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OT: COVID-19 thread #4

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Re: OT: COVID-19 thread #4 

Post#761 » by dice » Sat Sep 25, 2021 10:35 pm

TheStig wrote:
dougthonus wrote:
TheStig wrote:How do you know it doesn't turn into an annual thing like the flu anyway. They're already administering boosters.


It absolutely might. I suspect it will. You implied Moderna's CEO's comments were self-serving, but the scenario he described wouldn't be, so his comments were not self-serving.

That's of course not necessarily what will actually happen, nor does Moderna's CEO control the outcome of what actually will happen (obviously).

It absolutely is. He's saying by getting the jab, you can defeat covid. Something that hasn't proven true so far. But he is trying to sell his vaccine to the unvaccinated under this premise. It is completely self serving.

indefinite boosters would be self-serving. if his comments help to successfully end COVID it will have benefitted his company in the short run, but...

of course, corporations do tend to be obsessed with the next quarter's profits

feb. 24, 2020 - moderna's share price closed at $18.59

feb 25, 2020 - company announces vials of its vaccine would be shipped to NIAID for more research, 42 days after the virus's sequence had been identified. shares close at $23.76. COVID-19 deaths had not yet hit america

today moderna trades at around $430 a share

pfizer and JNJ share prices haven't benefitted much from the vaccine
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Re: OT: COVID-19 thread #4 

Post#762 » by Almost Retired » Sat Sep 25, 2021 11:51 pm

dice wrote:listen to the actual experts who have been studying this for decades, folks. and your doctors. not nearly retired internet warriors desperately sleuthing ANYTHING that seems to dovetail with their warped worldview. who stumble upon a kernel of truth and think they found a tub of popcorn. because anybody is prone to being misled by people smarter than them with an agenda. particularly when they are eager to be misled. misinformation is a very profitable industry

the right wing has been ALL over the place on the virus. because it's all about what will maximize political division in the moment. we have seen:

-the former president minimize the threat of the virus, refuse to wear a mask, contract it himself and be hospitalized
-the former president taking credit for the production of the vaccine while failing to give full throated support to getting vaccinated
-the former president having supposed immunity due to having been infected, yet still getting vaccinated...but not telling the public
-fox news staff being forced to be vaccinated while railing against vaccine mandates
-large numbers of individuals spouting that masks are a form of government mind control

now breitbart, that bastion of right wing intellectualism, is suggesting that progressives are advocating vaccination in order to kill off conservatives who will reflexively do the opposite:

https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2021/09/18/nolte-anti-vaxxers-hype-benign-transmission-numbers-as-proof-vax-doesnt-work/


Who actually has the agenda, as you call it? The determined minority, willing to buck the overwhelming pressure from the vax proponents even at the risk of careers and livelihoods.....or our benevolent government that uses pressure within academia, big medicine, and big tech to stifle debate on the subject, censor opposing viewpoints, and punish those that wish to swim against the tide. Going along with conventional wisdom on any subject is the easiest path to take. To take the other unpopular side takes determination. With you everything boils down to right vs left, Democrat vs Republican....you have not yet lived long enough to realize there is only one political party, the Uniparty. It is a party of the kleptocracy. Like a bird it has 2 wings. First the left one has control, then the right one has control...things shift at the periphery but the end result is ALWAYS the same. The rich get richer and the poor get poorer and the Middle class pays for all of it. Our standard of living is dropping rapidly now, because the kleptocracy party has now totally abandoned the most basic laws of economics. That you have to produce before you can spend. For money without the production of goods and services leaves too many Dollars chasing too few goods. But don't worry, the government you appear to worship says inflation is only 6%, and it will be temporary. Take that to the food store with you.

Do you ever bother to notice how many of the "public servants" who make to to Washington DC end up multi millionaires within 2 decades on salaries of under $200 K a year? Independent of party. I have equal disdain and hatred for Pelosi as I have for Mitch McConnell. So pardon me if I take anything that emanates from Washington with a jaundiced mistrusting eye. It's because I can't remember the last time the Federal Government told the truth ABOUT ANYTHING, or the last time some big Government policy was actually successful and within budget. But I will agree with you on one thing. One side definitely has an agenda. And I don't trust that side one bit.

