OT- The Last Dance documentary

[prolific passer]

hard to have a backup plan when you're constructed to win now, which is how it should have been. krause got the opportunity to start over more or less from scratch and failed miserably

Krause was just bad at drafting and the breakup pretty much made any big free agents not want to come to the bulls. Had a chance to replenish and reload the roster during some of the 90s drafts but passed on guys like Michael Finley for Jason Caffey.

I don't think Krause was bad at drafting at all. He had misses but so did everyone. He had a lot of really good drafts too. I think your criticism is that he didn't draft well in the late 1st. Which most teams don't do.

In his rebuild, he just caught some really bad breaks like 2000 draft being an all time worst draft, Jay Williams accident and Eddy Curry having absolutely no work ethic. If he had caught an 03 or 96 draft, I think things could have worked out differently for him.

Well Krause was around for the 96 draft. Everybody missed out Ben Wallace.

[fleet]

there was criticism that dennis sacrificed some of his defensive prowess to chase rebounding stats, and i think there was some legitimacy to that. there was a reminder of it last night with the footage of him and MJ grabbing a rebound simultaneously. they both just kinda looked at each other for a second before MJ relinquished the ball and dennis handed it right back to him while laughing

I don’t think that incident shows Dennis was a stat chaser sacrificing defense for stats. There was that talk, I vaguely remember it. But I don’t remember too many guys scoring on him. He probably just valued possessions. MJ was said at times to rest on defense, but he wasn’t sacrificing to be chasing stats. That cynical conclusion seems a bit unfair.

Now, sacrificing sleep for beer, yeah

i'm not sure whether the criticism is fair or not, but here are the performances of opposing starting PFs in the playoffs relative to their regular season performances

oakley '96 - slightly better (3 games)
kemp '96 - wash (6 games)
webber '97 - wash (3 games)
corbin '97 - wash (5 games)
p.j. brown '97 - worse (5 games)
mvp malone '97 - much worse (6 games)
van horn '98 - wash (3 games)
mason '98 - slightly worse (5 games)
d. davis '98 - better (7 games)
malone '98 - worse (6 games)

so he did really well against malone, anyway. though malone was on the whole a playoffs disappointment in his carer (57.7% ts career regular season vs. 52.6% playoffs)

Watch on YouTube

[dice]

I don’t think that incident shows Dennis was a stat chaser sacrificing defense for stats. There was that talk, I vaguely remember it. But I don’t remember too many guys scoring on him. He probably just valued possessions. MJ was said at times to rest on defense, but he wasn’t sacrificing to be chasing stats. That cynical conclusion seems a bit unfair.

Now, sacrificing sleep for beer, yeah

i'm not sure whether the criticism is fair or not, but here are the performances of opposing starting PFs in the playoffs relative to their regular season performances

oakley '96 - slightly better (3 games)
kemp '96 - wash (6 games)
webber '97 - wash (3 games)
corbin '97 - wash (5 games)
p.j. brown '97 - worse (5 games)
mvp malone '97 - much worse (6 games)
van horn '98 - wash (3 games)
mason '98 - slightly worse (5 games)
d. davis '98 - better (7 games)
malone '98 - worse (6 games)

so he did really well against malone, anyway. though malone was on the whole a playoffs disappointment in his carer (57.7% ts career regular season vs. 52.6% playoffs)

Watch on YouTube

i’m not gonna suggest that dennis didn’t do a respectable job on shaq while w/ the bulls, but i HATE that video. so loaded w/ specious arguments, like:

“the bulls intentionally let shaq feast on luc before switching dennis onto him” (as if that makes any sense as a strategy)

“the refs had to cheat to benefit shaq”

“when he scored on rodman in the 2nd half it didn’t count because the game was out of reach”

“shaq had an off night, so rodman didn’t have to guard him, but he still schooled shaq by rebounding his bricks”

“shaq had to give up the ball on the only possession dennis guarded him” – yeah, because kukoc double-teamed

there’s a reason that dennis was only occasionally on shaq. and it’s because when shaq was rolling you had to use different looks on him, hoping that something would work. and so the bulls would resort to putting dennis on him and bringing constant double teams from some of the best perimeter defenders to ever play the game. also, better to get the centers in foul trouble than dennis

[dougthonus]

I don't think Krause was bad at drafting at all. He had misses but so did everyone. He had a lot of really good drafts too. I think your criticism is that he didn't draft well in the late 1st. Which most teams don't do.

