OT: Terrorist attacks in Paris

[Fl_Flash]

Two points:

1. You really don't know what I'm talking about when I refer to those who want to merge Christian doctrines with the American legal system? That strikes me as disingenuous. Christian conservatives have pushed biblical justifications for a wide variety of laws regarding marriage (first mixed race, then same sex), social systems (Jim Crow south), abortion, religion in schools, and more. I think its pretty obvious. Some of these things are still planks in the GOP platform for crying out loud.

2. How is being Muslim an erosion of the foundation? That's kind of my point. The argument assumes that virtually all European Muslims want Sharia law to wholesale replace civil justice systems. Is there any data supporting the notion that a massive super-majority of European Muslims long for their nation's coversion into a theocratic state? That's what I'm asking. Because right now the argument I reacted to was basically "I'm Muslim, therefore I desperately want to live under Sharia law."

As an aside, the Nazis overhauled a secular legal system, with another secular legal system. Albeit a nightmarish one. Regardless, I never said it can't happen. I said that predicting it based merely on religious population statistics strikes me as completely meaningless and superficial. And I requested some deeper justification.

I had a whole big response typed up and lost it.... ah well.

I'll leave it at this.

1. Those folks aren't Christians. They're anything but. Anyone who leads with hate and whose motive is to either create division, inequality, or force someone to do/be different - are decidedly un-Christian.

2. I see very little redeeming qualities in the predominantly Islamic nations. It's not that the rank and file Muslim is bad - just their leaders. It doesn't take much for a minority to subjugate a majority if the majority do nothing. I'm pretty sure the average German citizen in 1940 wasn't all for the extermination of 6 million Jews. They did nothing to stop it though once the Nazis had consolidated power.

I see the same happening in Europe. I don't see how you can look at the past, say, 20 years of what has transpired in Europe, and say that the continent is a better place now, overall, than it was then. I'm not claiming that the huge influx of Muslims into Europe is solely to blame for the issues facing them. You can't exclude them as contributing factors either. Erosion of the foundation. I'm comfortable in stating that without the large influx of Muslims into Eruope, they wouldn't have the extent of the issues they have now. That's simply an opinion of mine without any way to prove (or disprove) it's validity.

You can state that the growth of the presence of Islam within a nation has little to no bearing on that nation ultimately becoming an Islamic state. That's your prerogative and opinion. I don't share your point of view. Over 2000 years of history tell me that as a nation becomes more predominantly Islamic, there is a greater likelihood of the suppression of human rights, the implementation of Sharia law and just a general distancing between the haves and the have nots.

[DarthDiggler69]

Seems like a very obvious point to make, but Muslims know ISIS better than anyone. Not because they're one and the same, but because ISIS has killed more Muslims than any other group. This isn't Islam vs the world. It's ISIS vs the world.

They might know ISIS better because what they do is in their book.

I'm Muslim, and I can tell you in no uncertain terms that I don't know ISIS any better than you do.

I cant say I know them more, but Ill say I read alot about them and Islam almost everyday (i like reading about religion and history) not from a politcal point of view but from a religious and ideological point of view

[HomoSapien]

Just out of curiosity, Darth and Flash -- do you guys know any Muslim people in your personal lives?

[DarthDiggler69]

Just out of curiosity, Darth and Flash -- do you guys know any Muslim people in your personal lives?

Oh yeah tons, I live in NYC now in a predominantly muslim(pakistanis) area. Most of my building neighbors are muslims, we talk about religion like all the time. I had about 6 muslim friends in chicago i grew up with but not the religious type. Muslims and other arab cultures are not foreign to me if thats what you're asking.. Nothing Ive said here that I havent told them

[kingkirk]

I'm fine with this. I would also be fine if you wanted to have a material debate.
There's nothing more cowardly than denying a problem exists just because you're afraid of dealing with the consequences.

Afraid of dealing with what?

If anyone is afraid and whose had fear built into him, is you.

You're garnering responses that simply make others laugh because that's all these outlandish opinions warrant.

Your extremists, right wing views are absurd.

[kingkirk]

There are global terror attacks almost everyday done in the name of God. Here is a good list of Islamic terror attacks, as in done in the name of God globally in 2015
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/attacks/attacks.aspx?Yr=2015

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Islamist_terrorist_attacks#2016

Can someone find one for Christians for 2015? I have a hard time

I support our troops, but our military--especially with the wrongful Operation Iraqi Freedom--have acted as terrorists and created the hotbed we see today where it is simply seen as retaliation for the wrongs committed on behalf of the west.

Terrorism is all perspective. Hundreds of thousands of civilians have died as a result of our attack and war on Iraq since 2003.

That is politically motivated violence that has disenfranchised an entire generation of Iraqi's and thrown the entire region into disarray.