So when you respond, if you do, make sure you add your usual snark. I don't know what you do for a living but if Peppermint Patty ever goes back to her old job as a paid shill for groups like the Israeli Secret Service maybe you could replace her as the spokesperson for President "Depends". You could translate his rather poor attempts at reading the teleprompter.
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Re: OT: COVID-19 thread #4 

Post#763 » by dice » Sun Sep 26, 2021 1:18 am

Almost Retired wrote:
dice wrote:listen to the actual experts who have been studying this for decades, folks. and your doctors. not nearly retired internet warriors desperately sleuthing ANYTHING that seems to dovetail with their warped worldview. who stumble upon a kernel of truth and think they found a tub of popcorn. because anybody is prone to being misled by people smarter than them with an agenda. particularly when they are eager to be misled. misinformation is a very profitable industry

the right wing has been ALL over the place on the virus. because it's all about what will maximize political division in the moment. we have seen:

-the former president minimize the threat of the virus, refuse to wear a mask, contract it himself and be hospitalized
-the former president taking credit for the production of the vaccine while failing to give full throated support to getting vaccinated
-the former president having supposed immunity due to having been infected, yet still getting vaccinated...but not telling the public
-fox news staff being forced to be vaccinated while railing against vaccine mandates
-large numbers of individuals spouting that masks are a form of government mind control

now breitbart, that bastion of right wing intellectualism, is suggesting that progressives are advocating vaccination in order to kill off conservatives who will reflexively do the opposite:

https://www.breitbart.com/politics/2021/09/18/nolte-anti-vaxxers-hype-benign-transmission-numbers-as-proof-vax-doesnt-work/


Who actually has the agenda, as you call it? The determined minority, willing to buck the overwhelming pressure from the vax proponents even at the risk of careers and livelihoods

much of the "determined minority" are being manipulated for political and financial gain. it's tremendously obvious

.....or our benevolent government that uses pressure within academia, big medicine, and big tech to stifle debate on the subject, censor opposing viewpoints, and punish those that wish to swim against the tide.

the united states government, the most powerful in the world, has done next to nothing to punish people who object to the scientific consensus. certainly far less than many nations. not even a national lockdown! only a year and a half into a once in a century, catastrophic pandemic have they required vaccination OR weekly testing...for federal government employees/contractors only. your rationale is severely lacking. if you consider weekly COVID testing a major imposition, i don't know what to tell you

certain states and many private companies (who the right wing almost never wants to interfere with) are the ones who have been more forceful. and still most do not require vaccination

Going along with conventional wisdom on any subject is the easiest path to take.

it's not conventional wisdom. it's the vast majority of the ****ing scientific community. there is nothing conventional about what we're going through right now. it's a once in a century novel virus

you have not yet lived long enough to realize there is only one political party, the Uniparty. It is a party of the kleptocracy

jesus h christ. do you even pay attention to politics? biden and the democrats already passed one major piece of tranformational legislation benefitting tens of millions of lower and middle class americans, sharply reducing child poverty and helping countless families avoid evictions during a pandemic. they are working on another. obama passed a third. all faced unanimous opposition from the birther party...which, if you'll recall, recently FOMENTED AN INSURRECTION ON THE CAPITAL OF THE NATION!

you apparently have invested an awful lot of time and energy trying to convince yourself of utterly ridiculous theories promoted solely by the right wing. you've spouted them here. only one political party subscribes to them. so don't now try and pretend that you aren't heavily politically influenced in your thinking

First the left one has control, then the right one has control

and this is the problem. when a country is divided, the populace is generally ignorant about politics, easily manipulated and lacks patience/attention span, power tends to ebb and flow and progress is slow. then, of course, there are our anti-democratic institutions and laws: the senate, the filibuster, gerrymandering and the electoral college. when the minority has grossly disproportionate power and doesn't want broad change it's a recipe for stagnance and political apathy

things shift at the periphery but the end result is ALWAYS the same. The rich get richer and the poor get poorer and the Middle class pays for all of it.

obamacare made things better for the poor and middle class. objectively. just not nearly enough. and it wasn't much better strictly because of the absolutely dreadful existences of both the filibuster and the senate itself. and before you or anyone else suggests that the senate was created due to the wisdom of the founding fathers, that's baloney. it, like the electoral college, was an ill-considered political compromise agreed to in order to entice smaller states to sign on. had they known how grossly disproportionate the state populations would become (with most of the smaller states being on the side of one major political party), i can't imagine this ridiculous system would've come to pass

the wealthy/corporations get a tax cut every time republicans are in power and a tax hike most of the time democrats are in power

one side supports unions (though not to the degree they used to), while the other does everything in its power to legislate away the freedom to collectively bargain. THIS is the main reason that the middle class has been stagnant for over 40 years: the decline in union membership. it could not be more clear:

Image

the golden age of unions was from the mid-'30s to the mid-'40s. since then, all that rapid progress has been swept away. it took 75 years, but here we are. and note the steep decline beginning in the late '70s. the start of the era of american middle class stagnancy. it's not a coincidence

seems to me, if you're genuinely interested in the plight of the poor, concerned about the middle class, and disdainful of the wealth of the wealthy, the political choice is obvious

Our standard of living is dropping rapidly now

that's simply false. stagnance is not regression. but when the middle class remains stagnant while the national wealth soars...for DECADES...that's a big problem

...the most basic laws of economics. That you have to produce before you can spend. For money without the production of goods and services leaves too many Dollars chasing too few goods.

none of this applies to federal spending. the united states government is perfectly capable of running a permanent deficit. doesn't mean it's optimal (it surely isn't). the question is how large it can get as a percentage of GDP before it starts causing real damage. that's not something we want to find out. but if the US government credit ratings are any indication, we're not nearly there yet:

AA+ S&P
Aaa Moody's (their highest)
AAA Fitch (ditto)
AAA DBRS (ditto)

But don't worry, the government you appear to worship says inflation is only 6%, and it will be temporary. Take that to the food store with you.

first of all, i'm not sure why you've chosen to fabricate this idea that i worship the government. totally disingenuous debate tactic

secondly, food prices are not the only thing that people purchase. the pandemic has flattened the previously soaring housing rental market, for example. and rent is a far bigger expenditure than food, as i think you'll agree. but i haven't noticed a significant change in food prices either. it's the energy sector that's the main culprit. noticed gas prices lately? can't really blame biden or the dastardly dems for that, can ya?

finally, the chances of us bringing down inflation is linked to getting out of the freaking pandemic!

Do you ever bother to notice how many of the "public servants" who make to to Washington DC end up multi millionaires within 2 decades on salaries of under $200 K a year?

because most of them are either wealthy coming into office and/or become lobbyists after. the latter should be illegal, but the birther party in particular would like it to continue. we currently have a huge number of right wing congresspeople who seem completely uninterested in legislation and entirely interested in self-promotion

Independent of party. I have equal disdain and hatred for Pelosi as I have for Mitch McConnell. So pardon me if I take anything that emanates from Washington with a jaundiced mistrusting eye. It's because I can't remember the last time the Federal Government told the truth ABOUT ANYTHING

they're doing so right now. about a once in a century pandemic. best pay attention

or the last time some big Government policy was actually successful and within budget

successful and within budget:

obamacare has accomplished exactly what it intended to, cutting the uninsured rate nearly in half, eliminating pre-existing conditions restrictions, setting minimum insurance standards, and helping tens of millions with their premiums...without adding to the deficit.

successful, UNnecessary and NOT within budget:

trump's tax cuts also had their desired effects...lining the pockets of the wealthy...while exploding the deficit

successful, necessary and NOT within budget:

pandemic relief. hugely beneficial for tens of millions of people, though that too has added to the deficit...necessarily

So when you respond, if you do, make sure you add your usual snark. I don't know what you do for a living but if Peppermint Patty ever goes back to her old job as a paid shill for groups like the Israeli Secret Service maybe you could replace her as the spokesperson for President "Depends". You could translate his rather poor attempts at reading the teleprompter.

your parroting of right wing talking points about biden are yet more evidence that you're in the tank for a particular political party despite your feeble assertations that both parties are the same. totally transparent

go back to election prognostications. incredibly, you were better at that
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Re: OT: COVID-19 thread #4 

Post#764 » by LateNight » Sun Sep 26, 2021 1:56 am

“I hate the government so I’m going to risk dying of covid” is one of the dumbest positions ever.
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Re: OT: COVID-19 thread #4 

Post#765 » by samwana » Sun Sep 26, 2021 10:10 am

LateNight wrote:“I hate the government so I’m going to risk dying of covid” is one of the dumbest positions ever.
the actual risk of dying of covid for healthy people is not very high. and so it is everyone's personal decision what to do or what not to do. it's got nothing to do with hating the government.