Krause's draft record that is good:
Pippen - All time great pick
Kukoc - Great pick
Oakley - Good pick
Brand - Good pick
Artest - Good pick but didn't pan out for Chicago
Crawford - Good pick but didn't pan out for Chicago
---
Grant - Reportedly, he wanted someone else and was overruled when the coaching staff personally lobbied JR after Krause screwed up the previous draft against the coaching staffs swishes.

For the length of time he was there, that's pretty lousy, but the Pippen and Kukoc picks were so good it's like putting 10k into Amazon when it first stated and also putting 10k into 10 loser stocks. IT wouldn't matter because Amazon by itself went up by a factor of 200 or so.

In his rebuild, he just caught some really bad breaks like 2000 draft being an all time worst draft, Jay Williams accident and Eddy Curry having absolutely no work ethic. If he had caught an 03 or 96 draft, I think things could have worked out differently for him.

Hard to blame him for bad luck. He got Brand in 99 which was a good building block. In 2000, he passed on Mike Miller for Marcus Fizer despite Fizer being an awful fit (Miller was the next selection). He evaluated Tyson Chandler as a better player than Brand which was probably a bad choice and could have taken Pau Gasol instead (next selection) if he was going to make such a trade. Took Eddy Curry where Jason Richardson and Shane Battier were the next two selections (Joe Johnson was 6 slots later).

He maybe got screwed on the Jay Williams accident. Jay Williams had a pretty awful year, but a lot of point guards take a year to develop before playing well, and we never got to see. History doesn't have any other studs in the same draft area, and we would have rioted if we didn't take Williams.

Maybe the worst thing he ever did was make a bunch of "win now" trades in 2002 right before the absolutely loaded 2003 draft. A year of tanking in 2002 and the Bulls are 2 slots higher, and we are rebuilding with Dwyane Wade, not that that's really here nor there in terms of his drafting ability. It's just ironic that if Krause had been able to hold out on his tanking plan for 1 more year then he woudl have likely landed his star.

[ATRAIN53]

I love that we finally have a great take on the 91 Pistons walk off.

I didn't expect the truth would come from John Salley.
We now know LameBEER orchestrated it.

Salley knew they were planning to ghost the Bulls - but he didn't walk off and stuck around because he traded tickets with MJ and Scottie.

That;s pretty cool to think even during that rivalry - these players still traded tickets.
I mean we thought they HATED each other - and they probably did.

I would have expected stories like 'yeah Isiah asked for a coupe of my tickets to a game at the Stadium and I burned them instead or told him to kick rocks'

But no, there was still some exchanges like this happening.

Little things like this are why I watch.....


The Phil Jackson Puerto Rico stint was awesome. I want a 30 for 30 on that.
The Phil Jackson baby photo

[Big Pippen]

Phil has always moved kind of weirdly, but the Puerto Rican footage looked like he was a wooden puppet.

[MrSparkle]

Phil has always moved kind of weirdly, but the Puerto Rican footage looked like he was a wooden puppet.

I think his hips and knees were (already) really messed up at that point. I imagine he got some surgeries afterwards when he got to coaching in the NBA. (Assuming the health care was a bit better for the 90s Bulls than the PR league.)

[prolific passer]

I remember John Salley saying many years ago that he read both Jackson's and Rodman's books and that they were pretty identical.

