Pat Williams Discussion - Out 4-6 Mo (late Feb to late April)

[sco]

I'm not sure what to expect from PWill if/when he returns, but considering how timid and unimpactful he was prior to the injury I wouldn't get my hopes too high, at least not for this season. I don't think we should just hand him his starting spot back either after missing the majority of the season.

My concern is that by the time he's likely to return, the season will be close to over, we'll be preparing for the playoffs, and our rotation will be pretty firm by then. Remember how awful Coby was the first 10 or so games after returning from injury? We won't have the luxury of letting PWill work through that during the playoffs.

Donovan also said Patrick had conditioning problems even before the injury, so his conditioning wasn't great even when he was healthy.

TBH I was surprised that someone his age came into camp with conditioning problems, that's usually something you seem from vets in their 30s.

IIRC, he was told that in relation to last year, which isn't uncommon for rooks. I didn't hear mention of that again until he was returning from the sprained ankle to start the season, which also makes sense. Optimistically, he should be able to ramp up his cardio way before he will be cleared to play. I don't think Pat is at all lazy like Dunn was, so if it's a work thing, I'm less concerned.

That all said, I really doubt he'll see the starting line-up this season and any minutes he sees over 10 a game will need to be earned.

[GoBlue72391]

If he’s not coming back this season then we have to trade for his replacement and ideally trade him for that replacement.

No we do not.

No, we don't have to, but there's a legitimate argument that we should.

[WindyCityBorn]

If he’s not coming back this season then we have to trade for his replacement and ideally trade him for that replacement.

No we do not.

No, we don't have to, but there's a legitimate argument that we should.

I wouldn’t trade him and neither should AKME. He got injured by a flagrant foul. So what? Trading for mid guy like Grant would be complete waste unless we absolutely win the title and Grant sure as doesn’t move the needle like that. Neither does Barnes who isn’t even a real PF.

[Bulls2021]

No we do not.

No, we don't have to, but there's a legitimate argument that we should.

I wouldn’t trade him and neither should AKME. He got injured by a flagrant foul. So what? Trading for mid guy like Grant would be complete waste unless we absolutely win the title and Grant sure as doesn’t move the needle like that. Neither does Barnes who isn’t even a real PF.

Nobody is untouchable, especially a guy who hasn't proven a thing like PWill. It's possible they don't fully believe in him anymore. If AKME thinks trading him for Grant or Barnes is the way to go, I trust them.

[GoBlue72391]

No we do not.

No, we don't have to, but there's a legitimate argument that we should.

I wouldn’t trade him and neither should AKME. He got injured by a flagrant foul. So what? Trading for mid guy like Grant would be complete waste unless we absolutely win the title and Grant sure as doesn’t move the needle like that. Neither does Barnes who isn’t even a real PF.

Are we still rebuilding or are we contending? His injury has little to do with whether he should be traded or not. I like PWill, but I don't love PWill, and I'm certainly not prioritizing him over our championship aspirations.

How is a 20 PPG two-way player a "mid" guy? What does that make PWill? As for Barnes not being a "real PF", he's as much a PF as PWill is and he's a lot better than he is too.

[MGB8]

No, we don't have to, but there's a legitimate argument that we should.

I wouldn’t trade him and neither should AKME. He got injured by a flagrant foul. So what? Trading for mid guy like Grant would be complete waste unless we absolutely win the title and Grant sure as doesn’t move the needle like that. Neither does Barnes who isn’t even a real PF.

Are we still rebuilding or are we contending? His injury has little to do with whether he should be traded or not. I like PWill, but I don't love PWill, and I'm certainly not prioritizing him over our championship aspirations.

How is a 20 PPG two-way player a "mid" guy? What does that make PWill? As for Barnes not being a "real PF", he's as much a PF as PWill is and he's a lot better than he is too.

Neither.

The Bulls aren’t contenders, and this forum is about to get some hard doses of reality soon, IMO. There is a big difference between near contender and actual - and none of the moves available will bridge that gap.

