*UPDATE* Deeks article: How to offer Melo $20M, keep Taj etc

[Toulouse]

Someone hook me up with some and 1s!

And yeah, this is kind of jive we were constantly told Melo's decision would be made by the weekend. Well, it's almost freakin TUESDAY!

[Dominator83]

If its even possible to go the S&T route, we can't be stingy fellas. I don't so much wanna give up Mirotic, but wouldn't blink at tossing THREE 1st rounders their way. 2015, 17 and 19. Maybe Phil bites at that. 2019 is a long way away and a lot can happen between now and then. Could be potentially giving up a great pick, but that's the chance you take when going for the gold NOW

[kosmovitelli]

STEP TWO: A highly convoluted three team trade.

Bulls trade: Ronnie Brewer ($1,310,286 unguaranteed), Louis Amundson ($1,310,286 unguaranteed), Mike James ($1,448,490, unguaranteed), Greg Smith ($948,163), Tony Snell ($1,472,400), a signed-and-traded Kirk Hinrich (three year deal starting at $4,870,800 with 4.5% decreases totalling $13,954,842), two first round picks (see below) and $3.2 million in cash to New York. Also trade Mike Dunleavy Jr ($3,326,235) to Boston.

Bulls receive: A signed-and-traded Carmelo Anthony from New York. And something meaningless and arbitrary from Boston.

Knicks trade: A signed-and-traded Carmelo Anthony (four year deal starting at $19,686,660 with 4.5% raises for a total of $84,062,040) to Chicago.

Knicks receive: Hinrich, Snell, Smith, James, Amundson, Brewer, both first round picks and the cash.

It's indeed a creative trade proposal but unrealistic...for the Knicks to accept. It doesn't even work under cap rules.

What an amnesty of Boozer does do is give Chicago the room to incorporate players via sign and trade without going over the apron (the line $4 million above the tax threshold, estimated at being $81 million next year, which teams receiving players via sign and traded are not allowed to go over). Amnestying Boozer is not in this instance about cap space, but about cap flexibility. He could be used for cap space in other scenarios, but not here. Here, Chicago are a team over the cap making a trade.

It works for the Bulls but Knicks are currently over the apron (salaries : $90 million, apron : $81 million). Even if they cut their unguaranteed players (Brown, Odom, Tyler), they would remain over the apron. In this trade proposal, Knicks would be over the apron after the trade so trade is illegal.

Even if Knicks were under the apron after the trade, that trade proposal wouldn't make much sense for the Knicks because after you received a player in a sign and trade (Kirk Hinrich in your example), you're hard-capped at the apron ($81 million). The Knicks would have no interest in being hard-capped at the apron just to receive Kirk Hinrich (and a couple of draft picks) ! Also the possibility to use the non-taxpayer's MLE was mentioned as in incentive for the Knicks to make the trade. As the Knicks would be over or close to the apron after the trade, they wouldn't even have the possibility to use the non taxpayer's MLE ($5.3 million). As the apron is expected to be set at approx $81 million, Knicks would need to be at least at $75 million in order to use the full MLE. I'd say they'd have to be below $70 million in order to have some wiggle room.

The two first rounders are the meat of the deal for the Knicks and are in line with what Miami traded to receive Chris Bosh and LeBron James in their respective sign and trade deals in 2010. Chicago could send New York the 2015 first round pick from Sacramento that they received as a part of the Luol Deng trade, as well as their own 2015 first round pick, without falling foul of the Ted Stepien rule.

Those draft picks are almost useless.

1) The Bulls had the 19th pick in this year's NBA Draft. Add Melo and the Bulls first round pick next year could be in 25-30 range.

2) Sacramento had the 8th pick this year and they're still a bad team, there's a decent chance they will keep their first round pick the next three seasons and convey a second round pick instead in 2017.