[TheStig]

I don't think Krause was bad at drafting at all. He had misses but so did everyone. He had a lot of really good drafts too. I think your criticism is that he didn't draft well in the late 1st. Which most teams don't do.

Krause's draft record that is good:
Pippen - All time great pick
Kukoc - Great pick
Oakley - Good pick
Brand - Good pick
Artest - Good pick but didn't pan out for Chicago
Crawford - Good pick but didn't pan out for Chicago
---
Grant - Reportedly, he wanted someone else and was overruled when the coaching staff personally lobbied JR after Krause screwed up the previous draft against the coaching staffs swishes.

For the length of time he was there, that's pretty lousy, but the Pippen and Kukoc picks were so good it's like putting 10k into Amazon when it first stated and also putting 10k into 10 loser stocks. IT wouldn't matter because Amazon by itself went up by a factor of 200 or so.

In his rebuild, he just caught some really bad breaks like 2000 draft being an all time worst draft, Jay Williams accident and Eddy Curry having absolutely no work ethic. If he had caught an 03 or 96 draft, I think things could have worked out differently for him.

Hard to blame him for bad luck. He got Brand in 99 which was a good building block. In 2000, he passed on Mike Miller for Marcus Fizer despite Fizer being an awful fit (Miller was the next selection). He evaluated Tyson Chandler as a better player than Brand which was probably a bad choice and could have taken Pau Gasol instead (next selection) if he was going to make such a trade. Took Eddy Curry where Jason Richardson and Shane Battier were the next two selections (Joe Johnson was 6 slots later).

He maybe got screwed on the Jay Williams accident. Jay Williams had a pretty awful year, but a lot of point guards take a year to develop before playing well, and we never got to see. History doesn't have any other studs in the same draft area, and we would have rioted if we didn't take Williams.

Maybe the worst thing he ever did was make a bunch of "win now" trades in 2002 right before the absolutely loaded 2003 draft. A year of tanking in 2002 and the Bulls are 2 slots higher, and we are rebuilding with Dwyane Wade, not that that's really here nor there in terms of his drafting ability. It's just ironic that if Krause had been able to hold out on his tanking plan for 1 more year then he woudl have likely landed his star.

WIn now trades are not part of the draft record. And most of those drafts were bad. The 2000 draft was the worst of all time and he had a lot of draft equity in it. He nailed the 1999 draft and it still didn't deliver a real star. Brand is not a guy you build your franchise around and Artest was crazy. In 2000, Mike Miller was the only top pick who developed into a role player. I think it's hard to pass on Curry and Chandler in 01, Gasol is hindsight. And in 02, he made the right pick but he got on a bike.

It would have been interesting to see what Krause would have done if he got to stay the course and gotten to draft in 03. He was good at getting extra lotto picks and would have actually been in a draft with legit star talent.

I strongly think that JR pushed his hand with these win now trades. I remember rumors that Krause was pushed into it. Krause was always the guy who went for more draft capital, not trading young talent for mediocre guys.

[RedBulls23]

We had on David Prince from Sports Mockery to talk about the last dance. Also talked about the hiring of Marc Eversley.

Apple: https://apple.co/35cwDBZ
Spotify: https://spoti.fi/2zBUb7w

[dougthonus]

WIn now trades are not part of the draft record.

Hence why I literally said it wasn't here nor there about his drafting record, just ironic.

And most of those drafts were bad.

Agreed, but in 2000 the next pick was the best pick. In 2001, the next pick was the best pick with both his selections.

He nailed the 1999 draft and it still didn't deliver a real star. Brand is not a guy you build your franchise around and Artest was crazy. In 2000, Mike Miller was the only top pick who developed into a role player. I think it's hard to pass on Curry and Chandler in 01, Gasol is hindsight. And in 02, he made the right pick but he got on a bike.

Someone else didn't pass on Gasol. It was literally his job to figure that out. It wasn't like Gasol went 50. He was the #3 pick. I didn't stretch this to say "Did Krause pick the best guy in the draft", I only argued about whether he got the best pick in his draft area. At #4, #2, and #4 in 2000/2001, the pick right after his choice was much better each time.