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Re: OT: COVID-19 thread #4 

Post#766 » by dougthonus » Sun Sep 26, 2021 11:50 am

TheStig wrote:It absolutely is. He's saying by getting the jab, you can defeat covid. Something that hasn't proven true so far. But he is trying to sell his vaccine to the unvaccinated under this premise. It is completely self serving.

What's he going to say? Go get the shot, covid will still be around forever..... hardly a great way to sell vaccines. He has to sell vaccines as the solution.


Gotcha, I disagree with your view of vaccines and how they will help, but I understand where you are coming from now.
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Re: OT: COVID-19 thread #4 

Post#767 » by dougthonus » Sun Sep 26, 2021 11:53 am

dice wrote:
TheStig wrote:
dougthonus wrote:
It absolutely might. I suspect it will. You implied Moderna's CEO's comments were self-serving, but the scenario he described wouldn't be, so his comments were not self-serving.

That's of course not necessarily what will actually happen, nor does Moderna's CEO control the outcome of what actually will happen (obviously).

It absolutely is. He's saying by getting the jab, you can defeat covid. Something that hasn't proven true so far. But he is trying to sell his vaccine to the unvaccinated under this premise. It is completely self serving.

indefinite boosters would be self-serving. if his comments help to successfully end COVID it will have benefitted his company in the short run, but...

of course, corporations do tend to be obsessed with the next quarter's profits

feb. 24, 2020 - moderna's share price closed at $18.59

feb 25, 2020 - company announces vials of its vaccine would be shipped to NIAID for more research, 42 days after the virus's sequence had been identified. shares close at $23.76. COVID-19 deaths had not yet hit america

today moderna trades at around $430 a share

pfizer and JNJ share prices haven't benefitted much from the vaccine


Pfizer is up about 5% from its pre-covid price which is actually WAY below the typical stock market. It's actually been a huge loser. I own a little bit of Pfizer stock. Not sure what JnJ is doing, but JnJ isn't primarily a medical drug company and they aren't shipping their vaccine in the same quantities so my expectation is the vaccine would be irrelevant for them.

Without knowing the specifics, my guess is that Moderna has a much, much smaller medical profile than Pffizer and the vaccine made a much bigger percentage of their profits whereas with Pfizer it's likely a more or less irrelevant part.
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Re: OT: COVID-19 thread #4 

Post#768 » by micromonkey » Sun Sep 26, 2021 2:26 pm

Instead of government mandates let’s let the market fix it

Allow insurance companies to not have to pay for Procedures related to covid if the person was not vaccinated-unless they enroll check the non vaccinated box and pay an appropriate premium. Just like smokers/health and life insurance

I read about a 25 yo denier with a double lung transplant. The rest of his short life will be littered with bills.

If people have to pay and face the logical /fiscal consequences of their actions /inactions -it is fair IMO

Much better than mandates
I’m not saying don’t treat-but treat at their own expense in higher premiums.

And as I understand they are already sucking more resources in using federal provided (ie we all pay for it) monoclonal antibodies-yet they have the gall to say they don’t want to pay taxes for the $35 shot-but the $2000 antibodies bag should be covered.

I’d say that also should be a reimbursement from insurance and based on status they can decide to cover or not.

Whatever the case my point is just solve it with money/market forces. I don’t think a certain group will ever be convinced so just make them pay a fair share for their convictions.
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Re: OT: COVID-19 thread #4 

Post#769 » by Almost Retired » Sun Sep 26, 2021 3:02 pm

micromonkey wrote:Instead of government mandates let’s let the market fix it

Allow insurance companies to not have to pay for Procedures related to covid if the person was not vaccinated-unless they enroll check the non vaccinated box and pay an appropriate premium. Just like smokers/health and life insurance

I read about a 25 yo denier with a double lung transplant. The rest of his short life will be littered with bills.

If people have to pay and face the logical /fiscal consequences of their actions /inactions -it is fair IMO

Much better than mandates
I’m not saying don’t treat-but treat at their own expense in higher premiums.

And as I understand they are already sucking more resources in using federal provided (ie we all pay for it) monoclonal antibodies-yet they have the gall to say they don’t want to pay taxes for the $35 shot-but the $2000 antibodies bag should be covered.

