2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th: PT 2

[GimmeDat]

These teams are bringing on guys from the high school analyst scene because of the 1 and done rule going. They're realizing the importance of the pre-college sample.

I don't really have much evidence, but the Bulls organization as a whole just seems one step behind on everything. We have fewer scouts, fewer FO staff, fewer assistant coaches, FFS we had fewer monitors on guys desks according to insiders.
It's not only our roster that needs a lot of work.

That's why we have a new FO who is focused on player development. A house starts by properly laying the foundation.

Yeah I'm optimistic about this new group. The changes (finally) have been pretty comprehensive, and obviously we're not done. Let's reset our judgements on front office.

[sco]

Denzel Valentine will be 27 in 2 months.

Half his career he has been injured.

Pretty much given up all hope he can be anything decent in the NBA.

What are you talking about like blaming Lauri when Boylen ruined their careers?
He hasnt been healthy but thats good for the Bulls bc they can probably snag him for Arci type 3 yr deal.
He put up 10/5/3 last season on 39% 3 makes and this season per 36min he was 18/5 on 2 steals. Thats way better than Shaq and Arci combined and better than Dunn who is gleague garbage on offense.
I dont expect him to put up numbers but honestly my eye test has made me believe Valentine is a better impact than Lavine and actually makes the team function like a average NBA offense team. For counting stats, he just has to put up 13/5/5 which is not hard for a guy of his skill. I dont understand why people keep bringing up age when every team needs a key rotation player.

Really dude?? Denzel Valentine?

Valentine came to the Bulls as a skilled playmaker and developed a good 3pt shot when Hoiberg worked with him. His problem has always been that he lacked the footspeed to be an average defender. I will say that he has shown to be a willing defender, just too slow. I had always hoped that he would get in good shape after the surgery on his ankle, but it didn't happen.

If we don't draft a wing, I'd be ok keeping him on a vet min deal. If I had to choose between him, Shaq and Dunn, I would choose Shaq, who I think adds more value as a defender with offensive upside.

[JohnnyKILLroy]

Pro-Valentine? FACEPALM

[Jvaughn]

What are you talking about like blaming Lauri when Boylen ruined their careers?
He hasnt been healthy but thats good for the Bulls bc they can probably snag him for Arci type 3 yr deal.
He put up 10/5/3 last season on 39% 3 makes and this season per 36min he was 18/5 on 2 steals. Thats way better than Shaq and Arci combined and better than Dunn who is gleague garbage on offense.
I dont expect him to put up numbers but honestly my eye test has made me believe Valentine is a better impact than Lavine and actually makes the team function like a average NBA offense team. For counting stats, he just has to put up 13/5/5 which is not hard for a guy of his skill. I dont understand why people keep bringing up age when every team needs a key rotation player.

Really dude?? Denzel Valentine?

Valentine came to the Bulls as a skilled playmaker and developed a good 3pt shot when Hoiberg worked with him. His problem has always been that he lacked the footspeed to be an average defender. I will say that he has shown to be a willing defender, just too slow. I had always hoped that he would get in good shape after the surgery on his ankle, but it didn't happen.

If we don't draft a wing, I'd be ok keeping him on a vet min deal. If I had to choose between him, Shaq and Dunn, I would choose Shaq, who I think adds more value as a defender with offensive upside.

Yeah his lack of foot speed and over athleticism is and will always be what prevents him from being a big minute player. On the defensive side, he can't keep up with perimeter players and isn't strong enough or large enough to defend in the paint. Offensively his lack of athleticism hurts him because he is utterly incapable of getting to the paint and finishing at the basket. It's the reason he's forced to shoot those long floaters (which at times has been effective).

I'd have no problem keeping him as a vet min, due to his specialty in shooting, but in no way is he as impactful as Zach Lavine.