Is it the worst performance? Probably not, but it definitely isn't good performance.

A good drafter wouldn't miss the best reasonable pick by one selection in three straight high lottery picks.

Those "better picks" weren't going to win a title. If the Bulls had rebuilt with Gasol, Richardson, Mike Miller, and Ron Artest then I don't know where that team is going, but it would have probably been a 1st round playoff team. The ultimate opportunity lost wasn't huge, but when looking at him as a talent evaluator he did very poorly in the rebuild.

[Big Pippen]

Pistons Thoughts:

It is almost unfathomable how far the NBA has shifted in regards to officiating, fear of fighting, and physicality in 29 years. Jordan and Pippen were getting bodied, hand checked, grabbed on every offensive possession. Not to mention shoved every time they left the ground. Fast forward to the last decade, and its almost an entirely different sport. I don't think this necessarily diminishes the accomplishments of modern era players (LeBron, Harden, Curry) but it absolutely should make the scoring stats of guys like Bird, MJ, Pippen, etc that much more impressive (in light of what defenders got away with).

I won't make a case that the Pistons' accomplishments aren't noteworthy, they were after all, good enough to beat Bird's Celtics, Magic's Lakers, and MJ's Bulls. But its hard to watch Isaiah and Laimbeer talk about how great they were, when so much of their success was grabbing, clutching, fouling, hurting others, etc. "Bad Boys" is kind of a fun identity, but its also a subtle admission that they were not as good as their opponents and had to test the boundaries of what the league would allow, in order to win at that high of a level. I will say, that Dumars and Rodman were criminally underrated.

History has shown that most of those Detroit guys (Daly, Salley, Edwards, Rodman) were willing to do whatever it took to win, but deep down were decent guys that understood even things like ultra competitiveness and the bad boys persona has a time and a place. But Isaiah and Lambier were just, total ass holes, in any time or place.

[TheStig]

WIn now trades are not part of the draft record.

Hence why I literally said it wasn't here nor there about his drafting record, just ironic.

And most of those drafts were bad.

Agreed, but in 2000 the next pick was the best pick. In 2001, the next pick was the best pick with both his selections.

He nailed the 1999 draft and it still didn't deliver a real star. Brand is not a guy you build your franchise around and Artest was crazy. In 2000, Mike Miller was the only top pick who developed into a role player. I think it's hard to pass on Curry and Chandler in 01, Gasol is hindsight. And in 02, he made the right pick but he got on a bike.

Someone else didn't pass on Gasol. It was literally his job to figure that out. It wasn't like Gasol went 50. He was the #3 pick. I didn't stretch this to say "Did Krause pick the best guy in the draft", I only argued about whether he got the best pick in his draft area. At #4, #2, and #4 in 2000/2001, the pick right after his choice was much better each time.

Is it the worst performance? Probably not, but it definitely isn't good performance.

A good drafter wouldn't miss the best reasonable pick by one selection in three straight high lottery picks.

Those "better picks" weren't going to win a title. If the Bulls had rebuilt with Gasol, Richardson, Mike Miller, and Ron Artest then I don't know where that team is going, but it would have probably been a 1st round playoff team. The ultimate opportunity lost wasn't huge, but when looking at him as a talent evaluator he did very poorly in the rebuild.

But GM's don't nail every pick. Those were all really hard to peg drafts. Like you said, no one came out with a drastically better player outside of Gasol. And even then Chandler developed into a DPOY championship center. Gasol was better but Chandler was still really good. Just not a scorer.

I was really bummed about Curry though. If he had any sort of work ethic, he could have been great. I'm surprised Scott Skiles didn't run him all day in every practice with a big mac on a string in front of him. As you can tell, I'm still not over Eddy Curry's laziness. So it's hard to say Jason Richardson was better. And Richardson was just filled with soooo many empty stats. Curry just had sooooo much talent and touch.