I’d say that also should be a reimbursement from insurance and based on status they can decide to cover or not.

Whatever the case my point is just solve it with money/market forces. I don’t think a certain group will ever be convinced so just make them pay a fair share for their convictions.


Again, why not promote safe prophylaxis for low risk cohorts. Vit D, quercetin, zinc and tumeric. And one Ivermectin tablet per week. Vaccinate those with serious co-morbidities and the elderly that wish to be vaccinated of their own free will. A young person with adequate Vitamin D levels around 50 ng/ml who takes a zinc supplement has an extremely low chance of getting a serious case. They would be far more likely to get a mild case or even a viral exposure without symptoms than ending up needed a double lung transplant. Exposure with mild illness provides far more effective immunity down the road than these jabs. That is now Indisputable. If widespread prophylaxis worked in Uttar Pradesh in India, where community hygeine, population density and poverty are far worse than in the USA...why couldn't it be tried here in one or two states. The prophylactic regimen is relatively cheap and readily available (except for occasional supply shortfalls for quercetin).

But your idea of adjusted insurance premiums has merit. I'd be willing to pay a little more for the right to make my own decisions on whether to get booster jabs. I've long thought that smoking and obesity should be penalized via insurance premiums. I know my employer gives me a $650 per year credit on my health insurance premiums for being nicotine free ($25 bucks a week). I wish it did the same for maintaining a BMI under 25. Obesity make one so much more prone to Type 2 Diabetes and the mortality figures on the obese who catch Covid is also far worse that ideal weight range cohorts.
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Re: OT: COVID-19 thread #4 

Post#771 » by chifan1798 » Sun Sep 26, 2021 3:07 pm

samwana wrote:
LateNight wrote:“I hate the government so I’m going to risk dying of covid” is one of the dumbest positions ever.
the actual risk of dying of covid for healthy people is not very high. and so it is everyone's personal decision what to do or what not to do. it's got nothing to do with hating the government.

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Unfortunately there are plenty of people who won’t get the vaccine out of spite for the current administration. It may not be the majority of the anti vaccine population, but there is a decent amount who have truly politicized it. Don’t be naive to think that it’s not that way for some.

Also, it’s a shame that people think this pandemic and the vaccine is all about their right to have a personal choice, as opposed to public health. Vaccines aren’t even the only argument…people argue about masks, social distancing and capacity limitations. People ignore that there are consequences that are not death that could happen even if healthy, and also ignore the potential cost to their own family, friends, or society as a whole.
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Re: OT: COVID-19 thread #4 

Post#772 » by waffle » Sun Sep 26, 2021 3:13 pm

what's weird is that getting the vaccine is even an issue

I got the jab. The 2nd Jab. I am vaccinated. If offered I'll get the booster.

For a short while there I didn't wear a mask, but I do NOW to try to hold down the transmission to people who are not vaccinated and hold down the presence of the virus overall to minimize future variants.

Pretty simple? Hardly worth getting all worked up about? People put stupid SH*T in their bodies all the time with less regard.

You can arm wave all you want but the reasons to get the jab SO FAR OUTWEIGH the reasons not to that a reasonable person simply rolls up their sleeve
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Re: OT: COVID-19 thread #4 

Post#773 » by DuckIII » Sun Sep 26, 2021 3:16 pm

LateNight wrote:“I hate the government so I’m going to risk dying of covid” is one of the dumbest positions ever.


In the era of Q, the intentionally fraudulent attack on democratic elections, and defense of a murderous insurrection, it’s becoming very challenging to rank the severity of stupidity.

These are revealing times, and the revelation is that America is really **** stupid.
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Re: OT: COVID-19 thread #4 

Post#774 » by dougthonus » Sun Sep 26, 2021 3:24 pm

samwana wrote:the actual risk of dying of covid for healthy people is not very high. and so it is everyone's personal decision what to do or what not to do. it's got nothing to do with hating the government.


A question of whether people should be able to make decisions that have a very negative impact on society is more or less the fundamental point. Not being safe with a disease that kills a huge number of people and has long term negative impact on 10x as many more impacts a lot of others regardless of your personal beliefs.

Fundamentally, part of what living in society means is that you agree to live under rules that are good for the whole and everyone benefits. Ignoring COVID for a second, you can think of seat belt rules, drinking and driving rules, paying taxes, bike helmets, or whatever laws you want to add. This is just another topic of whether the good for society outweighs the bad. We don't all agree with all the rules, but the outcome of living under them is better than not.