If that's not terrorism, or at least as bad as terrorism, then what is?

The point is that these people have had their families, homes, villages/cities destroyed. It became a fertile breeding ground for extremism and action.

There's correlation here, not causation. The correlation is that the Muslim dominant / terrorist driven countries are the countries we and/or our allies and/or Russia have totally ravaged and manipulated for our own purposes. The common element: war torn countries/peoples and disenfranchised youth. If we had done this type of stuff to India, you'd be talking a lot more about Hindu terrorists. If we did it to South America, you'd be talking about extremist Catholic terrorists.

We, as America, must take most of the blame for the situation becoming what it has become. This conflict has surprisingly very little to do with religion, and everything to do with disenfranchised youth. Have we given them a better alternative than what ISIL and other such terrorist organizations give them?

Parallel question: do we give our inner city youth a better alternative than what gangs can offer them?

The answer on both counts is no. So what the **** are we expecting?

If we keep antagonizing and holding the disenfranchised down, someone will come around and take advantage of their vulnerability to turn them into the demons we fear.

Terrific post.

[HomoSapien]

Like Homo also said, the first people who'll know of a jihadist presence are people from the same community.

I didn't say this.

But about the Muslim American community --- I'm a really social person, and I've lived in quite a few places. Iowa, Chicago, New Mexico, Atlanta, LA. Each place had a different type of Muslim community. Some were more conservative, while others were more liberal and educated. I've never once come across anyone that was remotely sketchy. I also don't know of anyone who has. And though Muslim culture is definitely more conservative and old school, the majority of the younger Muslim people I know drink, have pre-marital sex, date, etc. I'm not saying these nut jobs don't exist, but the people I've come across are normal flawed people. If I were to ever come across someone who felt dangerous, I wouldn't hesitate to notify the authorities about them --- but that's not specific to Muslim people. It's something I'd do regarding anyone who felt dangerous.

This isn't really a Muslim problem. It's a world problem.

[kingkirk]

Lets drop the PC talk. We're talking about a ban on ARABS.

Trump Robbins.

[musiqsoulchild]

Like Homo also said, the first people who'll know of a jihadist presence are people from the same community.

I didn't say this.

But about the Muslim American community --- I'm a really social person, and I've lived in quite a few places. Iowa, Chicago, New Mexico, Atlanta, LA. Each place had a different type of Muslim community. Some were more conservative, while others were more liberal and educated. I've never once come across anyone that was remotely sketchy. I also don't know of anyone who has. And though Muslim culture is definitely more conservative and old school, the majority of the younger Muslim people I know drink, have pre-marital sex, date, etc. I'm not saying these nut jobs don't exist, but the people I've come across are normal flawed people. If I were to ever come across someone who felt dangerous, I wouldn't hesitate to notify the authorities about them --- but that's not specific to Muslim people. It's something I'd do regarding anyone who felt dangerous.

This isn't really a Muslim problem. It's a world problem.

I am not disagreeing with yiu at all. I am agreeing with you 100%.

Replace Homo with Common Sense.

Common Sense tells us that people in the community are the first ones to notice something fishy.

So, we need to include people in Muslim communities - not alienate them even further.

[musiqsoulchild]

To add, David Headley a terrorist connected to AQ, was living and operating in Devon - a neighborhood in Chicago with a sizable Muslim population.

His eventual capture by the FBI was predominantly due to members from the community raising the alarm.

[dice]

http://www.theonion.com/multiblogpost/this-war-will-destabilize-the-entire-mideast-regio-11534

[League Circles]

Just out of curiosity, Darth and Flash -- do you guys know any Muslim people in your personal lives?

Oh yeah tons, I live in NYC now in a predominantly muslim(pakistanis) area. Most of my building neighbors are muslims, we talk about religion like all the time. I had about 6 muslim friends in chicago i grew up with but not the religious type. Muslims and other arab cultures are not foreign to me if thats what you're asking.. Nothing Ive said here that I havent told them

If they're "not the religious type", they're not muslims. Muslims are religious. It's like when someone says they are a "secular jew". No, you aren't. You're someone whose ancestors believed something different than what you believe, and/or are of Hebrew ancestory, but you are not Jewish.

"Muslim" isn't a culture. So there can be no "other arab cultures". Most muslims aren't Arabs.

Indonesia is the world's most populous Muslim country. My wife is muslim, from there. When we first met and I asked her if she was sunni or shia (because I was conditioned to think a muslim had to be one or the other), she didn't really know what I was talking about. Like, she had to think it through and remember what those foreign labels mean before even being able to try to answer. And there are "sunni" terrorists in Indonesia.

I'm just explaining this to give people an idea of the kind of diversity that they might not be able to picture.