The Bulls are also not “re”building…. They are building. To be a good team That is a couple of steps away from being contenders. Pat’s injury was a big setback. Ideally Pat gets himself up to Harrison Barnes-ish level soon, Ball continues to improve, and then the Bulls smartly use other assets to add more punch/talent to that group.

[WindyCityBorn]

No, we don't have to, but there's a legitimate argument that we should.

I wouldn’t trade him and neither should AKME. He got injured by a flagrant foul. So what? Trading for mid guy like Grant would be complete waste unless we absolutely win the title and Grant sure as doesn’t move the needle like that. Neither does Barnes who isn’t even a real PF.

Are we still rebuilding or are we contending? His injury has little to do with whether he should be traded or not. I like PWill, but I don't love PWill, and I'm certainly not prioritizing him over our championship aspirations.

How is a 20 PPG two-way player a "mid" guy? What does that make PWill? As for Barnes not being a "real PF", he's as much a PF as PWill is and he's a lot better than he is too.

Him getting injured has EVERYTHING to do with him possibly be traded. If he had playing all season found his groove like Vuc this would not even be an issue.

[WindyCityBorn]

I wouldn’t trade him and neither should AKME. He got injured by a flagrant foul. So what? Trading for mid guy like Grant would be complete waste unless we absolutely win the title and Grant sure as doesn’t move the needle like that. Neither does Barnes who isn’t even a real PF.

Are we still rebuilding or are we contending? His injury has little to do with whether he should be traded or not. I like PWill, but I don't love PWill, and I'm certainly not prioritizing him over our championship aspirations.

How is a 20 PPG two-way player a "mid" guy? What does that make PWill? As for Barnes not being a "real PF", he's as much a PF as PWill is and he's a lot better than he is too.

Neither.

The Bulls aren’t contenders, and this forum is about to get some hard doses of reality soon, IMO. There is a big difference between near contender and actual - and none of the moves available will bridge that gap.

The Bulls are also not “re”building…. They are building. To be a good team That is a couple of steps away from being contenders. Pat’s injury was a big setback. Ideally Pat gets himself up to Harrison Barnes-ish level soon, Ball continues to improve, and then the Bulls smartly use other assets to add more punch/talent to that group.

Exactly these are in all type moves for a player that will not put us over the hump make no sense. Does anyone actually believe Grant or Barnes are missing piece to win a championship this season? I sure as Hell don’t. So I’d rather not give up PWill for a player that won’t change the ultimate outcome of our season.

I will say I do think we can be contenders, but we certainly are not favorites. If we can get a top 2 seed I think we have puncher’s chance of making the ECF.

[Bulls2021]

I wouldn’t trade him and neither should AKME. He got injured by a flagrant foul. So what? Trading for mid guy like Grant would be complete waste unless we absolutely win the title and Grant sure as doesn’t move the needle like that. Neither does Barnes who isn’t even a real PF.

Are we still rebuilding or are we contending? His injury has little to do with whether he should be traded or not. I like PWill, but I don't love PWill, and I'm certainly not prioritizing him over our championship aspirations.

How is a 20 PPG two-way player a "mid" guy? What does that make PWill? As for Barnes not being a "real PF", he's as much a PF as PWill is and he's a lot better than he is too.

Neither.

The Bulls aren’t contenders, and this forum is about to get some hard doses of reality soon, IMO. There is a big difference between near contender and actual - and none of the moves available will bridge that gap.

The Bulls are also not “re”building…. They are building. To be a good team That is a couple of steps away from being contenders. Pat’s injury was a big setback. Ideally Pat gets himself up to Harrison Barnes-ish level soon, Ball continues to improve, and then the Bulls smartly use other assets to add more punch/talent to that group.

I don't agree with this at all. So they're still "building" with 2 of their best 3 players being older than 30? They wasted most of their trade chips, draft capital and cap space on them. It's only downhill for those guys here on out realistically. If they're still "building" while being maxed out on cap space, you're pretty much banking on Coby and PWill becoming studs and somebody like Jokic signing in the future.

Do you think the Raptors were contenders when they got Kwahi? This team has more talent than they did IMO.