A disease that kills around 1% of the population may sound small, but cancer kills 1/10th as many people.
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Re: OT: COVID-19 thread #4 

Post#775 » by TheStig » Sun Sep 26, 2021 6:35 pm

dougthonus wrote:
TheStig wrote:It absolutely is. He's saying by getting the jab, you can defeat covid. Something that hasn't proven true so far. But he is trying to sell his vaccine to the unvaccinated under this premise. It is completely self serving.

What's he going to say? Go get the shot, covid will still be around forever..... hardly a great way to sell vaccines. He has to sell vaccines as the solution.


Gotcha, I disagree with your view of vaccines and how they will help, but I understand where you are coming from now.

BTW I'm not anti vax. I've had many vaccinations. Likely will have additional ones. But I don't get ones like this or the flu vaccine. I don't feel it's effective in preventing or killing covid. It is a good preventative treatment for some. I don't believe in a vaccine that requires the vaccinated to be protected from the unvaccinated. I don't want to take a new type of technology and sign away any rights I have in case something bad happens from it. I don't believe I'm at a significant risk. And in the end, I believe this type of imperfect vaccination will create worse and worse mutations. Lastly, I don't like the politicization of this topic. Remember when it was a conspiracy theory about vaccine mandates and our president wouldn't take "Trumps vaccine". What the hell happened to the party of my body my choice? I don't like the tone that people take and the elmination of discussion or personal choice. I believe it's a very slippery slope. Have you heard Don Lemmon speak about the unvaccinated? He wants to strip peoples abilities to work, get around, go shopping, eat..... It's disgusting.
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2021/08/01/don_lemon_no_shirt_no_shoes_no_vaccine_no_service.html?jwsource=cl

That's just my 2 cents.
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Re: OT: COVID-19 thread #4 

Post#776 » by TheStig » Sun Sep 26, 2021 7:13 pm

dougthonus wrote:
samwana wrote:the actual risk of dying of covid for healthy people is not very high. and so it is everyone's personal decision what to do or what not to do. it's got nothing to do with hating the government.


A question of whether people should be able to make decisions that have a very negative impact on society is more or less the fundamental point. Not being safe with a disease that kills a huge number of people and has long term negative impact on 10x as many more impacts a lot of others regardless of your personal beliefs.

Fundamentally, part of what living in society means is that you agree to live under rules that are good for the whole and everyone benefits. Ignoring COVID for a second, you can think of seat belt rules, drinking and driving rules, paying taxes, bike helmets, or whatever laws you want to add. This is just another topic of whether the good for society outweighs the bad. We don't all agree with all the rules, but the outcome of living under them is better than not.

A disease that kills around 1% of the population may sound small, but cancer kills 1/10th as many people.

Huh? The majority of people who are dying are old with underlying conditions. This isn't killing very many health and normal people.

And 1%? There are 330 million people in the us and 688k deaths. That's .002%. And again, it's a lot of older people with underlying conditions that were not long for this world. And in the begining of the pandemic when they were not prepared and had no clue how to treat it.

And I'd just like to add people who don't wear their seat belt, or drive drunk or skip taxes or don't wear their helmet, it's not being proposed to ban them from work, supermarkets, public transport, planes, resturants, public events in mass as preventative measure. They either get caught or they don't and if they do, most of those things are just fineable. Not some sort of ban from society. You're getting very dangerously close to becoming china and implementing a social credit score with that one.
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Re: OT: COVID-19 thread #4 

Post#777 » by TheStig » Sun Sep 26, 2021 7:25 pm

chifan1798 wrote:
samwana wrote:
LateNight wrote:“I hate the government so I’m going to risk dying of covid” is one of the dumbest positions ever.
the actual risk of dying of covid for healthy people is not very high. and so it is everyone's personal decision what to do or what not to do. it's got nothing to do with hating the government.

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Unfortunately there are plenty of people who won’t get the vaccine out of spite for the current administration. It may not be the majority of the anti vaccine population, but there is a decent amount who have truly politicized it. Don’t be naive to think that it’s not that way for some.

