Bears talk 2.0; Fields era begins for real for real

[fleet]

^^^^

First show me the proof or indicator that Dalton icreases chances to win. Then we’ll talk.

Besides necessary development, the other reason Fields must play is what Wanny said this morning. NAGY needs to show Pace and McCaskey that he is the right coach to develop Fields, and an offense for him. So far, not so much as Joe playcaller.

What kind of proof can you offer that one player is better than another in a situation like this, where one is a 10 year veteran and one has played 5 halves of NFL football? All the proof I need is that the coaches, who have seen both of them way more than any of us has, have decided that Dalton is better right now.

Coaches Anthony Lynn and Bill OBrian thought Tyrod Taylor and Tom Savage were better than their rookies, and we know how that turned out. There has been nothing presented by way of proof or indicators to repeat this talking point that Dalton increases win chances. Truth is anyway that you don’t know what Nagy has decided, but you make declarations about that as if they are facts. There are alternative theories on what Nagy has decided, no need to get back into that circular argument. Just look at the Dallas Cowboys data set from last season if you’re curious about Andy Dalton’s probable chances to win games for the Bears.

[IliketheBullsNBearstoo]

^^^^

First show me the proof or indicator that Dalton icreases chances to win. Then we’ll talk.

Besides necessary development, the other reason Fields must play is what Wanny said this morning. NAGY needs to show Pace and McCaskey that he is the right coach to develop Fields, and an offense for him. So far, not so much as Joe playcaller.

All the proof I need is that the coaches, who have seen both of them way more than any of us has, have decided that Dalton is better right now.

Oh yeah, I trust anything Nagy decides.

[Dresden]

^^^^

First show me the proof or indicator that Dalton icreases chances to win. Then we’ll talk.

Besides necessary development, the other reason Fields must play is what Wanny said this morning. NAGY needs to show Pace and McCaskey that he is the right coach to develop Fields, and an offense for him. So far, not so much as Joe playcaller.

What kind of proof can you offer that one player is better than another in a situation like this, where one is a 10 year veteran and one has played 5 halves of NFL football? All the proof I need is that the coaches, who have seen both of them way more than any of us has, have decided that Dalton is better right now.

Coaches Anthony Lynn and Bill OBrian thought Tyrod Taylor and Tom Savage were better than their rookies, and we know how that turned out. There has been nothing presented by way of proof or indicators to repeat this talking point that Dalton increases win chances. Truth is anyway that you don’t know what Nagy has decided, but you make declarations about that as if they are facts. There are alternative theories on what Nagy has decided, no need to get back into that circular argument. Just look at the Dallas Cowboys data set from last season if you’re curious about Andy Dalton’s probable chances to win games for the Bears.

There is no objective way to prove Dalton is better than Fields right now. Any metric I or anyone else could possibly post would just be countered by you with a different one proving the opposite. So what's the point? It's the coaches' decision, and they've made it. Disagree with that all you want.

[fleet]

What kind of proof can you offer that one player is better than another in a situation like this, where one is a 10 year veteran and one has played 5 halves of NFL football? All the proof I need is that the coaches, who have seen both of them way more than any of us has, have decided that Dalton is better right now.

Coaches Anthony Lynn and Bill OBrian thought Tyrod Taylor and Tom Savage were better than their rookies, and we know how that turned out. There has been nothing presented by way of proof or indicators to repeat this talking point that Dalton increases win chances. Truth is anyway that you don’t know what Nagy has decided, but you make declarations about that as if they are facts. There are alternative theories on what Nagy has decided, no need to get back into that circular argument. Just look at the Dallas Cowboys data set from last season if you’re curious about Andy Dalton’s probable chances to win games for the Bears.

There is no objective way to prove Dalton is better than Fields right now. Any metric I or anyone else could possibly post would just be countered by you with a different one proving the opposite. So what's the point? It's the coaches' decision, and they've made it. Disagree with that all you want.

For the record, no such positive metric for Dalton exists which could indicate he is a better bet. It easily could exist, if Andy Dalton actually didn't have a recent record, or scored well in the small sample size this year. So, we should retire the talking point for now that he is if there is nothing to go on.

[HearshotKDS]

Coaches Anthony Lynn and Bill OBrian thought Tyrod Taylor and Tom Savage were better than their rookies, and we know how that turned out. There has been nothing presented by way of proof or indicators to repeat this talking point that Dalton increases win chances. Truth is anyway that you don’t know what Nagy has decided, but you make declarations about that as if they are facts. There are alternative theories on what Nagy has decided, no need to get back into that circular argument. Just look at the Dallas Cowboys data set from last season if you’re curious about Andy Dalton’s probable chances to win games for the Bears.

