hard-working people just like any other neighborhood. Let’s say there are 1000 people in a 3 block radius. 990 of them are those good people and 10 (1%) are hardcore gangbangers, usually carrying a gun and with zero fear of the police. A couple of those gangbangers decide to set up shop on your stoop. You step outside and ask them to leave and they tell you where you can shove it. You call the cops. The cops show up and they scatter. Guess what, they know where you live and what you look like. You have to walk out of the house every day to go to the store or work. Now you’re terrified to go anywhere. What do you do?

Let’s say you’re a mother and decide to start a group called Mothers Against Senseless Killings (MASK) to do exactly what racists say your neighborhood won’t do and protest the violence and put your life on the line to stand on corners trying to patrol your own neighborhood. That’s exactly what Chantelle Grant and Andrea Stoudemire were doing when they were gunned down last summer https://www.google.com/amp/s/abcnews.go.com/amp/US/total-cowardice-chicago-mothers-killed-drive-shooting-taking/story%3fid=64653175. What do you do?

Don’t sit in your safe neighborhood and throw stones at the good people of these neighborhoods who are held hostage by a small group of domestic terrorists because you have zero idea of what their reality is really like.

I know I'm quoting you again, but I would like to say that your post is well informing, and at least you acknowledge that these domestic terrorists are the root of the problem in these crime driven neighborhoods. According to all these activists, there's no such thing. These domestic terrorists don't exist. It's all the police's fault, it's the teachers fault (which as I posted earlier I know a black former CPS teacher who quit because they have zero chance to succeed with the kids not caring and the parents not having the teachers backs), it's politicians faults, etc. You can't fix a problem when community leaders refuse to admit there's a problem and pass the buck.

The police can use improvements, but so can the people. These 99% of good honest residents need to work WITH the police, not against them, on how to get these 1% terrorists off the streets so the neighborhood becomes safe for these people to walk around without having to worry about being shot or jumped.

That should be the common goal here. And if these neighborhoods become safe, a lot more cops would feel a hell of a lot less on-edge and have a lot less stress while patrolling them.

[gardenofsound]

A neighborhood is only as good as the people that are in it. If the people are good the neighborhoods good. If the people are bad the neighborhoods bad. A big reason why there's never any progress made is because those neighborhood leaders won't admit there's a problem there , and instead deflects blame to the cops, teachers, politicians, etc. In order to solve a problem, you have to face the fact that there is one.

You have no idea what you’re talking about. The vast majority of people in Englewood, Austin etc are honest, decent hard-working people just like any other neighborhood. Let’s say there are 1000 people in a 3 block radius. 990 of them are those good people and 10 (1%) are hardcore gangbangers, usually carrying a gun and with zero fear of the police. A couple of those gangbangers decide to set up shop on your stoop. You step outside and ask them to leave and they tell you where you can shove it. You call the cops. The cops show up and they scatter. Guess what, they know where you live and what you look like. You have to walk out of the house every day to go to the store or work. Now you’re terrified to go anywhere. What do you do?

Let’s say you’re a mother and decide to start a group called Mothers Against Senseless Killings (MASK) to do exactly what racists say your neighborhood won’t do and protest the violence and put your life on the line to stand on corners trying to patrol your own neighborhood. That’s exactly what Chantelle Grant and Andrea Stoudemire were doing when they were gunned down last summer https://www.google.com/amp/s/abcnews.go.com/amp/US/total-cowardice-chicago-mothers-killed-drive-shooting-taking/story%3fid=64653175. What do you do?

Don’t sit in your safe neighborhood and throw stones at the good people of these neighborhoods who are held hostage by a small group of domestic terrorists because you have zero idea of what their reality is really like.

I know I'm quoting you again, but I would like to say that your post is well informing, and at least you acknowledge that these domestic terrorists are the root of the problem in these crime driven neighborhoods. According to all these activists, there's no such thing. These domestic terrorists don't exist. It's all the police's fault, it's the teachers fault (which as I posted earlier I know a black former CPS teacher who quit because they have zero chance to succeed with the kids not caring and the parents not having the teachers backs), it's politicians faults, etc. You can't fix a problem when community leaders refuse to admit there's a problem and pass the buck.

