Vinny Fired;Vinny+Gar+Pax (?!) Press Conference @ 11AM today

[DuckIII]

Re, let me back up a bit so you understand what my posts on these points have been about. Many posters for weeks have completely dismissed the team's version and castigated Paxson. Then during the press conference, sentiments like this started to appear:

Also, you guys that bought management's bs article about VDN starting the fight owe the rest of us a John Paxson-esque apology.

I then said, no, nothing said validates the part of the story that has Paxson as the physical aggressor. I said both versions remain completely plausible and stated why (and I'm so right about all of that, if I were gay and met an also gay version of myself, I'd totally do me).

You then started making counterpoints in defense of the position contrary to mine. I don't know if you've ever claimed that any of this proves what Paxson did or did not do, and don't intend to go back and check. If all you are talking about is perception, that's far more reasonable because lots of people will give the "apology" a superficial glance and move on. Those taking a look, and who are objective, will take it for what it is - a generic acknowledgement of wrongdoing.

[Rerisen]

We can not like it, we can rail against it. We can not agree with it. We can call people idiots.

But for all of our huffing, this is the type of view that is common about the Chicago Bulls. And things like what John Paxson did are what creates it.

Stein: With Rose and Noah, any free agent has to think, ‘ya know what?’…on one hand, the Bulls are such a dysfunctional mess as an organization, and I put the blame on Reinsdorf. He’s the enabler, the one who keeps Paxson in this role, and it’s just a mess, an absolute mess. So if I’m a free agent, I’m wondering if I want to hitch my ride to a Jerry Reinsdorf operation. But on the flip side, man, Rose and Noah, are pretty enticing.

Simmons: If you’re Wade, and they clean house and fire their coach and GM…

Stein: They won’t. Vinny Del Negro might lose his job, but if Paxson is fired I’ll be shocked.

Simmons: Well they’re idiots…

Stein: Even if Paxson is fired, Reinsdorf is still there. If I’m Wade, I’m not goin: I like Noah, I like Rose, but with the cap space that Miami has I like Pat Riley more.

People like Jeff Van Gundy were somewhat more diplomatic, but disapproving just the same.

[Fl_Flash]

The whole reason this was done is so that people would shut up about it. Which is exactly what will happen. Had the Bulls fired Vinny, and defiantly and explicitly waged war on their version of events, this thing would live on and taint free agency and the coaching search. There is absolutely no upside to that route, so they wisely avoided it.

Whether the apology also represents some sort of acknowledgement that Paxson was a physical aggressor, and not Vinny, is possible, but unsupported by anything actually said. In fact, the nebulous generality of it all far more strongly suggests no concession on that point whatsoever. It was handled well, precisely as any competent PR specialist would have designed it.

Pretty much this. Pax apologized for being the one who confronted Vinny. It really was his only sensible move. I think it was agreed by all sides that Pax sought out Vinny. After that is where the stories diverge.

I would have been surprised if this was handled any other way because as Duck points out - if Pax doesn't make a general apology it's left hanging out there for anyone and everyone to randomly speculate over what really happened. As it was, he doesn't explicitly state that he was totally in the wrong, just that he regrets his actions (as he should). This was the best way for him and the Bulls to move on.

[DuckIII]

Sure it is. The team doesn't have to recount the leak line by line to cave to it. If the resulting perception left is that Paxson was to blame, they have accomplished the same thing.

You are blending what the team did, with how what the team did is perceived. Two different things. The team did not concede that Vinny's version is accurate. It didn't happen. So why say it did happen? (I already know the answer)

[kyrv]

Re, let me back up a bit so you understand what my posts on these points have been about. Many posters for weeks have completely dismissed the team's version and castigated Paxson. Then during the press conference, sentiments like this started to appear:

Also, you guys that bought management's bs article about VDN starting the fight owe the rest of us a John Paxson-esque apology.

I then said, no, nothing said validates the part of the story that has Paxson as the physical aggressor. I said both versions remain completely plausible and stated why (and I'm so right about all of that, if I were gay and met an also gay version of myself, I'd totally do me).

You then started making counterpoints in defense of the position contrary to mine. I don't know if you've ever claimed that any of this proves what Paxson did or did not do, and don't intend to go back and check. If all you are talking about is perception, that's far more reasonable because lots of people will give the "apology" a superficial glance and move on. Those taking a look, and who are objective, will take it for what it is - a generic acknowledgement of wrongdoing.

I personally believe nothing could have happened without both parties escalating it, and I would have thought a bit more of VDN had he also apologized 'for his part' or whatever generic wording he prefers.

