Lauri Markkanen Discussion Thread: PT 2

[Axl Rose]

I feel it would be wrong to match Lauri with no intention of him being part of the long term plan.

We've waited too long to cash out on him and it would be dirty to hold him hostage in hopes of salvaging that and maybe sending him to a team he doesn't even want to go to.

Besides our options to improve the team are limited. Unless we luck out in the draft lotto (fingers crossed) we're going to have to rely heavily on free agency, and we need all the cap we can get.

[E-DC]

Same way I feel I'm beating a dead horse when I claim Bulls never wanted Lauri to become a star. Fans did, but honestly how easy it is if the people who decides what you do on the court doesn't want to become better and have the power to decide your future in the league.

Please elaborate. I want to follow you down the rabbit hole.

Do you have any idea how you develop big's?

You develop bigs by making them run pick & rolls / pops all the time. Is this something Bulls have done with Lauri constantly?

Other way is to make them play post or any other position they feel comfortable. In Lauri's situation that was midrange offense. And again this is something you should run constantly. Did Bulls do this with Lauri?

So there is the two ways you develop your bigs. Have Bulls done this with Lauri? Be honest with yourself when you answer this.

Lauri has gotten playing time. And the way they have used it is suitable when you are developing a guard player. Is Lauri a guard?

If you believe he is, then why did they wanted him to become much stronger and lose his mobility while doing so, instead of becoming faster what you need to be a guard? So claim they wanted him to become a guard is a lie.

So if you really understand player development and see what Bulls have wanted Lauri to do to develop himself, then you would really question the claim they wanted a star. They wanted a stretch 5 who would spread the floor so guards can shine.

I know lot of now comes out and claims he wasn't good at these? But when you are developing young players you let them do their mistakes. No-one was born to become a star. Every young player have had their bad moments, but when you developing you give them their chance to do those mistakes. Again did Lauri got a chance to any of this constantly?

This is spot on!

[CobyWhite0]

I feel it would be wrong to match Lauri with no intention of him being part of the long term plan.

We've waited too long to cash out on him and it would be dirty to hold him hostage in hopes of salvaging that and maybe sending him to a team he doesn't even want to go to.

Besides our options to improve the team are limited. Unless we luck out in the draft lotto (fingers crossed) we're going to have to rely heavily on free agency, and we need all the cap we can get.

It's not dirty, it's not a dick move, it's just leverage. Thats why they have Restricted Free Agency, both the player and team have options and certain leverage.

The player can take the QO, and be Unrestricted in one year. It's no different than any other contract with a team option. The player can ask 29 other teams to offer him enough $$$ that the Bulls won't match. The player (and the team that wants him) can work out a sign-and-trade with his old team.

His old team can either match an offer sheet, or keep the player for another season - knowing that he's walking the next summer. Though it's technically illegal for a team to say "we're matching any offer sheet", it's usually known among the agents and front offices around the league what a team's intentions are, so they can "threaten" to match.

It's at least 95% sure that Lauri is gone to another team this summer, now it's just a matter of seeing how the transaction goes down. The Bulls asked for a 1st at the deadline to give a team Lauri's RFA rights. That hasn't changed, though now they'd probably take a high 2nd this summer.

[Swuul]

I've been (again) told by a person I believe should be "in the know" Lauri is more and more leaning on taking the QO, unless there is something spectacular happening. Apparently Lauri's agent isn't happy about that, and is trying to convince Lauri to reconsider. Lauri likes the city of Chicago,and Bulls has been his fav team since he was a small kid, so he wants one more shot at Bulls; if that fizzles too, then he at least is free to go next summer.

[BullChit]

I've been (again) told by a person I believe should be "in the know" Lauri is more and more leaning on taking the QO, unless there is something spectacular happening. Apparently Lauri's agent isn't happy about that, and is trying to convince Lauri to reconsider. Lauri likes the city of Chicago,and Bulls has been his fav team since he was a small kid, so he wants one more shot at Bulls; if that fizzles too, then he at least is free to go next summer.

That would mean that these Lauri threads would continue for another whole season and off season...