[Magic beans]

What are you talking about like blaming Lauri when Boylen ruined their careers?
He hasnt been healthy but thats good for the Bulls bc they can probably snag him for Arci type 3 yr deal.
He put up 10/5/3 last season on 39% 3 makes and this season per 36min he was 18/5 on 2 steals. Thats way better than Shaq and Arci combined and better than Dunn who is gleague garbage on offense.
I dont expect him to put up numbers but honestly my eye test has made me believe Valentine is a better impact than Lavine and actually makes the team function like a average NBA offense team. For counting stats, he just has to put up 13/5/5 which is not hard for a guy of his skill. I dont understand why people keep bringing up age when every team needs a key rotation player.

Really dude?? Denzel Valentine?

Valentine came to the Bulls as a skilled playmaker and developed a good 3pt shot when Hoiberg worked with him. His problem has always been that he lacked the footspeed to be an average defender. I will say that he has shown to be a willing defender, just too slow. I had always hoped that he would get in good shape after the surgery on his ankle, but it didn't happen.

If we don't draft a wing, I'd be ok keeping him on a vet min deal. If I had to choose between him, Shaq and Dunn, I would choose Shaq, who I think adds more value as a defender with offensive upside.

While I’m of the opinion that Valentine has suffered bad luck regarding his injury history, I see no positive in keeping him apart from his perimeter threat. Decent percentage. Far too one dimensional skill set. Out of the three I would also go with Shaq as I see him as the far superior defender and has a higher level of versatility than Dunn.

Would love to be in a position where Shaq could get his offensive game developed.

[drosereturn]

Really dude?? Denzel Valentine?

Valentine came to the Bulls as a skilled playmaker and developed a good 3pt shot when Hoiberg worked with him. His problem has always been that he lacked the footspeed to be an average defender. I will say that he has shown to be a willing defender, just too slow. I had always hoped that he would get in good shape after the surgery on his ankle, but it didn't happen.

If we don't draft a wing, I'd be ok keeping him on a vet min deal. If I had to choose between him, Shaq and Dunn, I would choose Shaq, who I think adds more value as a defender with offensive upside.

While I’m of the opinion that Valentine has suffered bad luck regarding his injury history, I see no positive in keeping him apart from his perimeter threat. Decent percentage. Far too one dimensional skill set. Out of the three I would also go with Shaq as I see him as the far superior defender and has a higher level of versatility than Dunn.

Would love to be in a position where Shaq could get his offensive game developed.

So let me ask you this. Do you think its easier for Val to regain his form or shaq suddenly shooting like marcus Smart? If shaq was under 25 it would be a no brainer but this guys done and has no play making skills. Because Lavine and White are tunnel visioned you need to start Val at the point if Sato doesnt work out and White be the 6th man.

Like Val can just start 25min just for the sake of developing bigs and maintain an avg offense. As soon as you put Dunn, shaq the entire lineup collapses. If you hate Val, sure just give Sato and Val 25min each I dont even care but seemed like Sato collapsed. Play making wise, these guys are decent enough to not use another pick on another pg. They already have a billion pg they need to trade for a upgrade. Anyway, a lineup of Val Lavine Dunn/Sato Porter Lauri is the main lineup I want to see it could easily have a plus 5 rating. They have talent but they need to use a very specific lineup for the sake of balancing and fit. If you put like shaq and Dunn or Lavine and White together it will be unwatchable.

[MrSparkle]

I think instead of dumping $1m reserve guards who can serve a niche role, I'd rather clear Felicio (waive) and Kornet (trade). Two roster spots wasted... it's preposterous. Wendell, Gafford, Lauri, Thad... possibly another big coming in with that 2nd round pick (maybe #4)... Felicio and Kornet are completely useless. I'd just eat the salaries and open the spots.

The back-court does need to be slimmed, but I expect Dunn will walk, Sato is pushed back in the rotation, and Zach might play more SF.