[mtron32]

Are we still rebuilding or are we contending? His injury has little to do with whether he should be traded or not. I like PWill, but I don't love PWill, and I'm certainly not prioritizing him over our championship aspirations.

How is a 20 PPG two-way player a "mid" guy? What does that make PWill? As for Barnes not being a "real PF", he's as much a PF as PWill is and he's a lot better than he is too.

Neither.

The Bulls aren’t contenders, and this forum is about to get some hard doses of reality soon, IMO. There is a big difference between near contender and actual - and none of the moves available will bridge that gap.

The Bulls are also not “re”building…. They are building. To be a good team That is a couple of steps away from being contenders. Pat’s injury was a big setback. Ideally Pat gets himself up to Harrison Barnes-ish level soon, Ball continues to improve, and then the Bulls smartly use other assets to add more punch/talent to that group.

I don't agree with this at all. So they're still "building" with 2 of their best 3 players being older than 30? They wasted most of their trade chips, draft capital and cap space on them. It's only downhill for those guys here on out realistically. If they're still "building" while being maxed out on cap space, you're pretty much banking on Coby and PWill becoming studs and somebody like Jokic signing in the future.

Do you think the Raptors were contenders when they got Kwahi? This team has more talent than they did IMO.

The team is VERY talented, but they don't have a top 5 player that can't be stopped. I love Zach and DeMar, but neither of those dudes would I build a team around if given the choice between them and Ja, KD, Luka, Trae, or Giannis. Brooklyn has 3, and then you have the Warriors and the Suns who are stacked. I believe we can go far if we get some size, but we aren't winning a championship with this squad as currently constructed. We don't make the finals unless something catastrophic happens in the East.

Having said all that, do I really want to give up on Pat just to have a chance to make it an extra round to get our heads beaten in? Zach's contract is approaching, whomever we get is going to require money as well that we'd have to let go. Having rookies in good positions like Coby and Pat, and on advantageous contracts is a big benefit to this team.

Size can be gotten without giving up the youngins, both of which we are going to need, Coby this year, Pat in the future.

[JohnnyTapwater]

Paw is not getting traded.

[SHO'NUFF]

If this was Scottie Barnes injured on our team I'd say hell no to trading him. I can live with trading Pat if it meant getting a very good starting forward.

[GoBlue72391]

I wouldn’t trade him and neither should AKME. He got injured by a flagrant foul. So what? Trading for mid guy like Grant would be complete waste unless we absolutely win the title and Grant sure as doesn’t move the needle like that. Neither does Barnes who isn’t even a real PF.

Are we still rebuilding or are we contending? His injury has little to do with whether he should be traded or not. I like PWill, but I don't love PWill, and I'm certainly not prioritizing him over our championship aspirations.

How is a 20 PPG two-way player a "mid" guy? What does that make PWill? As for Barnes not being a "real PF", he's as much a PF as PWill is and he's a lot better than he is too.

Him getting injured has EVERYTHING to do with him possibly be traded. If he had playing all season found his groove like Vuc this would not even be an issue.

No it doesn't, because there's a very good chance that, had he not gotten injured, he would have continued with his 6-9 PPG timid, ineffective level of play, which would naturally create trade discussions to fill the gaping hole at PF before heading into the playoffs.

[boozapalooza]

No, we don't have to, but there's a legitimate argument that we should.

I wouldn’t trade him and neither should AKME. He got injured by a flagrant foul. So what? Trading for mid guy like Grant would be complete waste unless we absolutely win the title and Grant sure as doesn’t move the needle like that. Neither does Barnes who isn’t even a real PF.

Are we still rebuilding or are we contending? His injury has little to do with whether he should be traded or not. I like PWill, but I don't love PWill, and I'm certainly not prioritizing him over our championship aspirations.

How is a 20 PPG two-way player a "mid" guy? What does that make PWill? As for Barnes not being a "real PF", he's as much a PF as PWill is and he's a lot better than he is too.