There is no objective way to prove Dalton is better than Fields right now. Any metric I or anyone else could possibly post would just be countered by you with a different one proving the opposite. So what's the point? It's the coaches' decision, and they've made it. Disagree with that all you want.

For the record, no such positive metric for Dalton exists which could indicate he is a better bet. It easily could exist, if Andy Dalton actually didn't have a recent record, or scored well in the small sample size this year. So, we should retire the talking point for now that he is if there is nothing to go on.

Playing Devils advocate because i personally believe the team would be crazy to start Dalton if Fields is able to play - but there are plenty of metrics that Dalton is ahead of Fields in right now. Completion %, TD:Int ratio, Net Yards per attempt, sack %, to name some. I dont think they necessarily trump the upside that Fields has now, let alone the upside that his potential development brings, but there are some metrics in favor of Andy even if Dresden is unable to argue his own point.

[dougthonus]

^^^^

First show me the proof or indicator that Dalton icreases chances to win. Then we’ll talk.

Well, thusfar, Dalton has a QBR of 49.5 and Fields has one of 16.9. I'm not sure there is a better all in stat to try to gauge impact on winning. Super small sample size, but you asked for any metric. So far, the only real metric you would look at would say Dalton will considerably increase your odds of winning.

In the one game you saw them both play against the same defense, Dalton was just marching down the field looking really successful and Fields looked awful.

I can't say Dalton is conclusively better than Fields, but if someone held a gun to my head and both QBs were healthy and they were going to shoot me if the Bears lost, I'd rather have Dalton in there for a single game right now.

Besides necessary development, the other reason Fields must play is what Wanny said this morning. NAGY needs to show Pace and McCaskey that he is the right coach to develop Fields, and an offense for him. So far, not so much as Joe playcaller.

I agree Fields needs to play anyway. I don't care if the rest of the roster doesn't like it or pisses away a year either. Fields is hopefully your next 10 years of success and if he is a franchise QB will probably outlast every other player on the roster by 5+ years.

[fleet]

I prefer points on the scoreboard Doug

[dougthonus]

I prefer points on the scoreboard Doug

I prefer Fields

Dalton will probably get you more points though.

[fleet]

I prefer points on the scoreboard Doug

I prefer Fields

Dalton will probably get you more points though.

Was it Dalton’s 14 points in game one that makes you feel this way about Fields?

Small sample sizes aside, we already know what Dalton is. One of the worst QBs in football as we saw last season. At least the kid hasn’t proven he sucks yet. But who knows, maybe it will be 2015 all over again.

[TheAlanParsons]

I prefer points on the scoreboard Doug

I prefer Fields

Dalton will probably get you more points though.

Was it Dalton’s 14 points in game one that makes you feel this way about Fields?

Small sample sizes aside, we already know what Dalton is. One of the worst QBs in football as we saw last season. At least the kid hasn’t proven he sucks yet. But who knows, maybe it will be 2015 all over again.

I mean, do you disagree with Doug here? Not speaking long term but here and now at this stage of their careers you'd bet your life on Fields? I get that Dalton isn't setting the world on fire, and Fields might win that bet, but you might win going all in with a 2 7 too.

[fleet]

I prefer Fields

Dalton will probably get you more points though.

Was it Dalton’s 14 points in game one that makes you feel this way about Fields?

Small sample sizes aside, we already know what Dalton is. One of the worst QBs in football as we saw last season. At least the kid hasn’t proven he sucks yet. But who knows, maybe it will be 2015 all over again.

I mean, do you disagree with Doug here? Not speaking long term but here and now at this stage of their careers you'd bet your life on Fields? I get that Dalton isn't setting the world on fire, and Fields might win that bet, but you might win going all in with a 2 7 too.

Its a new era. If Nagy is calling the plays I wouldn’t let Fields dress for a game. With Lazor, I will take the kid. But lets be clear, this began because some people are reaching for hard conclusions based on their preferred opinions only. Nobody can just put it out there that Andy Dalton gives the Bears a better chance to win, like it is some sort of accepted fact. It sure aint.