Also, it’s a shame that people think this pandemic and the vaccine is all about their right to have a personal choice, as opposed to public health. Vaccines aren’t even the only argument…people argue about masks, social distancing and capacity limitations. People ignore that there are consequences that are not death that could happen even if healthy, and also ignore the potential cost to their own family, friends, or society as a whole.

Huh? We've had Trump and Biden in office while the vaccine available. How is it in spite of the current administration when it was available under both ends of the political spectrum? You'll just like making things political.
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Re: OT: COVID-19 thread #4 

Post#778 » by andrewww » Sun Sep 26, 2021 7:39 pm

TheStig wrote:
dougthonus wrote:
samwana wrote:the actual risk of dying of covid for healthy people is not very high. and so it is everyone's personal decision what to do or what not to do. it's got nothing to do with hating the government.


A question of whether people should be able to make decisions that have a very negative impact on society is more or less the fundamental point. Not being safe with a disease that kills a huge number of people and has long term negative impact on 10x as many more impacts a lot of others regardless of your personal beliefs.

Fundamentally, part of what living in society means is that you agree to live under rules that are good for the whole and everyone benefits. Ignoring COVID for a second, you can think of seat belt rules, drinking and driving rules, paying taxes, bike helmets, or whatever laws you want to add. This is just another topic of whether the good for society outweighs the bad. We don't all agree with all the rules, but the outcome of living under them is better than not.

A disease that kills around 1% of the population may sound small, but cancer kills 1/10th as many people.

Huh? The majority of people who are dying are old with underlying conditions. This isn't killing very many health and normal people.

And 1%? There are 330 million people in the us and 688k deaths. That's .002%. And again, it's a lot of older people with underlying conditions that were not long for this world. And in the begining of the pandemic when they were not prepared and had no clue how to treat it.

And I'd just like to add people who don't wear their seat belt, or drive drunk or skip taxes or don't wear their helmet, it's not being proposed to ban them from work, supermarkets, public transport, planes, resturants, public events in mass as preventative measure. They either get caught or they don't and if they do, most of those things are just fineable. Not some sort of ban from society. You're getting very dangerously close to becoming china and implementing a social credit score with that one.


Exactly, people arent threatened with their livelihoods if they get booked not wearing a seat belt for example. No one ever says “my seatbelt works better if you wear yours”.

If anything, this is a pandemic of the old, obese and immunocompromised. It is absurd to risk the healthy for the unhealthy, and then demonize/blackmail the healthy while we’re at it. It is absolutely insane to see the demonization of people making a choice best for them.
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Re: OT: COVID-19 thread #4 

Post#779 » by dougthonus » Sun Sep 26, 2021 8:33 pm

TheStig wrote:But I don't get ones like this or the flu vaccine.


I can certainly understand why you would lump vaccines into two categories of permanent immunity worth getting and yearly's not worth getting.

I don't feel it's effective in preventing or killing covid. It is a good preventative treatment for some.


This vastly undersells the impact of the vaccine.

I don't believe in a vaccine that requires the vaccinated to be protected from the unvaccinated.


All vaccines work that way for the most part, it's just that most of the vaccines you get in childhood have 99% of the population take them and aren't trying to prevent the spread of something that is rampant around the country.

I don't want to take a new type of technology and sign away any rights I have in case something bad happens from it. I don't believe I'm at a significant risk.


Also understand the nervousness around both these points, especially at the beginning. Now the results of the vaccine are extraordinarily well studied though.

And in the end, I believe this type of imperfect vaccination will create worse and worse mutations.


Worse mutations and more mutations will come from the virus spreading more which will happen due to less vaccination.

Lastly, I don't like the politicization of this topic.


Agreed.

Remember when it was a conspiracy theory about vaccine mandates and our president wouldn't take "Trumps vaccine". What the hell happened to the party of my body my choice?


I don't remember it ever being viewed as a conspiracy theory that there would be vaccine mandates. You are mandated to take many vaccines and the idea that this might be another isn't a conspiracy. It was a pretty logical outcome that was going to happen. If you told me in April of 2020 that people would be forced to take a COVID vaccine to go to school or to work at large companies I wouldn't have been even remotely surprised by that.

Your body your choice isn't true in many other cases with diseases that aren't rampantly killing people at this exact moment. You have almost certainly been vaccinated for MMR, Smallpox, Polio, and other things whether you wanted to be or not, and the idea that you would be forced to get a vaccine for something that is shutting down the world was a logical outcome. To me, this seems like something people said was a conspiracy theory after the fact and not at the time, but again, this gets into a "they" say its a conspiracy theory or "they" said it wouldn't happen. I'm not part of either they. If you told me it would happen a year and a half ago, I'd have said you're darn right it will.