I find it odd that the person who stood up and took the heat for his part gets the blame and the person who declines to do so is deemed 'must be innocent'. I haven't heard any version where both parties did not escalate this, and where if either party had stopped escalating, it would have been a dead issue.

[-Illmatic-]

I feel like I should have to pay for this fight.

Kyrv and Duck vs. Reserin in a realgm heavy weight fight


But seriously Paxson enitiated the fight. He apoligized for HIS actions and said that HE was wrong. Like JVG said never storm into the coaches office after a tough loss. It's his fault no matter what.

[DuckIII]

But seriously Paxson enitiated the fight. He apoligized for HIS actions and said that HE was wrong. Like JVG said never storm into the coaches office after a tough loss. It's his fault no matter what.

He initiated the argument. To the extent things got physical, we have no idea how that happened. Regardless, I agree that it was his fault not matter what because he, at minimum, created the situation.

[kyrv]

We can not like it, we can rail against it. We can not agree with it. We can call people idiots.

But for all of our huffing, this is the type of view that is common about the Chicago Bulls. And things like what John Paxson did are what creates it.

Stein: With Rose and Noah, any free agent has to think, ‘ya know what?’…on one hand, the Bulls are such a dysfunctional mess as an organization, and I put the blame on Reinsdorf. He’s the enabler, the one who keeps Paxson in this role, and it’s just a mess, an absolute mess. So if I’m a free agent, I’m wondering if I want to hitch my ride to a Jerry Reinsdorf operation. But on the flip side, man, Rose and Noah, are pretty enticing.

Simmons: If you’re Wade, and they clean house and fire their coach and GM…

Stein: They won’t. Vinny Del Negro might lose his job, but if Paxson is fired I’ll be shocked.

Simmons: Well they’re idiots…

Stein: Even if Paxson is fired, Reinsdorf is still there. If I’m Wade, I’m not goin: I like Noah, I like Rose, but with the cap space that Miami has I like Pat Riley more.

People like Jeff Van Gundy were somewhat more diplomatic, but disapproving just the same.

Simmons calling someone else an idiot is pretty rich.

Or maybe this is the part where we pretend he is really funny. I have a hard time distinguishing.

it is bad press, it is news. For the moment.

[HomoSapien]

This is quite the frustrating thread.

You're welcome.

[Rerisen]

nothing said validates the part of the story that has Paxson as the physical aggressor
....
I don't know if you've ever claimed that any of this proves what Paxson did or did not do, and don't intend to go back and check.

I don't think I ever did, because I don't particularly care. That he apologized is enough to realize his actions were in the wrong, and to give factual weight to the story that was already out there doing damage to the Bulls reputation.

Those taking a look, and who are objective, will take it for what it is - a generic acknowledgement of wrongdoing.

We are all Bulls fans. What I care about is the team getting better. And therefore, looking attractive as an organization top to bottom to make that happen. Obviously this incident dents that. And Paxson apologizing makes him the only proven guilty party. Is the apology enough? I don't know. That he is still here, looks bad potentially I think.

I think its kind of irrelevant at this point if Vinny may also have shared some blame, nor do I really care about which posters on this board allow for that possibility.

[Professor Frink]

Had people like JVG painting Paxson as in the wrong, not have. You are using pre-apology examples to support your argument that an apology wasn't enough. That doesn't make sense.

Nope. JVG was on CTL after the Bulls noon press conference. He stuck to his guns about his statements and even admonished K.C. Johnson who tried to paint them as "strong comments". JVG corrected him that they were "obvious comments" as in his opinion how the situation would be viewed by anyone around the league.

Other comments, long before yesterday, had people expecting the Bulls had no other choice than to fire Pax. So obviously those opinions aren't going to change just upon him issuing an apology.

Link?

[RyGuy24]

Had people like JVG painting Paxson as in the wrong, not have. You are using pre-apology examples to support your argument that an apology wasn't enough. That doesn't make sense.

Nope. JVG was on CTL after the Bulls noon press conference. He stuck to his guns about his statements and even admonished K.C. Johnson who tried to paint them as "strong comments". JVG corrected him that they were "obvious comments" as in his opinion how the situation would be viewed by anyone around the league.

Other comments, long before yesterday, had people expecting the Bulls had no other choice than to fire Pax. So obviously those opinions aren't going to change just upon him issuing an apology.

Link?

Don't know if you're talking about the first paragraph or the second, but JVG's video is on the comcast sportsnet chicago page.