[Dresden]

Coaches Anthony Lynn and Bill OBrian thought Tyrod Taylor and Tom Savage were better than their rookies, and we know how that turned out. There has been nothing presented by way of proof or indicators to repeat this talking point that Dalton increases win chances. Truth is anyway that you don’t know what Nagy has decided, but you make declarations about that as if they are facts. There are alternative theories on what Nagy has decided, no need to get back into that circular argument. Just look at the Dallas Cowboys data set from last season if you’re curious about Andy Dalton’s probable chances to win games for the Bears.

There is no objective way to prove Dalton is better than Fields right now. Any metric I or anyone else could possibly post would just be countered by you with a different one proving the opposite. So what's the point? It's the coaches' decision, and they've made it. Disagree with that all you want.

For the record, no such positive metric for Dalton exists which could indicate he is a better bet. It easily could exist, if Andy Dalton actually didn't have a recent record, or scored well in the small sample size this year. So, we should retire the talking point for now that he is if there is nothing to go on.

The thing is, coaches don't base their decisions on metrics. They base them on what they have seen every day in practice since Dalton and Fields starting practicing with the Bears. So don't try to say "since there is no metric" nonsense. It's a decision like every other one coaches make on who to play. And in this case, they have come up with Dalton, and no matter how much the fans and the media whine about it, he's going to stick with what his eyes tell him is the right choice.

[Dresden]

I prefer points on the scoreboard Doug

I prefer Fields


Dalton will probably get you more points though.

Was it Dalton’s 14 points in game one that makes you feel this way about Fields?

Small sample sizes aside, we already know what Dalton is. One of the worst QBs in football as we saw last season. At least the kid hasn’t proven he sucks yet. But who knows, maybe it will be 2015 all over again.

You're making my point. People have listed several "metrics" in Dalton's favor, and you just ignore them.

[fleet]

I prefer Fields


Dalton will probably get you more points though.

Was it Dalton’s 14 points in game one that makes you feel this way about Fields?

Small sample sizes aside, we already know what Dalton is. One of the worst QBs in football as we saw last season. At least the kid hasn’t proven he sucks yet. But who knows, maybe it will be 2015 all over again.

You're making my point. People have listed several "metrics" in Dalton's favor, and you just ignore them.

Your point is your opinion. It isn’t a fact yet you state it as such.

The best “metric” is the scoreboard. But let’s go with other stuff since you like.

Last year, Dalton had weapons including Amari Cooper, CeeDee Lamb, Michael Gallup and Ezekiel Elliott. In nine starts with the Cowboys, Dalton managed just 20 total completions longer than 20 yards. That’s good for just about two per game, and ranks 32nd out of qualified starters last season.

Even Sam Darnold with the Jets, Joe Burrow in half a season, Nick Foles in limited starts with the Bears, and Gardner Minshew in less than a full season threw for more of such completions than Dalton.

Taking it a step further, Dalton’s passing attack saw an explosive play on just seven percent of passing plays in 2020. This was tied for second-to-last in all of football.

On Sunday against the Lions, Fields and the Bears’ offense saw an explosive passing play on 28 percent of their pass plays — good for first in the NFL, through Sunday night.

The Bears also ran for the most overall yards in a game (188) in almost three years (Week 14, 2018).

For anyone that tracks the modern NFL offense state, Andy is decidedly out of sync with the times. As well as his benefactor Nagy. Chunks and explosive plays are the **** that is being effective.

At some point, trends become reality. Is Andy is not doing better this year

[fleet]

There is no objective way to prove Dalton is better than Fields right now. Any metric I or anyone else could possibly post would just be countered by you with a different one proving the opposite. So what's the point? It's the coaches' decision, and they've made it. Disagree with that all you want.

For the record, no such positive metric for Dalton exists which could indicate he is a better bet. It easily could exist, if Andy Dalton actually didn't have a recent record, or scored well in the small sample size this year. So, we should retire the talking point for now that he is if there is nothing to go on.

The thing is, coaches don't base their decisions on metrics. They base them on what they have seen every day in practice since Dalton and Fields starting practicing with the Bears. So don't try to say "since there is no metric" nonsense. It's a decision like every other one coaches make on who to play. And in this case, they have come up with Dalton, and no matter how much the fans and the media whine about it, he's going to stick with what his eyes tell him is the right choice.

The right choice for what? His crappy offense only, or the Bears? He claims the latter. More than a little national debate about it in NFL media. NFL. But if national NFL media is too remote, just check out Kruetz, Wannstedt, Brown, and Briggs.

[fleet]

There is no objective way to prove Dalton is better than Fields right now. Any metric I or anyone else could possibly post would just be countered by you with a different one proving the opposite. So what's the point? It's the coaches' decision, and they've made it. Disagree with that all you want.