The comparison with Miami in 2010 isn't a good one. Miami had enough cap room to sign Lebron and Bosh. That's why Lebron and Bosh agreed to sign with Miami. They didn't need the cooperation of Toronto and Cleveland. Dan Gilbert even claimed there would be no sign and trade agreement the night of the Decision show on ESPN. Lebron and Bosh were supposed to sign with the Heat via cap room but as the players wanted a sixth year and higher raises with Bird rights and Pat Riley thought he could start their contract at a lower salary and thus have enough flexibility to sign Mike Miller with cap room, the Heat had incentives to look for a sign and trade agreement and that's why they were ready to give up so many draft picks in the trades with Toronto and Cleveland. The Cavs and Raptors did it simply because Bosh and Lebron already agreed to sign with Miami and if they didn't pull the trigger then Bosh and Lebron would have signed with the Heat via cap room instead of sign and trade. It was over for them. Outside of the draft picks, Toronto and Cleveland were willing to participate because they each received a $14.5 million TPE. As both teams were over the cap, they valued that trade exception.

For the Bulls, it's a totally different situation. The new CBA eliminated the possibility for players to force a sign and trade in order to gain an additional year and higher raises. From a salary standpoint (and that's huge for Melo), he has no incentive to force a sign and trade. He may force a sign and trade only if he wants to help Chicago keep Taj Gibson and their other assets like Mirotic. And Melo's been pretty much selfish and followed the money during his career. The Bulls don't have enough cap room to sign Melo outright. They'd need to dump Boozer, Dunleavy and Gibson first. They're not an immediate threat for the Knicks until they amnesty Boozer and dump Dunleavy for cap room.

Even if this trade was doable under cap rules, Knicks would have zero incentive to listen. Even if Melo told the Knicks he wanted to join the Bulls. Phil Jackson would just need to call his bluff. If somehow Melo sacrificed his fifth season and higher raises and the Bulls created enough cap room to offer him the max, do people think the Knicks will cry because they missed an opportunity to add two meaningless first round picks (and one they may never even receive to begin with, Sacramento's pick) and the possibility to pay Kirk Hinrich $5 million ? Obviously no. It makes more sense to call the bluff and lose Melo for nothing if we miscalculated.

Overall I think the Bulls got it wrong. They should have negotiated a FAIR trade with the Knicks before the meeting with Melo, a trade where they would give the Knicks several assets. Then they could tell Melo, they already have a trade in place with the Knicks and they only need Melo's approval. Much easier for Melo to pull the trigger and make a decision immediatly when he knows the Bulls can offer him a max contract immediatly and his previous team would rather trade him than offer him a max contract. Melo could have commited as soon as the meeting with the Bulls was over if he knew Bulls and Knicks already had a sign and trade agreement in place. Not to mention it seems Phil Jackson may have welcomed that situation. It seemed he didn't want to offer Melo the max. At the same time he can't lose him to free agency, unless he was offered a fair trade for Melo, he had to offer him the max. In the end, it's a kind of situation where both teams won't accomplish their goal : Knicks will need to pay Melo more than they initially wanted and the Bulls won't get the player they needed.

[HINrichPolice]

It doesn't even work under cap rules.

...

It works for the Bulls but Knicks are currently over the apron (salaries : $90 million, apron : $81 million). Even if they cut their unguaranteed players (Brown, Odom, Tyler), they would remain over the apron. In this trade proposal, Knicks would be over the apron after the trade so trade is illegal.

I'm not Mark, but maybe you are under this impression because you're including Carmelo's salary as part of your salaries. What is his cap hold? Maybe using his caphold instead of what he would have received if he opted in is where the confusion is from.


Here's where I have NY's committed salary, although I don't know what Melo's cap hold is. Right now, it's just what his salary would have been if he had opted in.

Amar'e Stoudemire $23,410,988
Carmelo Anthony $23,333,405
Andrea Bargnani $11,500,000
J.R. Smith $5,982,375
Iman Shumpert $2,616,975
Pablo Prigioni $1,662,961
Tim Hardaway Jr $1,250,640
Jose Calderon $7,097,191
Shane Larkin $1,606,080
Wayne Ellington $2,771,340
Total = $81,231,955

Doesn't look too far off from the estimated apron of $81M.

[MGB8]

So Melo walks for nothing to LA.