Shaq is good because unlike Dunn, he doesn't even attempt to play-make. He focuses 110% on defense, which is great when you have guys like Coby, Zach and even Valentine. Shaq attacks the rim and his 3P% is kind of a mystery because he's had a pretty low sample size. When he actually played a full-time role the last week before shutdown, he had 2 great shooting games (crazy 5/6 3Ps against Indy) and 2 poorer shooting nights, but that whole stretch his defense was insane. Steals and rebounds galore in every game. I think he's a keeper. Hate making this mistake of picking up energetic wings who help (Nwaba) and letting them go. Shaq is "short" but he actually has that Bradley/Smart thing going on where he looks fine against taller players.

IMO Boyzo should've played Coby and Shaq in the starting line-up from January on (move Dunn/Sato to the bench).

[MrFortune3]

I don't really have much evidence, but the Bulls organization as a whole just seems one step behind on everything. We have fewer scouts, fewer FO staff, fewer assistant coaches, FFS we had fewer monitors on guys desks according to insiders.
It's not only our roster that needs a lot of work.

That's why we have a new FO who is focused on player development. A house starts by properly laying the foundation.

Yeah I'm optimistic about this new group. The changes (finally) have been pretty comprehensive, and obviously we're not done. Let's reset our judgements on front office.

As am I. I have said it before but I believe AK and Evs will have the Bulls as a mixture of the Raps and Nuggets. Highly skilled, two way players, a set culture and team philosophy.

[Jvaughn]

Valentine came to the Bulls as a skilled playmaker and developed a good 3pt shot when Hoiberg worked with him. His problem has always been that he lacked the footspeed to be an average defender. I will say that he has shown to be a willing defender, just too slow. I had always hoped that he would get in good shape after the surgery on his ankle, but it didn't happen.

If we don't draft a wing, I'd be ok keeping him on a vet min deal. If I had to choose between him, Shaq and Dunn, I would choose Shaq, who I think adds more value as a defender with offensive upside.

While I’m of the opinion that Valentine has suffered bad luck regarding his injury history, I see no positive in keeping him apart from his perimeter threat. Decent percentage. Far too one dimensional skill set. Out of the three I would also go with Shaq as I see him as the far superior defender and has a higher level of versatility than Dunn.

Would love to be in a position where Shaq could get his offensive game developed.

So let me ask you this. Do you think its easier for Val to regain his form or shaq suddenly shooting like marcus Smart? If shaq was under 25 it would be a no brainer but this guys done and has no play making skills. Because Lavine and White are tunnel visioned you need to start Val at the point if Sato doesnt work out and White be the 6th man.

Like Val can just start 25min just for the sake of developing bigs and maintain an avg offense. As soon as you put Dunn, shaq the entire lineup collapses. If you hate Val, sure just give Sato and Val 25min each I dont even care but seemed like Sato collapsed. Play making wise, these guys are decent enough to not use another pick on another pg. They already have a billion pg they need to trade for a upgrade. Anyway, a lineup of Val Lavine Dunn/Sato Porter Lauri is the main lineup I want to see it could easily have a plus 5 rating. They have talent but they need to use a very specific lineup for the sake of balancing and fit. If you put like shaq and Dunn or Lavine and White together it will be unwatchable.

If we're going off this year alone, Shaq I'd better than Valentine in almost every statistical category. And while I understand Valentine is a better shooter, he doesn't offer enough elsewhere to make him out to be worlds better than Shaq. They're both roughly the same age, and limited as far as growth. Difference being that I'd put more stock in Shaq improving his 3pt shooting than I would in Denzel magically just not bring injury prone all of a sudden.

[MrFortune3]

Valentine was always going to be a interesting fit in the NBA. His skills are not enough to compensate for his athletic limitations.
I hated the pick at the time but I expected because the Bulls love experienced college players from winning programs under Paxson and even under Gar.
He fit the profile.

I don't suspect that he will have a long NBA career unless he finds a niche as a shooter off the bench with a defined role on a team.

[sco]

I'll say that I am still of the opinion that we underestimate the impact that injuries had on the development guys like Valentine, Lauri, WCj, Dunn and Hutch. I am optimistic that a healthy season next season will have all of those guys move significantly along the developmental curve.