Sent from my CPH1979 using Tapatalk

[PaKii94]

I've been (again) told by a person I believe should be "in the know" Lauri is more and more leaning on taking the QO, unless there is something spectacular happening. Apparently Lauri's agent isn't happy about that, and is trying to convince Lauri to reconsider. Lauri likes the city of Chicago,and Bulls has been his fav team since he was a small kid, so he wants one more shot at Bulls; if that fizzles too, then he at least is free to go next summer.

I'd love to see Lauri get a shot next to vuc again. Theoretically the spacing is really nice for coby/Lavine drives. However I think he'll continue to be an after thought if he signs the QO. Would happily love to be wrong though.

[FanInTheAttic]

All your saying is another derivative of the Lauri isn't better because of coaches, teammates, system narrative. You say it's an experiment worth doing when looking at the efficiency stats this season so do we ignore the numbers and games we saw from the previous seasons?

His best attribute is his three-point shooting. That's been shown through various coaches and systems. He hasn't been used differently because he doesn't have the skill set to be used differently.

Well now you conveniently changed the topic of our discussion from how a NBA team operates to your views about Markkanen. At least now you admit that Markkanen is being used in a certain way in this most free flowing NBA offense.

I will answer anyway. Yes, if you have a developing player that shows development in efficiency, it is very natural to check if it's gonna fly at a higher rate. This is not even about Markkanen, could be any player. And I will say it again, the coaching staff has much more information about their players than we will ever have, and there might be a reason why Lauri was not played in the post more, otherwise they would (or should) have experimented with him a little bit more. But we can't say, just based on his previous seasons, that he has or hasn't developed a better post play before we see him play more in the post, despite his efficiency stats. Why does it feel I'm beating a dead horse....

The topic was partly how NBA teams operate. You intimated Lauri didn't post up more because of spacing issues. I pointed out that teams still do things on the block for post up players and still shoot three's, don't run rigid or slow it down offenses.

Again through 4 seasons we've seen Lauri not perform well in the post. That doesn't mean that him doing well in s small sample size says yeah lets do that more often him. It's amazing how you dismiss the three years prior to focus on this year's play. So when you admit they have more information that's the information they have .

You're beating a dead horse because you making excuses for a limited offensive player. You keep trying to use a small post-sample size this year to override the previous three years. You keep intimating in some posts and flat out saying in others he would be better if used differently and ignoring through four seasons he hasn't shown that ability.

If he were more skilled he would be used in more varied ways but he isn't. His lack of skills is on him. Teams don't go out of their way to feature those types of players. What other skill outside of three-point shooting should the Bulls have tried to exploit with Lauri?

Maybe you are confusing me with another poster since I think I never posted anything about any spacing issues. I was mainly commenting on your claim that Lauri could just post up more if he wanted, and I am happy that we agree now that it's not only Lauri's decision to make.

Maybe he would be better now in the post than in previous seasons, or maybe not, you can't really say based on his efficiency stats until we see him post up on a higher rate, young players can and should improve their game over time. It is true that I would have liked to see more, I think it wouldn't have been much of a sacrifice from the Bulls this season if he would have turned out to be as bad as in previous seasons, but would have been very useful if he could have scored efficiently in the post a little bit more.

[edededtut]

Again through 4 seasons we've seen Lauri not perform well in the post. That doesn't mean that him doing well in s small sample size says yeah lets do that more often him. It's amazing how you dismiss the three years prior to focus on this year's play.

If someone is scoring efficiently from certain plays this season, instead of giving him more opportunities in said plays to see if he can do that in bigger volume, one should focus on seasons 2017/18, 2018/19, 2019/2020 when he wasn’t efficient in those plays?

It certainly is amazing.

Edit: again, I’m not trying to say the bulls should have used Lauri as a post player, just that they would have given him the ball at least once in a blue moon when having a mismatch in the post. Almost all of those situations ended in the guard using the mismatch from the perimeter and ignoring the entry pass

[the ultimates]

Well now you conveniently changed the topic of our discussion from how a NBA team operates to your views about Markkanen. At least now you admit that Markkanen is being used in a certain way in this most free flowing NBA offense.