[6_Rings]

if Knicks can unload Amare to the Sixers, writings on the wall. Melo's gone. they'll have a decent season with Jose+JR+Melo+Barg+Gasol than a mediocre one before the splurging the season after as promised to him.

[Magilla_Gorilla]

It's indeed a creative trade proposal but unrealistic...for the Knicks to accept. It doesn't even work under cap rules.

It works for the Bulls but Knicks are currently over the apron (salaries : $90 million, apron : $81 million). Even if they cut their unguaranteed players (Brown, Odom, Tyler), they would remain over the apron. In this trade proposal, Knicks would be over the apron after the trade so trade is illegal.

The only way the Knicks are over the apron is if you are including Melo's cap hold - which of course won't be there post trade. NY is only taking on 7.5 million in guaranteed salary in this trade - which added to the approx 64-65 million in salary they have right now leaves them well short of the apron. Even if you use the MLE and BAE you are roughly 1-2 million below the apron.

[Magilla_Gorilla]

if Knicks can unload Amare to the Sixers, writings on the wall. Melo's gone. they'll have a decent season with Jose+JR+Melo+Barg+Gasol than a mediocre one before the splurging the season after as promised to him.

They might - but its going to cost a hell of a lot more than Iman Shumpert. And NY doesn't have a whole hell of a lot else to offer.

[kosmovitelli]

It doesn't even work under cap rules.

...

It works for the Bulls but Knicks are currently over the apron (salaries : $90 million, apron : $81 million). Even if they cut their unguaranteed players (Brown, Odom, Tyler), they would remain over the apron. In this trade proposal, Knicks would be over the apron after the trade so trade is illegal.

I'm not Mark, but maybe you are under this impression because you're including Carmelo's salary as part of your salaries. What is his cap hold? Maybe using his caphold instead of what he would have received if he opted in is where the confusion is from.

His cap hold is his max salary (approx $22 million). $90 million includes his cap hold indeed (I added Sam Dalembert and the unguaranteed deals of Odom, Tyler and Brown as Phil Jackson may want to keep them for a future trade or even keep Odom, a player he likes) and when you replace Carmelo's outgoing salary with incoming salaries (Hinrich, Snell, Smith, James, Amundson, Brewer), you're still over the apron or too close to the apron. Frankly I didn't do the maths, you may be below the apron but you would be too close to the apron anyway and hard-capped because you received a player in a sign and trade (Kirk Hinrich). Anyway, the point wasn't so much the legality of the trade (you can always tweak to make it work under cap rules), it's the incentives for the Knicks to make such trade. They're close to zero IMO. Knicks have too many salaries and they can't accept being hard-capped at the apron, they need even more flexibility if Melo leaves. And I guess if Melo signs elsewhere Knicks would like to use the full MLE. If the Knicks let Melo walk for nothing, the team's payroll would be approx $68 million. They can use the MLE and remain far below the apron. Then it doesn't matter to be hard-capped.

[MGB8]

I don't think they would be over the apron because the Bulls would be sending 4 million or so in unguaranteeds who would be immediately cut. I don't think (but am not sure) that the apron is calculated this early.

The Knicks would also be taking back less salary than they would be sending out - 125% rule.

But an easier way would be to find a 3rd team that is way under the cap to take Boozer in a 3 way for some sort of mild benefit (because a one year rental of Boozer at 17 million, while a net negative, is only a mild net negative when a team needs to reach the floor, wants to preserve flexibility, and can use a rotation big who will be a good citizen and help younger players).

[MarkDeeks]

If its even possible to go the S&T route, we can't be stingy fellas. I don't so much wanna give up Mirotic, but wouldn't blink at tossing THREE 1st rounders their way. 2015, 17 and 19. Maybe Phil bites at that. 2019 is a long way away and a lot can happen between now and then. Could be potentially giving up a great pick, but that's the chance you take when going for the gold NOW

If it's a deal breaker, then yes. Shouldn't think it would be but yes.

[MarkDeeks]

It's indeed a creative trade proposal but unrealistic...for the Knicks to accept. It doesn't even work under cap rules.