The police can use improvements, but so can the people. These 99% of good honest residents need to work WITH the police, not against them, on how to get these 1% terrorists off the streets so the neighborhood becomes safe for these people to walk around without having to worry about being shot or jumped.

I agree with the general premise of what you're saying but take issue with a couple of things:

1. I don't think ANYONE has disputed the negative effects of violent gangs in these neighborhoods. What we dispute is the root causes of said gangs' continued existences.

2. Working with police after generations of the police marginalizing your community and treating your community like it's all "bad guys" is not so easy. The police need to step up here, also and acknowledge (then take meaningful steps towards improvement of) their issues.

It's been a long time since I saw it, but The Wire went pretty deep into some of these issues.

Chicago in particular has a terrible history of police corruption, frame jobs, and active participation in black market activities not to mention brutality in interrogation/detainment. The legacy of Jon Burge does not die lightly, and it really does not start or end with him. He's just the most well known.

This is a well done investigative report. I suggest you read it: https://theintercept.com/2016/10/06/in-the-chicago-police-department-if-the-bosses-say-it-didnt-happen-it-didnt-happen/

[Ben Wilson25]

A neighborhood is only as good as the people that are in it. If the people are good the neighborhoods good. If the people are bad the neighborhoods bad. A big reason why there's never any progress made is because those neighborhood leaders won't admit there's a problem there , and instead deflects blame to the cops, teachers, politicians, etc. In order to solve a problem, you have to face the fact that there is one.

You have no idea what you’re talking about. The vast majority of people in Englewood, Austin etc are honest, decent hard-working people just like any other neighborhood. Let’s say there are 1000 people in a 3 block radius. 990 of them are those good people and 10 (1%) are hardcore gangbangers, usually carrying a gun and with zero fear of the police. A couple of those gangbangers decide to set up shop on your stoop. You step outside and ask them to leave and they tell you where you can shove it. You call the cops. The cops show up and they scatter. Guess what, they know where you live and what you look like. You have to walk out of the house every day to go to the store or work. Now you’re terrified to go anywhere. What do you do?

Let’s say you’re a mother and decide to start a group called Mothers Against Senseless Killings (MASK) to do exactly what racists say your neighborhood won’t do and protest the violence and put your life on the line to stand on corners trying to patrol your own neighborhood. That’s exactly what Chantelle Grant and Andrea Stoudemire were doing when they were gunned down last summer https://www.google.com/amp/s/abcnews.go.com/amp/US/total-cowardice-chicago-mothers-killed-drive-shooting-taking/story%3fid=64653175. What do you do?

Don’t sit in your safe neighborhood and throw stones at the good people of these neighborhoods who are held hostage by a small group of domestic terrorists because you have zero idea of what their reality is really like.

I know I'm quoting you again, but I would like to say that your post is well informing, and at least you acknowledge that these domestic terrorists are the root of the problem in these crime driven neighborhoods. According to all these activists, there's no such thing. These domestic terrorists don't exist. It's all the police's fault, it's the teachers fault (which as I posted earlier I know a black former CPS teacher who quit because they have zero chance to succeed with the kids not caring and the parents not having the teachers backs), it's politicians faults, etc. You can't fix a problem when community leaders refuse to admit there's a problem and pass the buck.

The police can use improvements, but so can the people. These 99% of good honest residents need to work WITH the police, not against them, on how to get these 1% terrorists off the streets so the neighborhood becomes safe for these people to walk around without having to worry about being shot or jumped.

That should be the common goal here. And if these neighborhoods become safe, a lot more cops would feel a hell of a lot less on-edge and have a lot less stress while patrolling them.