For the record, no such positive metric for Dalton exists which could indicate he is a better bet. It easily could exist, if Andy Dalton actually didn't have a recent record, or scored well in the small sample size this year. So, we should retire the talking point for now that he is if there is nothing to go on.

Playing Devils advocate because i personally believe the team would be crazy to start Dalton if Fields is able to play - but there are plenty of metrics that Dalton is ahead of Fields in right now. Completion %, TD:Int ratio, Net Yards per attempt, sack %, to name some. I dont think they necessarily trump the upside that Fields has now, let alone the upside that his potential development brings, but there are some metrics in favor of Andy even if Dresden is unable to argue his own point.

Andy is definitely a fit for Nagy’s little dink offense, those categories in isolation are indicative of fit, more than convincing of a quarterback that will be a winner, that will outscore opponents. This Nagy offense is Garbaaaage, it doesn’t score, it doesn’t win, it never did. If you showed me those stats in the context of superior team offense statistics, then we have something convincing. We don’t, and we have a body of evidence in Dallas and Chicago that Dalton is questionable as a winner if he cannot go beyond what we are seeing now to make big individual plays. That is what I mean when I ask for an indicator that Dalton is some kind of given winner over Justin Fields.

[the ultimates]

Nagy has been shown to be a terrible offensive coach. So why should a person trust his decision to start Dalton if he is healthy? Now people want to talk about metrics like QBR which is becoming a legit but overrated end all be all stat for quarterbacks like PER is for basketball.

Turn on the tape. You can clearly see Fields has the better arm and can threaten all levels of the defense with it. Plus since somebody will say what about the offensive line. The Bear's line gave up fewer sacks and ran for more yards than the Ravens did against that same Detroit defense.

[dougthonus]

Was it Dalton’s 14 points in game one that makes you feel this way about Fields?

Small sample sizes aside, we already know what Dalton is. One of the worst QBs in football as we saw last season. At least the kid hasn’t proven he sucks yet. But who knows, maybe it will be 2015 all over again.

Dalton probably a bottom 10 caliber starting QB in the NFL right now, but he's probably a legit starting QB. I don't think Fields is.

Again, though sort of irrelevant. As I have stated I would start Fields even though I think he's worse, because that's how he will become better. I didn't like bringing Dalton onto the roster at all even before I knew what the draft would hold, and I would have named Fields the #1 QB the day you drafted him so he got all the 1st team reps the whole time.

I'm all for starting Fields.

Based on these things, I'd say Andy Dalton is more likely to get me a win at this exact moment in time:
Fields has played significant time in 3 games:
1: In a game both he and Dalton were in, Dalton looked considerably better
2: In the 2nd game, he had one of the worst games I have ever seen in my life from a QB and probably the lowest net passing yards I have ever seen.
3: His best game was a pedestrian outing against an awful defense

Again, all for starting Fields and who cares about the results because I'm hoping Fields is my guy for a 15 years, but gun to my head based on the results of next week, I'd say Dalton gives me a better chance to win. It isn't conclusive, just a subjective opinion based I've seen. As stated though, best chance to win a single game next week isn't a relevant factor to me in the decision process.

[dougthonus]

For the record, no such positive metric for Dalton exists which could indicate he is a better bet. It easily could exist, if Andy Dalton actually didn't have a recent record, or scored well in the small sample size this year. So, we should retire the talking point for now that he is if there is nothing to go on.

Metrics do exist.

QBR and Rating both show Dalton to be radically better than Fields with Dalton's numbers thusfar matching up against his career numbers (ie, not a fluke) and Fields numbers being god awful. I mean I don't think Fields metrics mean much based on sample size, but you asked for them. The metrics people use do exist, and Fields is absolutely destroyed in those numbers.

[mack2354]

With Montgomery injured our run game is going to be terrible. If we had a good o-line I'd feel better about running with 2nd/3rd string backs but we don't so I expect us to rely on the passing game to be productive. My guess is the defense knows that as well so we will see a lot of blitz packages. Dalton is better equiped to handle this. I love the rookie as much as the next fan but I want a "W" first and foremost and I think a healthy Dalton puts us in the best position "this month" to make that happen.

The ceiling for the offense is very low with Dalton but the floor for how bad the offense can be is the lowest with Fields. I'd start a healthy Dalton until Cohen or Montgomery get back to prevent our team from totally collapsing and to prevent Fields from getting killed. Bring Fields back in a month.