[Rerisen]

Had people like JVG painting Paxson as in the wrong, not have. You are using pre-apology examples to support your argument that an apology wasn't enough. That doesn't make sense.

Nope. JVG was on CTL after the Bulls noon press conference. He stuck to his guns about his statements and even admonished K.C. Johnson who tried to paint them as "strong comments". JVG corrected him that they were "obvious comments" as in his opinion how the situation would be viewed by anyone around the league.

Other comments, long before yesterday, had people expecting the Bulls had no other choice than to fire Pax. So obviously those opinions aren't going to change just upon him issuing an apology.

Link?

You can find JVG clips on CSN's website. The other comments were from an ESPN radio show, it could have been Ryan Rusillo's show, Simmons, one of those, I don't know the episode. But they were essentially in the same vein of the discussion between Simmons and Stein that I just quoted above.

[Professor Frink]

You can find JVG clips on CSN's website. The other comments were from an ESPN radio show, it could have been Ryan Rusillo's show, Simmons, one of those, I don't know the episode. But they were essentially in the same vein of the discussion between Simmons and Stein that I just quoted above.

Thanks. Just listened to the CSN interview. In response to KC, he talks about Pax going into the locker room after a tough loss and not supporting VDN when there were rumors midyear. He says nothing about the actual altercation or the apology. He does say in reponse to a question about how the organization is perceived (and this is a direct quote): "I think the perception always of the Chicago Bulls is strong." When asked about the desirability of the head coaching job, he says, "I think it's a great job."

That doesn't sound like it's a problem, so I guess that's one thing less to worry about.

[Rerisen]

That doesn't sound like it's a problem, so I guess that's one thing less to worry about.

He also said that he didn't think he was going to be under consideration (following from the discussion about his comments). In other words, as if he understood what he said might well remove the Bulls looking at him.

Then at the end when they asked him if he would be interested in the job if it was offered, he didn't offer the slightest encouragement that he would, but went back to defending his comments about the incident. Which could be a way of saying its a hurdle for him.

But hey, the guy in my avatar said he would be interested. They should give him a call.

[Professor Frink]

He also said that he didn't think he was going to be under consideration (following from the discussion about his comments). In other words, as if he understood what he said might well remove the Bulls looking at him.

Which isn't really relevant to the concern you raised earlier.

Then at the end when they asked him if he would be interested in the job if it was offered, he didn't offer the slightest encouragement that he would, but went back to defending his comments about the incident. Which could be a way of saying its a hurdle for him.

He also didn't say he wouldn't listen or even reiterate that he's not interested in coaching, something he told the 76ers front office.

[Rerisen]

He also didn't say he wouldn't listen or even reiterate that he's not interested in coaching, something he told the 76ers front office.

Yeah. Maybe he could be persuaded. I think he's a good coach. So hopefully the Bulls call him and don't write him off due to that he was rightly tough on them for the debacle.

Reports so far suggest they aren't interested though.

[kyrv]

That doesn't sound like it's a problem, so I guess that's one thing less to worry about.

He also said that he didn't think he was going to be under consideration (following from the discussion about his comments). In other words, as if he understood what he said might well remove the Bulls looking at him.

Then at the end when they asked him if he would be interested in the job if it was offered, he didn't offer the slightest encouragement that he would, but went back to defending his comments about the incident. Which could be a way of saying its a hurdle for him.

But hey, the guy in my avatar said he would be interested. They should give him a call.

Or not.

Which, by that I mean, you are grasping at straws now. You used JVG as 'evidence' against the Bulls, which Frink has debunked.

Now we need to figure out just how many times Simmons has built an NBA contender.

[kyrv]

You can find JVG clips on CSN's website. The other comments were from an ESPN radio show, it could have been Ryan Rusillo's show, Simmons, one of those, I don't know the episode. But they were essentially in the same vein of the discussion between Simmons and Stein that I just quoted above.

Thanks. Just listened to the CSN interview. In response to KC, he talks about Pax going into the locker room after a tough loss and not supporting VDN when there were rumors midyear. He says nothing about the actual altercation or the apology. He does say in reponse to a question about how the organization is perceived (and this is a direct quote): "I think the perception always of the Chicago Bulls is strong." When asked about the desirability of the head coaching job, he says, "I think it's a great job."

That doesn't sound like it's a problem, so I guess that's one thing less to worry about.

Frink delivers.

Well that settles that.

[Ralphb07]

Well JVG was on Waddle and Silvy today but I completely missed the interview. I want to see what he had to say with them. It sounded negative as hell yesterday about if he was interested but also to be on back to back days is kind of strange