I will answer anyway. Yes, if you have a developing player that shows development in efficiency, it is very natural to check if it's gonna fly at a higher rate. This is not even about Markkanen, could be any player. And I will say it again, the coaching staff has much more information about their players than we will ever have, and there might be a reason why Lauri was not played in the post more, otherwise they would (or should) have experimented with him a little bit more. But we can't say, just based on his previous seasons, that he has or hasn't developed a better post play before we see him play more in the post, despite his efficiency stats. Why does it feel I'm beating a dead horse....

The topic was partly how NBA teams operate. You intimated Lauri didn't post up more because of spacing issues. I pointed out that teams still do things on the block for post up players and still shoot three's, don't run rigid or slow it down offenses.

Again through 4 seasons we've seen Lauri not perform well in the post. That doesn't mean that him doing well in s small sample size says yeah lets do that more often him. It's amazing how you dismiss the three years prior to focus on this year's play. So when you admit they have more information that's the information they have .

You're beating a dead horse because you making excuses for a limited offensive player. You keep trying to use a small post-sample size this year to override the previous three years. You keep intimating in some posts and flat out saying in others he would be better if used differently and ignoring through four seasons he hasn't shown that ability.

If he were more skilled he would be used in more varied ways but he isn't. His lack of skills is on him. Teams don't go out of their way to feature those types of players. What other skill outside of three-point shooting should the Bulls have tried to exploit with Lauri?

Maybe you are confusing me with another poster since I think I never posted anything about any spacing issues. I was mainly commenting on your claim that Lauri could just post up more if he wanted, and I am happy that we agree now that it's not only Lauri's decision to make.

Maybe he would be better now in the post than in previous seasons, or maybe not, you can't really say based on his efficiency stats until we see him post up on a higher rate, young players can and should improve their game over time. It is true that I would have liked to see more, I think it wouldn't have been much of a sacrifice from the Bulls this season if he would have turned out to be as bad as in previous seasons, but would have been very useful if he could have scored efficiently in the post a little bit more.

Nobody is stopping Lauri from posting more except Lauri. Just like nobody is stopping Lauri from putting the ball on the floor and driving or being a better ball handler. Just like nobody has stopped Lauri from being a better passer.

His only useful and consistent offensive skill is his three-point shooting. That's clearly where Lauri is most comfortable with his limited skill set. So we didn't agree on your Lauri's use of post-ups being up to him at all. You just want to ignore his obvious limitations to get him more shots based on a small sample.

[dougthonus]

I'd love to see Lauri get a shot next to vuc again. Theoretically the spacing is really nice for coby/Lavine drives. However I think he'll continue to be an after thought if he signs the QO. Would happily love to be wrong though.

Lauri on the QO, in some ways, is my dream scenario for the Bulls. I don't think he's a star, but he'd be a great value contract at that rate. The Bulls could then remain over the cap, sign no one to multi-year deals, and enter 2022 with 42M in cap room with just Vuc, Zach's cap hold, Pat, and Coby on the roster and then hope to entice Beal (whom loves Donovan) or Kawhi (if Clippers continue to disappoint) to the team in that off-season.

It's a long shot plan, but it seems more reasonable than most plans. Lauri would definitely give the team a good boost on the one year deal relative to other guys they could get.

That said, it is hard for me to envision a scenario where Lauri doesn't have a full MLE deal on the table 4/40ish or whatever. If I'm Lauri and the best I can get this year is the full MLE, I'm probably taking that vs playing on the QO for a team that clearly isn't trying to feature me or motivated to develop me and will have me in a role player position.

That said, if someone offers Lauri a full MLE, I'd match it if I'm the Bulls which might not be in Lauri's best interest going forward either if he feels that way about the situation (though at full MLE, Lauri's expectation wherever he is should be role player).

Either way, I think someone will probably find room to go above that, but will be interesting.

[FanInTheAttic]

The topic was partly how NBA teams operate. You intimated Lauri didn't post up more because of spacing issues. I pointed out that teams still do things on the block for post up players and still shoot three's, don't run rigid or slow it down offenses.

Again through 4 seasons we've seen Lauri not perform well in the post. That doesn't mean that him doing well in s small sample size says yeah lets do that more often him. It's amazing how you dismiss the three years prior to focus on this year's play. So when you admit they have more information that's the information they have .