I think the rebuild would have been drastically different if it started a couple years sooner or later. If he had hit his multiple picks years in 96 or 03, I think we'd have had a different opinion about him.

[prolific passer]

WIn now trades are not part of the draft record.

Hence why I literally said it wasn't here nor there about his drafting record, just ironic.

And most of those drafts were bad.

Agreed, but in 2000 the next pick was the best pick. In 2001, the next pick was the best pick with both his selections.

He nailed the 1999 draft and it still didn't deliver a real star. Brand is not a guy you build your franchise around and Artest was crazy. In 2000, Mike Miller was the only top pick who developed into a role player. I think it's hard to pass on Curry and Chandler in 01, Gasol is hindsight. And in 02, he made the right pick but he got on a bike.

Someone else didn't pass on Gasol. It was literally his job to figure that out. It wasn't like Gasol went 50. He was the #3 pick. I didn't stretch this to say "Did Krause pick the best guy in the draft", I only argued about whether he got the best pick in his draft area. At #4, #2, and #4 in 2000/2001, the pick right after his choice was much better each time.

Is it the worst performance? Probably not, but it definitely isn't good performance.

A good drafter wouldn't miss the best reasonable pick by one selection in three straight high lottery picks.

Those "better picks" weren't going to win a title. If the Bulls had rebuilt with Gasol, Richardson, Mike Miller, and Ron Artest then I don't know where that team is going, but it would have probably been a 1st round playoff team. The ultimate opportunity lost wasn't huge, but when looking at him as a talent evaluator he did very poorly in the rebuild.

But GM's don't nail every pick. Those were all really hard to peg drafts. Like you said, no one came out with a drastically better player outside of Gasol. And even then Chandler developed into a DPOY championship center. Gasol was better but Chandler was still really good. Just not a scorer.

I was really bummed about Curry though. If he had any sort of work ethic, he could have been great. I'm surprised Scott Skiles didn't run him all day in every practice with a big mac on a string in front of him. As you can tell, I'm still not over Eddy Curry's laziness. So it's hard to say Jason Richardson was better. And Richardson was just filled with soooo many empty stats. Curry just had sooooo much talent and touch.

I think the rebuild would have been drastically different if it started a couple years sooner or later. If he had hit his multiple picks years in 96 or 03, I think we'd have had a different opinion about him.

I think 95 hurts more than anything passing up on a hometown allstar in Finley.

[dougthonus]

But GM's don't nail every pick. Those were all really hard to peg drafts. Like you said, no one came out with a drastically better player outside of Gasol. And even then Chandler developed into a DPOY championship center. Gasol was better but Chandler was still really good. Just not a scorer.

It's a stretch to say "He's a good drafter" then use that argument. I believe I listed all of his good picks. I don't know if you think I missed one, but it's probably like 5-6 picks out of 30+ 1st rounders with one hit in the second round. It's not a great track record.

As I said, his successful picks were super successful and franchise altering, but with so many misses, even those successes just seem like dumb luck given the number of attempts.

I was really bummed about Curry though. If he had any sort of work ethic, he could have been great. I'm surprised Scott Skiles didn't run him all day in every practice with a big mac on a string in front of him. As you can tell, I'm still not over Eddy Curry's laziness. So it's hard to say Jason Richardson was better. And Richardson was just filled with soooo many empty stats. Curry just had sooooo much talent and touch.

Kind of odd that you'd think Richardson was empty stats and were excited about Curry as not empty stats. Curry really hard no skill outside of ISO post moves, no defense, no rebounding, no passing, no ball handling. He was probably born a decade too late to be an NBA player.

I think the rebuild would have been drastically different if it started a couple years sooner or later. If he had hit his multiple picks years in 96 or 03, I think we'd have had a different opinion about him.