You seem fairly reasonable but hold some thoughts that seem to just be based on your own general perceptions. That’s where a lot of dialogue breaks down. I just gave you a link of 2 “activists” from the community who were talking about holdings criminals to account and banding the community together against them. Not only were they taking about it, they hit the street to do it and were murdered for it. They are more representative of their community than anyone who blames police or anyone else for their problems. There’s been plenty of data in this thread showing that almost every institution from the police to the schools to the political establishment has been found lacking in these communities. Pointing that out is part of getting to the root of the problem, not “blaming”. Honestly, saying every activist and community leader refuses to take ownership of the problems and blames everyone else just feels like looking for a reason to be dismissive. Do you feel the same about white coal miners, factory workers and steelworkers who blame environmental groups, global trade and government policies for their problems? Are they just blaming everyone else instead of trying to solve their own issues?

[Dominator83]

You have no idea what you’re talking about. The vast majority of people in Englewood, Austin etc are honest, decent hard-working people just like any other neighborhood. Let’s say there are 1000 people in a 3 block radius. 990 of them are those good people and 10 (1%) are hardcore gangbangers, usually carrying a gun and with zero fear of the police. A couple of those gangbangers decide to set up shop on your stoop. You step outside and ask them to leave and they tell you where you can shove it. You call the cops. The cops show up and they scatter. Guess what, they know where you live and what you look like. You have to walk out of the house every day to go to the store or work. Now you’re terrified to go anywhere. What do you do?

Let’s say you’re a mother and decide to start a group called Mothers Against Senseless Killings (MASK) to do exactly what racists say your neighborhood won’t do and protest the violence and put your life on the line to stand on corners trying to patrol your own neighborhood. That’s exactly what Chantelle Grant and Andrea Stoudemire were doing when they were gunned down last summer https://www.google.com/amp/s/abcnews.go.com/amp/US/total-cowardice-chicago-mothers-killed-drive-shooting-taking/story%3fid=64653175. What do you do?

Don’t sit in your safe neighborhood and throw stones at the good people of these neighborhoods who are held hostage by a small group of domestic terrorists because you have zero idea of what their reality is really like.

I know I'm quoting you again, but I would like to say that your post is well informing, and at least you acknowledge that these domestic terrorists are the root of the problem in these crime driven neighborhoods. According to all these activists, there's no such thing. These domestic terrorists don't exist. It's all the police's fault, it's the teachers fault (which as I posted earlier I know a black former CPS teacher who quit because they have zero chance to succeed with the kids not caring and the parents not having the teachers backs), it's politicians faults, etc. You can't fix a problem when community leaders refuse to admit there's a problem and pass the buck.

The police can use improvements, but so can the people. These 99% of good honest residents need to work WITH the police, not against them, on how to get these 1% terrorists off the streets so the neighborhood becomes safe for these people to walk around without having to worry about being shot or jumped.

That should be the common goal here. And if these neighborhoods become safe, a lot more cops would feel a hell of a lot less on-edge and have a lot less stress while patrolling them.

You seem fairly reasonable but hold some thoughts that seem to just be based on your own general perceptions. That’s where a lot of dialogue breaks down. I just gave you a link of 2 “activists” from the community who were talking about holdings criminals to account and banding the community together against them. Not only were they taking about it, they hit the street to do it and were murdered for it. They are more representative of their community than anyone who blames police or anyone else for their problems. There’s been plenty of data in this thread showing that almost every institution from the police to the schools to the political establishment has been found lacking in these communities. Pointing that out is part of getting to the root of the problem, not “blaming”. Honestly, saying every activist and community leader refuses to take ownership of the problems and blames everyone else just feels like looking for a reason to be dismissive. Do you feel the same about white coal miners, factory workers and steelworkers who blame environmental groups, global trade and government policies for their problems? Are they just blaming everyone else instead of trying to solve their own issues?

Sounds to me like those white coalminers are passing the buck for sure. Passing blame instead of owning it is definitely a humanity issue, white people included. I still remember being disgusted on here (along with the every poster on here) after a Gar/Pax end of season presser where they basically said (without saying it directly of course) that everybody needs to be held accountable for that awful disappointing season..........except for themselves.