[ChettheJet]

The draft starts at 2 with Golden State. The T-Wolves are pretty much gonna pick Edwards at #1. He fills a need at the wing AND he has arguably the ceiling in the draft. Barring some Anthony Bennett type of night.

It all depends if the Warriors trade down for a player they like the most or out completely for some help that can produce right now. Maybe for a player that's still on a rookie scale contract like John Collins, or maybe some glue guys like Covington, or maybe an all star caliber player like Beal.

But I can't see any higher caliber player like Beal or Simmons being dealt because Wiggins will most likely be involved so salaries can match. Wiggins is Wiggins but it depends how much those teams value the picks that will be involved alongside Wiggins.

I wouldn't be surprised to see Golden State combine their 17.2 Million TPE and #2 pick to get a solid player and move back into the early teens.

To me I can see GSW trading out of the 1st round not bothering with down, maybe to a 2021 or 22 pick. They have either really large contracts or minimum deals which fits the 2-4 year championship window they're in. They don't have the minutes to give a rookie to develop so they're best move is to wait until the end of their window to have the picks to bring them in.

With their TPE and if they intend to move Wiggins they don't need to match value today when part of their return is for a delayed payoff. I wish I could see a way the Bulls had what they wanted and could get #2 even if it meant taking Wiggins. Then I'd like the Bulls to be able to trade #2 and somebody, get a couple of players and move down to #6-10 because what the Bulls need to add is very different from what GSW are looking for so they can make a very different trade with different teams for #2.

[Magic beans]

While I’m of the opinion that Valentine has suffered bad luck regarding his injury history, I see no positive in keeping him apart from his perimeter threat. Decent percentage. Far too one dimensional skill set. Out of the three I would also go with Shaq as I see him as the far superior defender and has a higher level of versatility than Dunn.

Would love to be in a position where Shaq could get his offensive game developed.

So let me ask you this. Do you think its easier for Val to regain his form or shaq suddenly shooting like marcus Smart? If shaq was under 25 it would be a no brainer but this guys done and has no play making skills. Because Lavine and White are tunnel visioned you need to start Val at the point if Sato doesnt work out and White be the 6th man.

Like Val can just start 25min just for the sake of developing bigs and maintain an avg offense. As soon as you put Dunn, shaq the entire lineup collapses. If you hate Val, sure just give Sato and Val 25min each I dont even care but seemed like Sato collapsed. Play making wise, these guys are decent enough to not use another pick on another pg. They already have a billion pg they need to trade for a upgrade. Anyway, a lineup of Val Lavine Dunn/Sato Porter Lauri is the main lineup I want to see it could easily have a plus 5 rating. They have talent but they need to use a very specific lineup for the sake of balancing and fit. If you put like shaq and Dunn or Lavine and White together it will be unwatchable.

If we're going off this year alone, Shaq I'd better than Valentine in almost every statistical category. And while I understand Valentine is a better shooter, he doesn't offer enough elsewhere to make him out to be worlds better than Shaq. They're both roughly the same age, and limited as far as growth. Difference being that I'd put more stock in Shaq improving his 3pt shooting than I would in Denzel magically just not bring injury prone all of a sudden.

Agree. This was my point - “ more stock in Shaq improving his 3pt shooting than I would in Denzel magically just not bring injury prone” I would also add that due to Valentine lack of athleticism his game is far too one dimensional. No defence.

Regarding Shaq I don’t think playmaking should Ever be part of his responsibilities.

[R3AL1TY]

Valentine has the same issue as Hutchison. They have value as role players, but they can't stay on the court.

[NADROJ]

Denzel Valentine should be a cautionary tale for Denzel Valentine and no one else.

[rtblues]

To those who've somehow become sentimentally attached to various players on this team, prepare yourselves to say goodbye to some of your favorites. AK didn't come here to fall in love with this roster. I really don't think that there is any player on this team that can be considered "safe or un-tradeable". AK is going to begin his process. Yeah, there will be an evaluation period, but look for movement before the trade deadline.