Yes it does, as explained in the article.

It works for the Bulls but Knicks are currently over the apron (salaries : $90 million, apron : $81 million). Even if they cut their unguaranteed players (Brown, Odom, Tyler), they would remain over the apron. In this trade proposal, Knicks would be over the apron after the trade so trade is illegal.

No it's not, as explained in the article. If you want to be a pedant, then first off, the apron doesn't exist yet, so you're not over anything. Secondly, you're not over it. Cap holds for free agents are excluded when calculating proximity to the apron. So you aren't over it, and nor would you be after the trade, as was outlined at the end of the article, which I must remind you wasn't THAT long.

Even if Knicks were under the apron after the trade, that trade proposal wouldn't make much sense for the Knicks because after you received a player in a sign and trade (Kirk Hinrich in your example), you're hard-capped at the apron ($81 million).

Why? You adding a load of salary that'll ruin the 2015 plan or something? As was outlined in the article, which not only wasn't that long but also addressed all of these concerns, you figure to be way under it post-deal and can still use all of your exceptions. And if you still aren't happy with this, there is another possibility mentioned in the article, which wasn't that long and addressed these concerns, of rerouting Hinrich.

As the Knicks would be over or close to the apron after the trade, they wouldn't even have the possibility to use the non taxpayer's MLE ($5.3 million). As the apron is expected to be set at approx $81 million, Knicks would need to be at least at $75 million in order to use the full MLE. I'd say they'd have to be below $70 million in order to have some wiggle room.

As was demonstrated in the article, they would be exactly where you want them to be.

Those draft picks are almost useless.

1) The Bulls had the 19th pick in this year's NBA Draft. Add Melo and the Bulls first round pick next year could be in 25-30 range.

2) Sacramento had the 8th pick this year and they're still a bad team, there's a decent chance they will keep their first round pick the next three seasons and convey a second round pick instead in 2017.

If we're going to be this matter of fact about something unknown, it stands to your reason that non-lottery picks are useless. So your core four of Shumpert, Hardaway Jr, Antetokounmpo and Early are useless. Or are they steals? You need picks to get steals, sir. The Knicks are short of picks going forward. Ridiculously so, in facgt. The Bulls can help you with that. That is not useless.

From a salary standpoint (and that's huge for Melo), he has no incentive to force a sign and trade.

He has plenty. The Bulls cannot offer him as much as a free agent as he could get in a sign and trade, not because of the rules of a sign and trade, but because of their cap space situation. It was outlined in the article, which wasn't that long and addressed all of these questions.

Even if this trade was doable under cap rules, Knicks would have zero incentive to listen. Even if Melo told the Knicks he wanted to join the Bulls. Phil Jackson would just need to call his bluff. If somehow Melo sacrificed his fifth season and higher raises and the Bulls created enough cap room to offer him the max, do people think the Knicks will cry because they missed an opportunity to add two meaningless first round picks (and one they may never even receive to begin with, Sacramento's pick) and the possibility to pay Kirk Hinrich $5 million ? Obviously no. It makes more sense to call the bluff and lose Melo for nothing if we miscalculated.

Two second round picks, a backup point guard and the opportunity to overpay Jose Calderon for three years is a great deal. Two first round picks, a backup swingman and the right to overpay Kirk Hinrich for one year is a terrible deal.

[Indomitable]

It's indeed a creative trade proposal but unrealistic...for the Knicks to accept. It doesn't even work under cap rules.

Yes it does, as explained in the article.

It works for the Bulls but Knicks are currently over the apron (salaries : $90 million, apron : $81 million). Even if they cut their unguaranteed players (Brown, Odom, Tyler), they would remain over the apron. In this trade proposal, Knicks would be over the apron after the trade so trade is illegal.

No it's not, as explained in the article. If you want to be a pedant, then first off, the apron doesn't exist yet, so you're not over anything. Secondly, you're not over it. Cap holds for free agents are excluded when calculating proximity to the apron. So you aren't over it, and nor would you be after the trade, as was outlined at the end of the article, which I must remind you wasn't THAT long.