I would hope for a lot more than Grant or Barnes in a PWill trade. I just don’t think either guy is a good fit on this team. Neither guy is a 20 pt scorer on this team. Maybe 12-15ppg, as both have proven to be when they're on a good team. There’s only one ball and it will be in Zach/Demar/Lonzo’s hands. PWill is just as good defensively as Barnes/Grant with a hell of a lot more potential. I trust AK to make the right move, he’s too smart to trade a young guy with monster potential like PWill for a role player. Trade Coby and a pick for one of them.

[GoBlue72391]

I wouldn’t trade him and neither should AKME. He got injured by a flagrant foul. So what? Trading for mid guy like Grant would be complete waste unless we absolutely win the title and Grant sure as doesn’t move the needle like that. Neither does Barnes who isn’t even a real PF.

Are we still rebuilding or are we contending? His injury has little to do with whether he should be traded or not. I like PWill, but I don't love PWill, and I'm certainly not prioritizing him over our championship aspirations.

How is a 20 PPG two-way player a "mid" guy? What does that make PWill? As for Barnes not being a "real PF", he's as much a PF as PWill is and he's a lot better than he is too.

I would hope for a lot more than Grant or Barnes in a PWill trade. I just don’t think either guy is a good fit on this team. Neither guy is a 20 pt scorer on this team. Maybe 12-15ppg, as both have proven to be when they're on a good team. There’s only one ball and it will be in Zach/Demar/Lonzo’s hands. PWill is just as good defensively as Barnes/Grant with a hell of a lot more potential. I trust AK to make the right move, he’s too smart to trade a young guy with monster potential like PWill for a role player. Trade Coby and a pick for one of them.

Then you're overvaluing PWill since there's a very high chance he'll never be as good as either of them. We don't need them to score 20 for us, 12-15 and good D is all we need. PWill is not as good defensively as either of them; he has potential defensively, but that hasn't contributed to production. His lateral quickness is way too slow to ever be counted on for the level of defense we need.

I don't see PWill as having anything close to "monster potential." Out of all of our recent lottery picks he has produced, by far, the least out of any of them, and by a wide margin too, and to say nothing of his glaring confidence issues.

Having said that, I'm also fine with trading Coby and a pick for the PF we need. I don't care how we do it, we just need to do it, because we can't go into the playoffs with a 6'4" SG and 6'5" SF as our primary options at PF if we're serious about contending.

[MGB8]

Are we still rebuilding or are we contending? His injury has little to do with whether he should be traded or not. I like PWill, but I don't love PWill, and I'm certainly not prioritizing him over our championship aspirations.

How is a 20 PPG two-way player a "mid" guy? What does that make PWill? As for Barnes not being a "real PF", he's as much a PF as PWill is and he's a lot better than he is too.

Neither.

The Bulls aren’t contenders, and this forum is about to get some hard doses of reality soon, IMO. There is a big difference between near contender and actual - and none of the moves available will bridge that gap.

The Bulls are also not “re”building…. They are building. To be a good team That is a couple of steps away from being contenders. Pat’s injury was a big setback. Ideally Pat gets himself up to Harrison Barnes-ish level soon, Ball continues to improve, and then the Bulls smartly use other assets to add more punch/talent to that group.

I don't agree with this at all. So they're still "building" with 2 of their best 3 players being older than 30? They wasted most of their trade chips, draft capital and cap space on them. It's only downhill for those guys here on out realistically. If they're still "building" while being maxed out on cap space, you're pretty much banking on Coby and PWill becoming studs and somebody like Jokic signing in the future.

Do you think the Raptors were contenders when they got Kwahi? This team has more talent than they did IMO.

The Raps had a bunch of guys in their 30s. You prove my point. They traded for a superstar and an over 30 role player, also trading for an over 30 role playing C.

If it’s throw away the future to increase the odds of a rings from 2% to 2.5% - count me out. That is dumb. If some super value deal comes along (like the Raps got for the Kawhi rental), fine. But you didn’t see them ship out Siakam or OG, did you?

Have to balance present and future. The fact that they net owe one pick from the Vuc trade (Demar and Lauri offsetting) doesn’t mean dig the hole deeper.

[mtron32]

Neither.

The Bulls aren’t contenders, and this forum is about to get some hard doses of reality soon, IMO. There is a big difference between near contender and actual - and none of the moves available will bridge that gap.