You're beating a dead horse because you making excuses for a limited offensive player. You keep trying to use a small post-sample size this year to override the previous three years. You keep intimating in some posts and flat out saying in others he would be better if used differently and ignoring through four seasons he hasn't shown that ability.

If he were more skilled he would be used in more varied ways but he isn't. His lack of skills is on him. Teams don't go out of their way to feature those types of players. What other skill outside of three-point shooting should the Bulls have tried to exploit with Lauri?

Maybe you are confusing me with another poster since I think I never posted anything about any spacing issues. I was mainly commenting on your claim that Lauri could just post up more if he wanted, and I am happy that we agree now that it's not only Lauri's decision to make.

Maybe he would be better now in the post than in previous seasons, or maybe not, you can't really say based on his efficiency stats until we see him post up on a higher rate, young players can and should improve their game over time. It is true that I would have liked to see more, I think it wouldn't have been much of a sacrifice from the Bulls this season if he would have turned out to be as bad as in previous seasons, but would have been very useful if he could have scored efficiently in the post a little bit more.

Nobody is stopping Lauri from posting more except Lauri. Just like nobody is stopping Lauri from putting the ball on the floor and driving or being a better ball handler. Just like nobody has stopped Lauri from being a better passer.

His only useful and consistent offensive skill is his three-point shooting. That's clearly where Lauri is most comfortable with his limited skill set. So we didn't agree on your Lauri's use of post-ups being up to him at all. You just want to ignore his obvious limitations to get him more shots based on a small sample.

So you say that Lauri is used as a 3 point shooter, but he could just post up as much as he likes whenever he wants and the rest of the players and coaches would just follow his game. What do you actually mean when a player is used as 3 point shooter?

[waffle]

lauri on QO? Sign me up

[the ultimates]

Maybe you are confusing me with another poster since I think I never posted anything about any spacing issues. I was mainly commenting on your claim that Lauri could just post up more if he wanted, and I am happy that we agree now that it's not only Lauri's decision to make.

Maybe he would be better now in the post than in previous seasons, or maybe not, you can't really say based on his efficiency stats until we see him post up on a higher rate, young players can and should improve their game over time. It is true that I would have liked to see more, I think it wouldn't have been much of a sacrifice from the Bulls this season if he would have turned out to be as bad as in previous seasons, but would have been very useful if he could have scored efficiently in the post a little bit more.

Nobody is stopping Lauri from posting more except Lauri. Just like nobody is stopping Lauri from putting the ball on the floor and driving or being a better ball handler. Just like nobody has stopped Lauri from being a better passer.

His only useful and consistent offensive skill is his three-point shooting. That's clearly where Lauri is most comfortable with his limited skill set. So we didn't agree on your Lauri's use of post-ups being up to him at all. You just want to ignore his obvious limitations to get him more shots based on a small sample.

So you say that Lauri is used as a 3 point shooter, but he could just post up as much as he likes whenever he wants and the rest of the players and coaches would just follow his game. What do you actually mean when a player is used as 3 point shooter?

Lauri is used as a three-point shooter and floor spacer because that's the only thing he does consistently decently. That's his comfort zone. He goes there because he can't put the ball on the floor and isn't a good passer. I'll say it again. Lauri's lack of skill limits how he's used in and how he plays in the offense. Nobody is telling him not to drive or post up. What other skills does Lauri have that should be utilized in the offense?

[ZOMG]

If Markkanen takes the QO after the way he was treated here, he's an idiot and has no self-respect. That is flat out crazy. He'll have absolutely zero guarantee of a starting spot, playing time, shots, touches... you name it. JFC. And the Bulls will have zero incentive to make him look good. He'll be a warm body at the 3pt line, nothing more.

I'm seriously starting to question who makes the decisions, Lauri or his wife.

[GoBlue72391]

I've been (again) told by a person I believe should be "in the know" Lauri is more and more leaning on taking the QO, unless there is something spectacular happening. Apparently Lauri's agent isn't happy about that, and is trying to convince Lauri to reconsider. Lauri likes the city of Chicago,and Bulls has been his fav team since he was a small kid, so he wants one more shot at Bulls; if that fizzles too, then he at least is free to go next summer.