Accountability is a virtue that all humans can improve

[gardenofsound]

You have no idea what you’re talking about. The vast majority of people in Englewood, Austin etc are honest, decent hard-working people just like any other neighborhood. Let’s say there are 1000 people in a 3 block radius. 990 of them are those good people and 10 (1%) are hardcore gangbangers, usually carrying a gun and with zero fear of the police. A couple of those gangbangers decide to set up shop on your stoop. You step outside and ask them to leave and they tell you where you can shove it. You call the cops. The cops show up and they scatter. Guess what, they know where you live and what you look like. You have to walk out of the house every day to go to the store or work. Now you’re terrified to go anywhere. What do you do?

Let’s say you’re a mother and decide to start a group called Mothers Against Senseless Killings (MASK) to do exactly what racists say your neighborhood won’t do and protest the violence and put your life on the line to stand on corners trying to patrol your own neighborhood. That’s exactly what Chantelle Grant and Andrea Stoudemire were doing when they were gunned down last summer https://www.google.com/amp/s/abcnews.go.com/amp/US/total-cowardice-chicago-mothers-killed-drive-shooting-taking/story%3fid=64653175. What do you do?

Don’t sit in your safe neighborhood and throw stones at the good people of these neighborhoods who are held hostage by a small group of domestic terrorists because you have zero idea of what their reality is really like.

I know I'm quoting you again, but I would like to say that your post is well informing, and at least you acknowledge that these domestic terrorists are the root of the problem in these crime driven neighborhoods. According to all these activists, there's no such thing. These domestic terrorists don't exist. It's all the police's fault, it's the teachers fault (which as I posted earlier I know a black former CPS teacher who quit because they have zero chance to succeed with the kids not caring and the parents not having the teachers backs), it's politicians faults, etc. You can't fix a problem when community leaders refuse to admit there's a problem and pass the buck.

The police can use improvements, but so can the people. These 99% of good honest residents need to work WITH the police, not against them, on how to get these 1% terrorists off the streets so the neighborhood becomes safe for these people to walk around without having to worry about being shot or jumped.

That should be the common goal here. And if these neighborhoods become safe, a lot more cops would feel a hell of a lot less on-edge and have a lot less stress while patrolling them.

You seem fairly reasonable but hold some thoughts that seem to just be based on your own general perceptions. That’s where a lot of dialogue breaks down. I just gave you a link of 2 “activists” from the community who were talking about holdings criminals to account and banding the community together against them. Not only were they taking about it, they hit the street to do it and were murdered for it. They are more representative of their community than anyone who blames police or anyone else for their problems. There’s been plenty of data in this thread showing that almost every institution from the police to the schools to the political establishment has been found lacking in these communities. Pointing that out is part of getting to the root of the problem, not “blaming”. Honestly, saying every activist and community leader refuses to take ownership of the problems and blames everyone else just feels like looking for a reason to be dismissive. Do you feel the same about white coal miners, factory workers and steelworkers who blame environmental groups, global trade and government policies for their problems? Are they just blaming everyone else instead of trying to solve their own issues?

Honestly this is the type of dialogue that makes me really happy that this thread is allowed to exist on this board. Exchange of ideas and openness to new/different perceptions. All it takes is people modeling it for it to become normal again.

Kudos to both of you.

[dice]

A neighborhood is only as good as the people that are in it. If the people are good the neighborhoods good. If the people are bad the neighborhoods bad. A big reason why there's never any progress made is because those neighborhood leaders won't admit there's a problem there , and instead deflects blame to the cops, teachers, politicians, etc. In order to solve a problem, you have to face the fact that there is one.

You have no idea what you’re talking about. The vast majority of people in Englewood, Austin etc are honest, decent hard-working people just like any other neighborhood. Let’s say there are 1000 people in a 3 block radius. 990 of them are those good people and 10 (1%) are hardcore gangbangers, usually carrying a gun and with zero fear of the police. A couple of those gangbangers decide to set up shop on your stoop. You step outside and ask them to leave and they tell you where you can shove it. You call the cops. The cops show up and they scatter. Guess what, they know where you live and what you look like. You have to walk out of the house every day to go to the store or work. Now you’re terrified to go anywhere. What do you do?