I'm not sure what you mean by Trump's vaccine or which president wasn't going to take it (Trump or Biden) and have no idea what political piece you are referring to there (not saying you're wrong, I'm literally ignorant to what you are referring to, I don't follow a whole lot of politics).

I don't like the tone that people take and the elmination of discussion or personal choice. I believe it's a very slippery slope. Have you heard Don Lemmon speak about the unvaccinated? He wants to strip peoples abilities to work, get around, go shopping, eat..... It's disgusting.


By living in a society, you give up many personal choices (or at least you have consequences for making them pushed upon you by society). Society at large decides which things you have choices about and which you don't. Being forced to take a vaccines for an on-going epidemic disease is pretty far away from the place I'd draw the line on where my concerns over personal freedom are being eroded.

Quite frankly, in an on-going epidemic, I think it is within reason to strip the ability of people to visit public places where they place others at risk when they have a very clear method of reducing that risk massively. Again, vaccines for an on-going epidemic wouldn't be the personal place I would draw the line on such things, but I understand the point of not wanting any lines drawn, but then again, that is the cost of living in any society. Some societies draw them more tightly and some more loosely, and of course we don't really get to choose. It's not like either your or I could trivially say "I didn't choose this set of societal rules" and move to New Zealand with no consequences. We are somewhat born into whatever rules exist where we are born with somewhat limited means of reasonably escaping those rules. In that sense, I can understand why you would also fight to shape the rules of your society to your desired state.

There are certainly a wide number of people whom are against any rules/regulations, think the government is out to get them, and push back against all sorts of things. In many ways, I'm thankful for these people, because while I don't think the government is at the center or evil plots to insert microchips and control people, the government absolutely needs a watchful public pressuring it at all times. Same with erosion of freedoms and other areas. Without people doing that we are constantly under threat.

This isn't one of those situations that I feel needs that type of pressure though. Again, billions of vaccine doses have been given. 100s of millions of COVID cases are out there. This is well studied on both ends, no matter who you are, the vaccine is a lower mathematical risk of bad outcomes for you and a vaccinated population protects everyone better.
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Re: OT: COVID-19 thread #4 

Post#780 » by dougthonus » Sun Sep 26, 2021 8:44 pm

andrewww wrote:Exactly, people arent threatened with their livelihoods if they get booked not wearing a seat belt for example. No one ever says “my seatbelt works better if you wear yours”.


I mean it's a moronic example because you getting a vaccine DOES make it safer for other people, you wearing a seat belt doesn't. I'm not sure how you could not understand that.

That said, there laws that everyone has to wear seatbelts just so I don't have to pay your medical bills when you crash and have severe injury. 99% of the hospitalization rate is by the non vacccinated and that cost hits everyone else in their insurance premiums and taxes.

If anything, this is a pandemic of the old, obese and immunocompromised. It is absurd to risk the healthy for the unhealthy, and then demonize/blackmail the healthy while we’re at it. It is absolutely insane to see the demonization of people making a choice best for them.


It absolutely is the worst for those people, but delta has changed the game a bit with that. The risks are much greater for healthy individuals with delta and the risks are much greater than if you get the vaccine even if you are healthy, by a factor of about 10-100.

No one is a demon for not getting a vaccine. Mostly the choice to not get the vaccine is made out of ignorance. Even the people who make arguments against it, the arguments made aren't bad. They are just ignorant of the facts and actual statistical probabilities. If you actually were safer for not getting a vaccine if young and healthy that'd be a very different argument, but you aren't.

Getting the vaccine is objectively better for you statistically. You saying you are making a choice that is good for you is wrong. You are making a choice you feel good about. That's different. Not getting the vaccine is a choice that is objectively bad for you. Beyond that, it is also bad for those around you. That is objective fact based on billions of data points.

Subjectively, you might feel spectacular about your choice to not get vaccinated. Odds are if you are young and healthy that you will still be fine with the bad choice. Delta isn't running around with a 10% kill rate or anything. Odds are your bad choice will also turn out fine. Odds are even higher that good choice would turn out fine though and the more people that make the good choice the better off everyone is.

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