I could maybe see it making sense as a calculated risk if he believes he's poised for a breakout season which would then put him in position for even more money as a free agent the following year, but that's just not going to happen in a bench role playing 20ish MPG. To be fair, it looked like he was in the process of a breakout season, or at least a good bounce back season, prior to the trade deadline. He was putting up something like 19 and 7 on good efficiency, which per 36 translated to like 21 and 8, so if he believes he can build off that then I can see it making sense. But again, that's just not going to happen in Chicago, barring Vuch suffering a season ending injury. And even then he still might not get enough minutes if we retain both Thad and Theis.

Even if he and his family love the city, he loves the team, he loves his teammates, and he's been a Bulls fan since he was a kid, leaving long term money on the table in favor of a 1-year $9 million QO just doesn't make any sense. He'd just be delaying the inevitable by one year. What happens after the QO season is up and he just put up averages of like 11 and 4 during a full season coming off the bench? He still wouldn't be in the Bulls plans so he would still have to leave and now he's a year older and his value decreased even more. He went from looking at like $15+ million annually to firmly in MLE territory after taking the QO.

There's zero upside for Lauri to take the QO. Free agency is still over two months away. That's plenty of time for his agent to talk some sense into him. As a Bulls fan however, that would be a great value contract.

[ZOMG]

I've been (again) told by a person I believe should be "in the know" Lauri is more and more leaning on taking the QO, unless there is something spectacular happening. Apparently Lauri's agent isn't happy about that, and is trying to convince Lauri to reconsider. Lauri likes the city of Chicago,and Bulls has been his fav team since he was a small kid, so he wants one more shot at Bulls; if that fizzles too, then he at least is free to go next summer.

I could maybe see it making sense as a calculated risk if he believes he's poised for a breakout season which would then put him in position for even more money as a free agent the following year, but that's just not going to happen in a bench role playing 20ish MPG. To be fair, it looked like he was in the process of a breakout season, or at least a good bounce back season, prior to the trade deadline. He was putting up something like 19 and 7 on good efficiency, which per 36 translated to like 21 and 8, so if he believes he can build off that then I can see it making sense. But again, that's just not going to happen in Chicago, barring Vuch suffering a season ending injury. And even then he still might not get enough minutes if we retain both Thad and Theis.

Even if he and his family love the city, he loves the team, he loves his teammates, and he's been a Bulls fan since he was a kid, leaving long term money on the table in favor of a 1-year $9 million QO just doesn't make any sense. He'd just be delaying the inevitable by one year. What happens after the QO season is up and he just put up averages of like 11 and 4 during a full season coming off the bench? He still wouldn't be in the Bulls plans so he would still have to leave and now he's a year older and his value decreased even more. He went from looking at like $15+ million annually to firmly in MLE territory after taking the QO.

There's zero upside for Lauri to take the QO. Free agency is still over two months away. That's plenty of time for his agent to talk some sense into him. As a Bulls fan however, that would be a great value contract.

That's it, basically.

[Louri]

I've been (again) told by a person I believe should be "in the know" Lauri is more and more leaning on taking the QO, unless there is something spectacular happening. Apparently Lauri's agent isn't happy about that, and is trying to convince Lauri to reconsider. Lauri likes the city of Chicago,and Bulls has been his fav team since he was a small kid, so he wants one more shot at Bulls; if that fizzles too, then he at least is free to go next summer.

That would mean that these Lauri threads would continue for another whole season and off season...

Sent from my CPH1979 using Tapatalk

If he takes QO, then there won't be much to talk about Lauri anymore. It means he is ok with who is now and what his place in NBA will be. Bench warmer.

[sco]

I've been (again) told by a person I believe should be "in the know" Lauri is more and more leaning on taking the QO, unless there is something spectacular happening. Apparently Lauri's agent isn't happy about that, and is trying to convince Lauri to reconsider. Lauri likes the city of Chicago,and Bulls has been his fav team since he was a small kid, so he wants one more shot at Bulls; if that fizzles too, then he at least is free to go next summer.