Let’s say you’re a mother and decide to start a group called Mothers Against Senseless Killings (MASK) to do exactly what racists say your neighborhood won’t do and protest the violence and put your life on the line to stand on corners trying to patrol your own neighborhood. That’s exactly what Chantelle Grant and Andrea Stoudemire were doing when they were gunned down last summer https://www.google.com/amp/s/abcnews.go.com/amp/US/total-cowardice-chicago-mothers-killed-drive-shooting-taking/story%3fid=64653175. What do you do?

Don’t sit in your safe neighborhood and throw stones at the good people of these neighborhoods who are held hostage by a small group of domestic terrorists because you have zero idea of what their reality is really like.

I know I'm quoting you again, but I would like to say that your post is well informing, and at least you acknowledge that these domestic terrorists are the root of the problem in these crime driven neighborhoods. According to all these activists, there's no such thing. These domestic terrorists don't exist.

pretty sure you're making that up. please provide examples of anybody at all saying that all residents of a particular community are good actors

you're misusing the term 'domestic terrorism', by the way. for effect, i'm sure

[Dominator83]

You have no idea what you’re talking about. The vast majority of people in Englewood, Austin etc are honest, decent hard-working people just like any other neighborhood. Let’s say there are 1000 people in a 3 block radius. 990 of them are those good people and 10 (1%) are hardcore gangbangers, usually carrying a gun and with zero fear of the police. A couple of those gangbangers decide to set up shop on your stoop. You step outside and ask them to leave and they tell you where you can shove it. You call the cops. The cops show up and they scatter. Guess what, they know where you live and what you look like. You have to walk out of the house every day to go to the store or work. Now you’re terrified to go anywhere. What do you do?

Let’s say you’re a mother and decide to start a group called Mothers Against Senseless Killings (MASK) to do exactly what racists say your neighborhood won’t do and protest the violence and put your life on the line to stand on corners trying to patrol your own neighborhood. That’s exactly what Chantelle Grant and Andrea Stoudemire were doing when they were gunned down last summer https://www.google.com/amp/s/abcnews.go.com/amp/US/total-cowardice-chicago-mothers-killed-drive-shooting-taking/story%3fid=64653175. What do you do?

Don’t sit in your safe neighborhood and throw stones at the good people of these neighborhoods who are held hostage by a small group of domestic terrorists because you have zero idea of what their reality is really like.

I know I'm quoting you again, but I would like to say that your post is well informing, and at least you acknowledge that these domestic terrorists are the root of the problem in these crime driven neighborhoods. According to all these activists, there's no such thing. These domestic terrorists don't exist.

pretty sure you're making that up. please provide examples of anybody at all saying that all residents of a particular community are good actors

you're misusing the term 'domestic terrorism', by the way. for effect, i'm sure

In this thread, i've seen alot of passing the buck blaming police, teachers, the system, etc. while not at all acknowledging that there is a big problem with some of the people themselves dragging these neighborhoods down and making it hard for everybody. You yourself shrugged off the incarceration rate as being due to petty drug charges, while not acknowledging that the prison population has more than its fair share of guys who are armed robbers, murderers, muggers, looters, car jackers, etc. If your gonna be a ref, call the fouls on both sides of the floor. The police need to get better, but the residents and crime rates need to get better too. It goes hand in hand. And as mentioned, the police in those neighborhoods would be alot less stressed out and jumpy if those neighborhoods were no longer considered dangerous.

and domestic terrorists wasn't my word, it was the guy who i was quotings word. But it is a proper term whether you want to admit that or not. They terrorize their neighborhoods and the residents in them.

[Dresden]

You have no idea what you’re talking about. The vast majority of people in Englewood, Austin etc are honest, decent hard-working people just like any other neighborhood. Let’s say there are 1000 people in a 3 block radius. 990 of them are those good people and 10 (1%) are hardcore gangbangers, usually carrying a gun and with zero fear of the police. A couple of those gangbangers decide to set up shop on your stoop. You step outside and ask them to leave and they tell you where you can shove it. You call the cops. The cops show up and they scatter. Guess what, they know where you live and what you look like. You have to walk out of the house every day to go to the store or work. Now you’re terrified to go anywhere. What do you do?