Oh, and enough of the Valentine talk!
Isn't there a "Bust-Picks" thread somewhere?

[BahamaBull]

Pro Val guy here

Maybe our best shooter, passer and playmaker (I know...we suck) but we can get him back for cheap. Val is also a smart player and he will find a way to contribute on a consistent basis for some some team eventually.

I dont think he is a bad pro and players seems to like him.

Just my 2c. But yeah, enough of Denzel here...

[MrSparkle]

To those who've somehow become sentimentally attached to various players on this team, prepare yourselves to say goodbye to some of your favorites. AK didn't come here to fall in love with this roster. I really don't think that there is any player on this team that can be considered "safe or un-tradeable". AK is going to begin his process. Yeah, there will be an evaluation period, but look for movement before the trade deadline.

Oh, and enough of the Valentine talk!
Isn't there a "Bust-Picks" thread somewhere?

I think this is it.

We’ve pointed it out many times over the years: Pax would get too attached to broken rosters. Got too enamored with the “success” of his draft pick (Kirk, Taj) or trade/FA steal (Deng, Noc) instead of concretely considering their ceiling as players and fit.

I look at Denver’s build and it’s clear that “pre-conceived notions” went out the window. Trading Nurkic for Plumlee for example. You’ve got a talented steal of a 1st-rd center and he was shipped for a veteran downgrade, but he made the decision that Nurkic wasn’t the caliber player to meddle with a positional log-jam. Exact same scenario for the Pax Bulls with all the forwards, Pax could never decide which guys to move.

I don’t think you can develop 8 young players at a time, especially when only 1 or 2 at best has fringe star potential, so that’s why I agree there’s gonna be a whole new Bulls team next December.

[MrSparkle]

I don't think GSW can afford to trade out of this draft for next year's. They're not gonna be in a lotto situation for a very long time and there are zero guarantees with a trade-forward (i.e. Deng/Suns/Bulls). IMO they need to either take a high-ceiling guy to develop for "passing the torch" or they need an all-star in return. It's a pretty thin market for stars. If they offer #2, Wiggins and 1-4 future FRPs (depending on the player), I suppose they can try:

Ingram (pretty feasible)
Embiid/Simmons (bad fits, unrealistic)
Beal (bad fit; they need 3D forwards)
Paul George (ha- too soon?)

I still think they're blowing smoke-screens. Just make it easy on themselves and draft Wiseman or Edwards (if MN is crazy enough to skip him). Maybe even LaMelo, make him run unit-2 like Livingston used to do, while Curry sits most 4th Qs.

They don't really need to dump a #2 pick to move Wiggins. He's not complete trash; he's just got a low motor and overpaid. But he does stay healthy, can play 40 mpg with a decent two-way game and room to grow. Personally I think 2 months running with a healthy Curry, Klay and Dray is gonna bump his efficiency and stock in a big way. In the meantime, I feel like they can obtain one of these wings by just sending Wiggins with a small sweetener:

DeRozan
Gallinari (S&T)
Harrison Barnes (would give better positional flexibility at PF)
Hayward (ok BOS wouldn't do this)

I really don't buy that they're looking at trading down for Deni or Onkongwu. When you consider the 2-3 year window it takes for a 19yo to learn the nuances of the NBA game, that's not something GSW can afford to do with a fringe prospect. Their Big 3 are now the Old 3 ala the Duncan Spurs. They need their Kawhi. IMO they go for the highest-ceiling BPA or a 20+ PER vet trade.

[johnfriendly]

Yes, in my view GSW will look to either trade down for an additional asset or trade the pick outright for a starting or rotation vet. Steph and Klay are in their primes. They can’t waste it. They are in Win Now mode. If it works on trade checker, I would trade Lauri, Thad, and Sato for the 2nd pick and Wiggins.