I could maybe see it making sense as a calculated risk if he believes he's poised for a breakout season which would then put him in position for even more money as a free agent the following year, but that's just not going to happen in a bench role playing 20ish MPG. To be fair, it looked like he was in the process of a breakout season, or at least a good bounce back season, prior to the trade deadline. He was putting up something like 19 and 7 on good efficiency, which per 36 translated to like 21 and 8, so if he believes he can build off that then I can see it making sense. But again, that's just not going to happen in Chicago, barring Vuch suffering a season ending injury. And even then he still might not get enough minutes if we retain both Thad and Theis.

Even if he and his family love the city, he loves the team, he loves his teammates, and he's been a Bulls fan since he was a kid, leaving long term money on the table in favor of a 1-year $9 million QO just doesn't make any sense. He'd just be delaying the inevitable by one year. What happens after the QO season is up and he just put up averages of like 11 and 4 during a full season coming off the bench? He still wouldn't be in the Bulls plans so he would still have to leave and now he's a year older and his value decreased even more. He went from looking at like $15+ million annually to firmly in MLE territory after taking the QO.

There's zero upside for Lauri to take the QO. Free agency is still over two months away. That's plenty of time for his agent to talk some sense into him. As a Bulls fan however, that would be a great value contract.

I agree. I will say that many foreign players with families like Chicago. I the city has a large number of foreign transplants that make it nice for the families culturally. I might be a little frightened to end up in some "lesser" NBA cities, if I was Lauri's wife.

As for Lauri's situation, I can envision a scenario where the Bulls don't end-up with Theis in FA and Thad after next season. Lauri, under that scenario, could be in a great position if he performs well. I'm not saying it's a given, but it is possible.

[FranchisePlayer]

Nobody is stopping Lauri from posting more except Lauri. Just like nobody is stopping Lauri from putting the ball on the floor and driving or being a better ball handler. Just like nobody has stopped Lauri from being a better passer.

His only useful and consistent offensive skill is his three-point shooting. That's clearly where Lauri is most comfortable with his limited skill set. So we didn't agree on your Lauri's use of post-ups being up to him at all. You just want to ignore his obvious limitations to get him more shots based on a small sample.

So you say that Lauri is used as a 3 point shooter, but he could just post up as much as he likes whenever he wants and the rest of the players and coaches would just follow his game. What do you actually mean when a player is used as 3 point shooter?

Lauri is used as a three-point shooter and floor spacer because that's the only thing he does consistently decently. That's his comfort zone. He goes there because he can't put the ball on the floor and isn't a good passer. I'll say it again. Lauri's lack of skill limits how he's used in and how he plays in the offense. Nobody is telling him not to drive or post up. What other skills does Lauri have that should be utilized in the offense?

Lauri has scored 30 or more points 14 times in the Bulls jersey. In the majority of those games the majority of his points WERE not 3Ps.

Didn't go through the 20+ point games since there are so many of them. Probably 40 or more. When he's getting the ball and is on fire as the saying goes, he's a very versatile scorer. He really doesn't have to resort to only scoring from deep.

You can say it again like 1000 times more and you'd still be wrong. Claiming he's a one-trick pony, a mere three point specialist, is a completely cooked up narrative that some Lauri hater has created and some, like you, so fondly like to repeat ad nauseam. Because he broke all kinds of records in his rookie season knocking down three-pointers?

Do you have some actual data to back up your pompeous claims of him having no other skills than shooting behind the arc? What stats are telling you without a doubt he doesn't have any other skills than scoring deep?

[FranchisePlayer]

If Markkanen takes the QO after the way he was treated here, he's an idiot and has no self-respect. That is flat out crazy. He'll have absolutely zero guarantee of a starting spot, playing time, shots, touches... you name it. JFC. And the Bulls will have zero incentive to make him look good. He'll be a warm body at the 3pt line, nothing more.

I'm seriously starting to question who makes the decisions, Lauri or his wife.

Yeah, that'd be equivalent to a Hara-kiri on basketball court. Career down the drains. The idea itself is so stupid it can't be real. Almost as stupid as claiming the Bulls can be a contender with Lavine as their maxed out #1 option.