Let’s say you’re a mother and decide to start a group called Mothers Against Senseless Killings (MASK) to do exactly what racists say your neighborhood won’t do and protest the violence and put your life on the line to stand on corners trying to patrol your own neighborhood. That’s exactly what Chantelle Grant and Andrea Stoudemire were doing when they were gunned down last summer https://www.google.com/amp/s/abcnews.go.com/amp/US/total-cowardice-chicago-mothers-killed-drive-shooting-taking/story%3fid=64653175. What do you do?

Don’t sit in your safe neighborhood and throw stones at the good people of these neighborhoods who are held hostage by a small group of domestic terrorists because you have zero idea of what their reality is really like.

I know I'm quoting you again, but I would like to say that your post is well informing, and at least you acknowledge that these domestic terrorists are the root of the problem in these crime driven neighborhoods. According to all these activists, there's no such thing. These domestic terrorists don't exist.

pretty sure you're making that up. please provide examples of anybody at all saying that all residents of a particular community are good actors

you're misusing the term 'domestic terrorism', by the way. for effect, i'm sure

Gangs are a whole separate issue, but why (and I'm asking Dominator) do you think gangs exist in poor neighborhoods but not wealthy ones, or even middle class ones? There's a whole complex set of conditions that foster the rise of gangs, and I'm not all that well informed about them, but mostly, from what I do know, they form in communities that are disadvantaged, marginalized, and don't have access to the same opportunities as others. The Italian mob formed that way.

To get rid of gangs (and I again, I'm just talking out my ass, but from what little I do know on the subject), involves improving the overall quality of life in the community. Law enforcement is part of it, but so is better education, better child care, more economic activity, etc. etc. They all go hand in hand, and you can't do one without the others.

[dice]

I know I'm quoting you again, but I would like to say that your post is well informing, and at least you acknowledge that these domestic terrorists are the root of the problem in these crime driven neighborhoods. According to all these activists, there's no such thing. These domestic terrorists don't exist.

pretty sure you're making that up. please provide examples of anybody at all saying that all residents of a particular community are good actors

you're misusing the term 'domestic terrorism', by the way. for effect, i'm sure

In this thread, i've seen alot of passing the buck blaming police, teachers, the system, etc. while not at all acknowledging that there is a big problem with some of the people themselves dragging these neighborhoods down and making it hard for everybody.

there are people in EVERY community dragging it down. that's not an interesting discussion

You yourself shrugged off the incarceration rate as being due to petty drug charges

that is a mis-characterization. i said that's a big part of it. and not only drugs. there are racial disparities in sentencing in all areas. and poverty is another factor. there have been endless studies on this stuff

The police need to get better, but the residents and crime rates need to get better too.

individual responsibility is not structural. we're discussing structural issues

It goes hand in hand. And as mentioned, the police in those neighborhoods would be alot less stressed out and jumpy if those neighborhoods were no longer considered dangerous.

sure. but you could say it in exactly the inverse way and it would be just as valid: the residents of a community would be a lot less stressed out and jumpy if the police were no longer considered dangerous

and domestic terrorists wasn't my word, it was the guy who i was quotings word. But it is a proper term whether you want to admit that or not. They terrorize their neighborhoods and the residents in them.

no, it's not the proper term. domestic terrorism is a specific term referring to political acts. environmental activists who destroy cars in car lots are considered domestic terrorists. the KKK are domestic terrorists. a common criminal is not

[Dominator83]

pretty sure you're making that up. please provide examples of anybody at all saying that all residents of a particular community are good actors

you're misusing the term 'domestic terrorism', by the way. for effect, i'm sure

In this thread, i've seen alot of passing the buck blaming police, teachers, the system, etc. while not at all acknowledging that there is a big problem with some of the people themselves dragging these neighborhoods down and making it hard for everybody.

there are people in EVERY community dragging it down. that's not an interesting discussion