[DarthDiggler69]

Just out of curiosity, Darth and Flash -- do you guys know any Muslim people in your personal lives?

Oh yeah tons, I live in NYC now in a predominantly muslim(pakistanis) area. Most of my building neighbors are muslims, we talk about religion like all the time. I had about 6 muslim friends in chicago i grew up with but not the religious type. Muslims and other arab cultures are not foreign to me if thats what you're asking.. Nothing Ive said here that I havent told them

If they're "not the religious type", they're not muslims. Muslims are religious. It's like when someone says they are a "secular jew". No, you aren't. You're someone whose ancestors believed something different than what you believe, and/or are of Hebrew ancestory, but you are not Jewish.

"Muslim" isn't a culture. So there can be no "other arab cultures". Most muslims aren't Arabs.

Indonesia is the world's most populous Muslim country. My wife is muslim, from there. When we first met and I asked her if she was sunni or shia (because I was conditioned to think a muslim had to be one or the other), she didn't really know what I was talking about. Like, she had to think it through and remember what those foreign labels mean before even being able to try to answer. And there are "sunni" terrorists in Indonesia.

I'm just explaining this to give people an idea of the kind of diversity that they might not be able to picture.

Trust me, I know that stuff already about the cultures. Islam has many different cultures, and being of a minority culture myself I am also sensative also about cultures. From what I know, Islam isnt a culture but its a way of life, and I didnt say all muslims are arabs I was saying I know many other arab cultures, maybe I should have said Arab-Muslim cultures to be more clear.

Most muslims I know are Sunni, I knew a couple Shias back in med school but what I do know is that Sunni's I know dont care much about what Shia Muslims think. To note most of the muslims I know now are originally from the middle east and Pakistan. I take nothing from my old (muslim) friends because they dont follow Islam much

[samwana]

There are global terror attacks almost everyday done in the name of God. Here is a good list of Islamic terror attacks, as in done in the name of God globally in 2015
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/attacks/attacks.aspx?Yr=2015

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Islamist_terrorist_attacks#2016

Can someone find one for Christians for 2015? I have a hard time

I support our troops, but our military--especially with the wrongful Operation Iraqi Freedom--have acted as terrorists and created the hotbed we see today where it is simply seen as retaliation for the wrongs committed on behalf of the west.

Terrorism is all perspective. Hundreds of thousands of civilians have died as a result of our attack and war on Iraq since 2003.

That is politically motivated violence that has disenfranchised an entire generation of Iraqi's and thrown the entire region into disarray.

If that's not terrorism, or at least as bad as terrorism, then what is?

The point is that these people have had their families, homes, villages/cities destroyed. It became a fertile breeding ground for extremism and action.

There's correlation here, not causation. The correlation is that the Muslim dominant / terrorist driven countries are the countries we and/or our allies and/or Russia have totally ravaged and manipulated for our own purposes. The common element: war torn countries/peoples and disenfranchised youth. If we had done this type of stuff to India, you'd be talking a lot more about Hindu terrorists. If we did it to South America, you'd be talking about extremist Catholic terrorists.

We, as America, must take most of the blame for the situation becoming what it has become. This conflict has surprisingly very little to do with religion, and everything to do with disenfranchised youth. Have we given them a better alternative than what ISIL and other such terrorist organizations give them?

Parallel question: do we give our inner city youth a better alternative than what gangs can offer them?

The answer on both counts is no. So what the **** are we expecting?

If we keep antagonizing and holding the disenfranchised down, someone will come around and take advantage of their vulnerability to turn them into the demons we fear.

Terrific post.

I agree GREAT, AWESOME post!

[AKfanatic]

Some of you should really look into the purchase of canis lupus familiaris

[samwana]

There are global terror attacks almost everyday done in the name of God. Here is a good list of Islamic terror attacks, as in done in the name of God globally in 2015
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/attacks/attacks.aspx?Yr=2015

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Islamist_terrorist_attacks#2016

Can someone find one for Christians globally for 2015? I have a hard time

https://www.google.com/search?q=syria&espv=2&biw=1842&bih=997&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi64rju6NfLAhUpD5oKHT_RDzoQ_AUIBigB

Have a look here, bombings are done by western so called Christian countries. Big cities are basically wiped out because there are 1000 ISIL living there. I only googled Syria. This is christian terrorism at his best and it's the most cowardly act to fly over a country and drop bombs.

Look at Paris, the terrorist there where not from Syria, yet the french president thought it was the perfect revenge to bomb complete cities in Syria, because terrorists from the Paris and Brussels suburbs committed a perfide crime against humanity. And most were fine with that repercussion, why?

Propaganda train is running wild everywhere (again), but why is there no storm of protest if another city in the Middle East gets flattened?