My opinion wouldn't change a whole lot one way or the other. I don't give anyone credit for drafting the best player when it's obvious.

[madvillian]

Just chiming in and adding it's been a lot of fun through the first half or so of the series. It's heavily biased in favor of MJ and Phil and JR but it was always going to be that way.

Don't have much to add that hasn't already been said but:

does anybody else think Kerr still holds a grudge against Michael? I got the feeling that Kerr doesn't like Jordan at all and in fact might consider himself a bit "above" MJ as a basketball mind now that he's a successful coach.

Not that I really care either way what Kerr and Jordan's relationship is like I just found it interesting.

[dougthonus]

does anybody else think Kerr still holds a grudge against Michael? I got the feeling that Kerr doesn't like Jordan at all and in fact might consider himself a bit "above" MJ as a basketball mind now that he's a successful coach.

I don't think it's any stretch to think that Kerr is a better coach than MJ would be if he got out the clipboard or that Kerr might make a better GM as well. I don't think that's really relevant or important though. Being the best basketball player ever doesn't mean you're the best at everything related to a basketball ever, but being the best basketball player is about 1000x more important than being a great coach.

[madvillian]

does anybody else think Kerr still holds a grudge against Michael? I got the feeling that Kerr doesn't like Jordan at all and in fact might consider himself a bit "above" MJ as a basketball mind now that he's a successful coach.

I don't think it's any stretch to think that Kerr is a better coach than MJ would be if he got out the clipboard or that Kerr might make a better GM as well. I don't think that's really relevant or important though. Being the best basketball player ever doesn't mean you're the best at everything related to a basketball ever, but being the best basketball player is about 1000x more important than being a great coach.

Agree, I think there is some jealousy on both sides honestly. Jordan is that insecure despite everything. But that's probably what makes him either 1A or 1B for GOAT.

[GetBuLLish]

does anybody else think Kerr still holds a grudge against Michael? I got the feeling that Kerr doesn't like Jordan at all and in fact might consider himself a bit "above" MJ as a basketball mind now that he's a successful coach.

I don't think it's any stretch to think that Kerr is a better coach than MJ would be if he got out the clipboard or that Kerr might make a better GM as well. I don't think that's really relevant or important though. Being the best basketball player ever doesn't mean you're the best at everything related to a basketball ever, but being the best basketball player is about 1000x more important than being a great coach.

Agree, I think there is some jealousy on both sides honestly. Jordan is that insecure despite everything. But that's probably what makes him either 1A or 1B for GOAT.

Not sure where you're getting this idea that Kerr has animosity towards MJ...

"It's almost impossible to describe the impact he made on the league itself," Kerr said during a Thursday appearance on Waddle & Silvy on ESPN 1000 in Chicago. "So it's easier for me to describe the impact he had on my career alone. Because had I never played with Michael, honestly, I don't think I would have been offered a contract by the Spurs and wouldn't have had my run with San Antonio. Wouldn't have been offered a contract with TNT to go into broadcasting. I could argue that all those things were sort of a domino effect and ultimately coaching the Warriors -- everything that I've been able to enjoy and experience in the NBA was a direct result of playing with Michael Jordan. And I'm not being falsely modest -- it's just the truth."

"Those teams were legendary, and to be a part of those teams and to play with Michael gave me and everybody on that team a chance to put themselves in a position to win championships and be part of something special," Kerr said. "And it's affected our lives even to this day. So [former Bulls forward] Jud [Buechler] and I say it all the time, when we do run into Michael, we just give him a little 'Thank you,' or maybe we're toasting at dinner or something, we hold up a beer and just [say], 'Thanks, Michael.' And we just laugh because he's responsible for a lot of this."

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/28928734/steve-kerr-michael-jordan-1995-return-thank-you

[madvillian]

Had not heard that interview with Kerr. It's certainly the right attitude being on that team propelled quite a few role players into the spotlight and into careers in the NBA after they retired, including Pax, BJ, Kerr and Wennington.