You yourself shrugged off the incarceration rate as being due to petty drug charges

that is a mis-characterization. i said that's a big part of it. and not only drugs. there are racial disparities in sentencing in all areas. and poverty is another factor. there have been endless studies on this stuff

The police need to get better, but the residents and crime rates need to get better too.

individual responsibility is not structural. we're discussing structural issues

It goes hand in hand. And as mentioned, the police in those neighborhoods would be alot less stressed out and jumpy if those neighborhoods were no longer considered dangerous.

sure. but you could say it in exactly the inverse way and it would be just as valid: the residents of a community would be a lot less stressed out and jumpy if the police were no longer considered dangerous

and domestic terrorists wasn't my word, it was the guy who i was quotings word. But it is a proper term whether you want to admit that or not. They terrorize their neighborhoods and the residents in them.

no, it's not the proper term. domestic terrorism is a specific term referring to political acts. environmental activists who destroy cars in car lots are considered domestic terrorists. the KKK are domestic terrorists. a common criminal is not

Street gangs that take over and terrorize a neighborhood are terrorists.

Both street gangs and KKK are toxic groups of people that society would be much better and safer without. There, is it really that hard to call a foul on both sides of the floor?

[dice]

In this thread, i've seen alot of passing the buck blaming police, teachers, the system, etc. while not at all acknowledging that there is a big problem with some of the people themselves dragging these neighborhoods down and making it hard for everybody.

there are people in EVERY community dragging it down. that's not an interesting discussion

You yourself shrugged off the incarceration rate as being due to petty drug charges

that is a mis-characterization. i said that's a big part of it. and not only drugs. there are racial disparities in sentencing in all areas. and poverty is another factor. there have been endless studies on this stuff

The police need to get better, but the residents and crime rates need to get better too.

individual responsibility is not structural. we're discussing structural issues

It goes hand in hand. And as mentioned, the police in those neighborhoods would be alot less stressed out and jumpy if those neighborhoods were no longer considered dangerous.

sure. but you could say it in exactly the inverse way and it would be just as valid: the residents of a community would be a lot less stressed out and jumpy if the police were no longer considered dangerous

and domestic terrorists wasn't my word, it was the guy who i was quotings word. But it is a proper term whether you want to admit that or not. They terrorize their neighborhoods and the residents in them.

no, it's not the proper term. domestic terrorism is a specific term referring to political acts. environmental activists who destroy cars in car lots are considered domestic terrorists. the KKK are domestic terrorists. a common criminal is not

Street gangs that take over and terrorize a neighborhood are terrorists.

Both street gangs and KKK are toxic groups of people that society would be much better and safer without. There, is it really that hard to call a foul on both sides of the floor?

why are you pretending that anybody thinks that street gangs are OK? nobody does. they are a function of poverty and not political activism. that was my point. i brought up the KKK because the word 'domestic terrorism' was being misused. i intentionally balanced it out with a left wing example of environmental extremists. that's "calling a foul on both sides of the floor." is it really that hard not to intentionally leave out half of what i said?

[Ben Wilson25]

no, it's not the proper term. domestic terrorism is a specific term referring to political acts. environmental activists who destroy cars in car lots are considered domestic terrorists. the KKK are domestic terrorists. a common criminal is not

Yeah, that was me. I was being flippant with my choice of words but when I think of a terrorist group I think of using violence and the threat of violence to intimidate citizens to further your own agenda. That’s the MO of organized gangs in our neighborhoods. Chicago’s crime issues are primarily gang issues.

It also indirectly shows how difficult the problem is to solve and certainly can’t be done by neighborhood residents alone. The US government spends untold billions a year directly or indirectly fighting terrorism yet there are still terrorist attacks. When a group or individual is armed, has nothing to lose and doesn’t fear death there’s not really anything you can do to completely stop them from wreaking havoc other than changing the conditions that foster that mindset. That is incredibly complex and can take generations.