The Bulls are also not “re”building…. They are building. To be a good team That is a couple of steps away from being contenders. Pat’s injury was a big setback. Ideally Pat gets himself up to Harrison Barnes-ish level soon, Ball continues to improve, and then the Bulls smartly use other assets to add more punch/talent to that group.

I don't agree with this at all. So they're still "building" with 2 of their best 3 players being older than 30? They wasted most of their trade chips, draft capital and cap space on them. It's only downhill for those guys here on out realistically. If they're still "building" while being maxed out on cap space, you're pretty much banking on Coby and PWill becoming studs and somebody like Jokic signing in the future.

Do you think the Raptors were contenders when they got Kwahi? This team has more talent than they did IMO.

The Raps had a bunch of guys in their 30s. You prove my point. They traded for a superstar and an over 30 role player, also trading for an over 30 role playing C.

If it’s throw away the future to increase the odds of a rinds from 2% to 2.5% - count me out. That is dumb. If some super value deal comes along (like the Raps got for the Kawhi rental), fine. But you didn’t see them ship out Siakam or OG, did you?

Have to balance present and future. The fact that they net owe one pick from the Vuc trade (Demar and Lauri offsetting) doesn’t mean dig the hole deeper.

People often forget that, Claw wanted out and the league knew it, Toronto just happened to have the pieces to make that move.

[MGB8]

Are we still rebuilding or are we contending? His injury has little to do with whether he should be traded or not. I like PWill, but I don't love PWill, and I'm certainly not prioritizing him over our championship aspirations.

How is a 20 PPG two-way player a "mid" guy? What does that make PWill? As for Barnes not being a "real PF", he's as much a PF as PWill is and he's a lot better than he is too.

I would hope for a lot more than Grant or Barnes in a PWill trade. I just don’t think either guy is a good fit on this team. Neither guy is a 20 pt scorer on this team. Maybe 12-15ppg, as both have proven to be when they're on a good team. There’s only one ball and it will be in Zach/Demar/Lonzo’s hands. PWill is just as good defensively as Barnes/Grant with a hell of a lot more potential. I trust AK to make the right move, he’s too smart to trade a young guy with monster potential like PWill for a role player. Trade Coby and a pick for one of them.

Then you're overvaluing PWill since there's a very high chance he'll never be as good as either of them. We don't need them to score 20 for us, 12-15 and good D is all we need. PWill is not as good defensively as either of them; he has potential defensively, but that hasn't contributed to production. His lateral quickness is way too slow to ever be counted on for the level of defense we need.

I don't see PWill as having anything close to "monster potential." Out of all of our recent lottery picks he has produced, by far, the least out of any of them, and by a wide margin too, and to say nothing of his glaring confidence issues.

Having said that, I'm also fine with trading Coby and a pick for the PF we need. I don't care how we do it, we just need to do it, because we can't go into the playoffs with a 6'4" SG and 6'5" SF as our primary options at PF if we're serious about contending.

I disagree (though just realized you were responding to someone else who mentioned “monster potential”). Harrison Barnes is an above average NBA starter. He became one pretty quickly, and basically stayed flat. That is what I expect out of Pat, with a small chance that he’s better, and an about equal chance that he is worse. I’m not in the “monster potential” camp… and don’t need to be to not want to package Pat PLUS other assets / useful players for a Barnes/Grant type.

His percentages as a rookie were great. Then factor in age and jump from ncaa reserve to nba starter. His defense was above average to start, tailed off later. He is a “3&D+” combo forward, same as Barnes, RoCo, Grant, and others - with a Jack-of-all-trades-exceptional-at-none H.Barnes vibe.

He was a rookie and looked fine for a rook. Other recent picks weren’t making reserve to starter jumps and holes in their games became readily obvious - Lauri is the same “above average starting 4 who doesn’t impact winning much” as he was here, WCJ is the same “puts up decent volume stats but doesn’t help winning much at all” player. Coby’s handle, defense, and finishing issues got exposed in year 2 but he still has a chance to progress.