[kingkirk]

I’m going to sound like a naïve, whining, leftist, but I just can’t understand any view that supports division among people in times like these. It literally makes no sense. The scenarios that exist right now are because of division. Whatever it is, whether it be religious or political based, someone is opposing someone.

Why?

Why when something like this occurs, our instinctive reaction is to look to segment and blame an entire cast of people, as if they’re all terrible maniacs who’s way of life that differs to ours means that our ideals will be fundamentally stripped away?

Maybe it’s not instinctive? Maybe this fear and division is created by those at the top who wish to push their own agenda by shaping the message to those who will listen, that a certain type of person or group is dangerous and must be stopped.

It doesn’t take long to find such nonsense filtering through social media. It’s in this thread. It’s on Twitter, with people supporting guys like Trump, who will stop these terrorists and limit Islam.

It’s all just **** stupid. Instead of creating lines of division and moving forward as people, we continue to act like Neanderthals.

The world is a sad place, as are some of the posts in this thread.

[MF Danger Mouse]

I'm not going to pretend to know Islamic doctrine real well, or how Muslims in general view the interaction of church and state. But just reading your post, it seems superficial to equate the Muslim percentage of a nation's population with whether or not that nation's civil law will be replaced by Sharia law.

I'm sure there are a percentage of Muslims who believe church and state should be merged, with religious law controlling. There are a hell of a lot of Christians in the US that hold this same view, applied to a different faith. But not all do. Do you know how many European Muslims actually favor supplanting civil law with religious law?

Not to mention the legal challenges inherent in overhauling complete legal systems in advanced first world nations.

I guess I'm just looking for more support for your projection.

'Church and State' in Islam is one. Many scholars even consider Islam more a political system rather than a religion

Ive read and heard from Muslim sources that most if not all Islamic countries have the death penalty for being an Apostate(leaving Islam), which is part of Sharia Law. Of course many states vary in how much of it is enforced

Church and State in Islam works, if implemented correctly. You can see the Ottomans at their peak as having this until they broke apart. At one point Muslims and Christians and Jews all lived together with no issue.

People don't realize Sharia Law no longer exists, what they have now is not that. Even the Ottomans stopped practicing it correctly.

[DarthDiggler69]

There are global terror attacks almost everyday done in the name of God. Here is a good list of Islamic terror attacks, as in done in the name of God globally in 2015
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/attacks/attacks.aspx?Yr=2015

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Islamist_terrorist_attacks#2016

Can someone find one for Christians globally for 2015? I have a hard time

https://www.google.com/search?q=syria&espv=2&biw=1842&bih=997&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi64rju6NfLAhUpD5oKHT_RDzoQ_AUIBigB

Have a look here, bombings are done by western so called Christian countries. Big cities are basically wiped out because there are 1000 ISIL living there. I only googled Syria. This is christian terrorism at his best and it's the most cowardly act to fly over a country and drop bombs.

Look at Paris, the terrorist there where not from Syria, yet the french president thought it was the perfect revenge to bomb complete cities in Syria, because terrorists from the Paris and Brussels suburbs committed a perfide crime against humanity. And most were fine with that repercussion, why?

Propaganda train is running wild everywhere (again), but why is there no storm of protest if another city in the Middle East gets flattened?

I didnt know those US attacks on ISIS in Syria were done in the name of Christianity, I thought US had no official religion? and yet some call Obama a Muslim? So I guess once US destroys ISIS Christians from the west will flood the middle east with Churches.

[MF Danger Mouse]

I’m going to sound like a naïve, whining, leftist, but I just can’t understand any view that supports division among people in times like these. It literally makes no sense. The scenarios that exist right now are because of division. Whatever it is, whether it be religious or political based, someone is opposing someone.

Why?

Why when something like this occurs, our instinctive reaction is to look to segment and blame an entire cast of people, as if they’re all terrible maniacs who’s way of life that differs to ours means that our ideals will be fundamentally stripped away?

Maybe it’s not instinctive? Maybe this fear and division is created by those at the top who wish to push their own agenda by shaping the message to those who will listen, that a certain type of person or group is dangerous and must be stopped.

It doesn’t take long to find such nonsense filtering through social media. It’s in this thread. It’s on Twitter, with people supporting guys like Trump, who will stop these terrorists and limit Islam.

It’s all just **** stupid. Instead of creating lines of division and moving forward as people, we continue to act like Neanderthals.

The world is a sad place, as are some of the posts in this thread.

Truth is that it's more peaceful than it has been in AGES, but the hatred is beginning anew. It's sad, people don't realize that the Western world has destroyed modernization for these Islamic countries, which are almost all middle eastern.

Look at Indonesia? Qatar & UAE(hate both), even Saudi to an extent.

These people in these countries lack education and thus can't study Islam and learn, they let religious leaders dictate it.