[Dominator83]

I know I'm quoting you again, but I would like to say that your post is well informing, and at least you acknowledge that these domestic terrorists are the root of the problem in these crime driven neighborhoods. According to all these activists, there's no such thing. These domestic terrorists don't exist.

pretty sure you're making that up. please provide examples of anybody at all saying that all residents of a particular community are good actors

you're misusing the term 'domestic terrorism', by the way. for effect, i'm sure

Gangs are a whole separate issue, but why (and I'm asking Dominator) do you think gangs exist in poor neighborhoods but not wealthy ones, or even middle class ones? There's a whole complex set of conditions that foster the rise of gangs, and I'm not all that well informed about them, but mostly, from what I do know, they form in communities that are disadvantaged, marginalized, and don't have access to the same opportunities as others. The Italian mob formed that way.

To get rid of gangs (and I again, I'm just talking out my ass, but from what little I do know on the subject), involves improving the overall quality of life in the community. Law enforcement is part of it, but so is better education, better child care, more economic activity, etc. etc. They all go hand in hand, and you can't do one without the others.

I don't how it gets solved, history though has shown us it can thru self improvement. Both the Italians and Irish used to have gangs running rampant in this city. They changed their ways of life and pretty much no longer exist. So it can be done. The next generation of kids has to be better and wiser than the ones that preceded them.

Unrelated sidenote: Kinda funny originally all those immigrant groups were classified separately. Italian, Irish, German, Polish, Jewish, French, etc. and over time they just all got rolled into one as "white"

[dice]

pretty sure you're making that up. please provide examples of anybody at all saying that all residents of a particular community are good actors

you're misusing the term 'domestic terrorism', by the way. for effect, i'm sure

Gangs are a whole separate issue, but why (and I'm asking Dominator) do you think gangs exist in poor neighborhoods but not wealthy ones, or even middle class ones? There's a whole complex set of conditions that foster the rise of gangs, and I'm not all that well informed about them, but mostly, from what I do know, they form in communities that are disadvantaged, marginalized, and don't have access to the same opportunities as others. The Italian mob formed that way.

To get rid of gangs (and I again, I'm just talking out my ass, but from what little I do know on the subject), involves improving the overall quality of life in the community. Law enforcement is part of it, but so is better education, better child care, more economic activity, etc. etc. They all go hand in hand, and you can't do one without the others.

I don't how it gets solved, history though has shown us it can thru self improvement. Both the Italians and Irish used to have gangs running rampant in this city. They changed their ways of life and pretty much no longer exist. So it can be done. The next generation of kids has to be better and wiser than the ones that preceded them.

groups of individuals don't meet up as kids and decide they're going to proceed through life "better and wiser" than their parents, though. if a generation is raised in an environment that's similar to the one their parents were raised in, not much is going to change. so that's not a plan. that's punting on trying to make structural improvements

Unrelated sidenote: Kinda funny originally all those immigrant groups were classified separately. Italian, Irish, German, Polish, Jewish, French, etc. and over time they just all got rolled into one as "white"

maybe people got exhausted by discriminating against each other. maybe when their neighborhoods became less segregated they figured out that they weren't all that different from each other

[dice]

no evidence as of yet linking antifa to rioting, contradicting claims made by GOP politicians, but far right groups encouraging attacks on federal agents and protesters:

https://www.businessinsider.com/fbi-no-intelligence-antifa-weekend-violence-george-floyd-protests-2020-6

and trump's authoritarian tendencies are not new:

https://www.businessinsider.com/trump-praised-china-tiananmen-foreshadowing-response-to-george-floyd-protests-2020-6

[Dresden]

Jeff Sessions’ DOJ Effectively Killed An Obama-Era Police Reform Program

“I think this was obviously a decision not to engage in police reform,” says the former head of the Justice Department’s COPS Office.
...
In a March 31 memo, Sessions ordered a review of all programs to make sure they boosted “officer safety, officer morale, and public respect for their work.” Though the Collaborative Reform process was intended to be non-adversarial, DOJ officials found the initiative didn’t live up to those requirements because it identified problems in law enforcement agencies and recommended changes.

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/trump-doj-police-reform-sessions_n_59ce60d6e4b09538b507f1ca