The only serious issue with Pat is assertiveness on the Court… but he was assertive in summer league so I don’t think it’s a Snell-shell thing, I think it’s an adjustment thing. The laterally slow argument you are making I think is utter BS. Watched him both last season and in the 2 or so of this season - he wasn’t laterally slow in the least defensively.

Had he not been injured, we’d have much more clarity by now about him… that’s why the injury hurts so much. Lost critical development and evaluation time, where the Bulls are a touch better than what most expected (but go back and look where I had them in the East pre-season… 4th…)

[Michael Jackson]

Pat being hurt absolutely hurt his development. Look at Coby. This team brings the best out IMHO. Even Cook was looking good. TBJ looks better, Javonte does etc... Who actually looks worse on this team? No the injury set Pat back and I don't think he would have been as timid, I think he would have found his place. That being said, this culture is in place right now and it won't go away when he is back.

As far as replacements for him, I don't see a perfect fit. Honestly Pat may amount to a hill of beans but so far AK has had a pretty good nose for guys (even Theis or Thad he kept them for a reason last year circumstances failed but that's moot) That was his first decision though really, so I am going to have faith, even though Williams frustrates me but he is a kid, more than other young kids. He wasn't even a starter in college. Blah blah blah. We are not trading for Siakim for financial reasons. Barnes or Grant this year is an upgrade no doubt but once again don't fit in the financials. I mean who do you get for him? Unless you get something surefire, I think you hang onto him. Maybe I am wrong. If AK trades him I do still trust his judgement. If he sticks with him well... I will trust that.

[Wingy]

Neither.

The Bulls aren’t contenders, and this forum is about to get some hard doses of reality soon, IMO. There is a big difference between near contender and actual - and none of the moves available will bridge that gap.

The Bulls are also not “re”building…. They are building. To be a good team That is a couple of steps away from being contenders. Pat’s injury was a big setback. Ideally Pat gets himself up to Harrison Barnes-ish level soon, Ball continues to improve, and then the Bulls smartly use other assets to add more punch/talent to that group.

Pat's probably about 5 years, and a different team away from Harrison Barnes-level...and I don't think Barnes is a bad comp for him either in terms of eventual impact. Youth + insanely low motor + several areas of unpolished skills. It may happen, but it's not going to be fast, that's for sure. Vuc/DD will be long gone by then.

I think you undersell us. While we wouldn't be the favorite, a significant upgrade at the four makes us extremely formidable. I get that real superstars usually win, but we'd have a shot, and could go on a Phoenix-like run. The top dogs are flawed -

- Bucks: It's not like they've ever dominated in the playoffs the last couple years. Big respect to the champs still, and I'd bet that they'd beat us - but we'd certainly have a legit chance. I haven't seen anyone mention at any point this season that's it's questionable how much Jrue and Middleton will have in the tank deep in the playoffs. Covid bubble + short offseason + Finals-winning run + Olympic gold medal run + another weird ass covid season. I gotta believe those guys are going to be gassed, especially if they come up against a team with a lot of depth - which basically describes us.
- Nets: Certainly one of the faves due to Durant alone. Weird home/away thing w/Kyrie, who knows how it'll work out. Like a couple of our top guys - their 3 stars are in their 30s, but with a lot of playoff miles, and injury histories. We saw it hit Harden last year.
- Phoenix: They gained a lot w/their Finals run, and I think with that should be favored over us, but they just don't frighten me. Their heart/soul/engine will be at time of playoffs a 37 year old Chris Paul, and he's often nicked by playoff time.
- Warriors: Yeah. They're the team to beat. I still do our best to get the opportunity to face them.

Honorable mention to the Sixers. I think they'll be tough against us with Embiid of course...probably call it a toss up as constructed right now, though that could change if they trade Simmons.

Of course we lack playoff experience, and we might be the ones that suffer unfortunate injury, but we are not that far away. Like HINrich Police said in this, or some other nearby thread. The PWill-less version of the Bulls where everyone is healthy, and in rhythm has literally never played together. Of course it may never, but if it does, and gets an upgrade at PF - we're dangerous. Like Maverick talkin' to Iceman kinda dangerous.