Even if Knicks were under the apron after the trade, that trade proposal wouldn't make much sense for the Knicks because after you received a player in a sign and trade (Kirk Hinrich in your example), you're hard-capped at the apron ($81 million).

Why? You adding a load of salary that'll ruin the 2015 plan or something? As was outlined in the article, which not only wasn't that long but also addressed all of these concerns, you figure to be way under it post-deal and can still use all of your exceptions. And if you still aren't happy with this, there is another possibility mentioned in the article, which wasn't that long and addressed these concerns, of rerouting Hinrich.

As the Knicks would be over or close to the apron after the trade, they wouldn't even have the possibility to use the non taxpayer's MLE ($5.3 million). As the apron is expected to be set at approx $81 million, Knicks would need to be at least at $75 million in order to use the full MLE. I'd say they'd have to be below $70 million in order to have some wiggle room.

As was demonstrated in the article, they would be exactly where you want them to be.

Those draft picks are almost useless.

1) The Bulls had the 19th pick in this year's NBA Draft. Add Melo and the Bulls first round pick next year could be in 25-30 range.

2) Sacramento had the 8th pick this year and they're still a bad team, there's a decent chance they will keep their first round pick the next three seasons and convey a second round pick instead in 2017.

If we're going to be this matter of fact about something unknown, it stands to your reason that non-lottery picks are useless. So your core four of Shumpert, Hardaway Jr, Antetokounmpo and Early are useless. Or are they steals? You need picks to get steals, sir. The Knicks are short of picks going forward. Ridiculously so, in facgt. The Bulls can help you with that. That is not useless.

From a salary standpoint (and that's huge for Melo), he has no incentive to force a sign and trade.

He has plenty. The Bulls cannot offer him as much as a free agent as he could get in a sign and trade, not because of the rules of a sign and trade, but because of their cap space situation. It was outlined in the article, which wasn't that long and addressed all of these questions.

Even if this trade was doable under cap rules, Knicks would have zero incentive to listen. Even if Melo told the Knicks he wanted to join the Bulls. Phil Jackson would just need to call his bluff. If somehow Melo sacrificed his fifth season and higher raises and the Bulls created enough cap room to offer him the max, do people think the Knicks will cry because they missed an opportunity to add two meaningless first round picks (and one they may never even receive to begin with, Sacramento's pick) and the possibility to pay Kirk Hinrich $5 million ? Obviously no. It makes more sense to call the bluff and lose Melo for nothing if we miscalculated.

Two second round picks, a backup point guard and the opportunity to overpay Jose Calderon for three years is a great deal. Two first round picks, a backup swingman and the right to overpay Kirk Hinrich for one year is a terrible deal.

Beautiful Sham
I mean Mark

[postcall]

So this is just another sign and trade right? Phil says no he speaks to Jeanie every day and does not believe them to be a threat. Even if he walks we own our pick this year and can prob get a top 5 guy since we will play some truly awful ball. If you can trade a top 5 pick then the S&T is palatable.

[MarkDeeks]

Frankly I didn't do the maths

Ah.

[Magilla_Gorilla]

So this is just another sign and trade right? Phil says no he speaks to Jeanie every day and does not believe them to be a threat. Even if he walks we own our pick this year and can prob get a top 5 guy since we will play some truly awful ball. If you can trade a top 5 pick then the S&T is palatable.

Something > nothing

[Indomitable]

So this is just another sign and trade right? Phil says no he speaks to Jeanie every day and does not believe them to be a threat. Even if he walks we own our pick this year and can prob get a top 5 guy since we will play some truly awful ball. If you can trade a top 5 pick then the S&T is palatable.

Something > nothing

Phil will get a lapdance out of it

[HINrichPolice]

Knicks fans,

Any feeling that Phil (not Dolan, but Phil) prefers NOT to give Melo the supermax and get some assets in return? Sure, he'd be happy to sign Melo at a cost of the normal max, but is there a feeling that the supermax would make Phil feel a little more limited in his ability to build the team the way he wants? I feel like Phil would much rather have a clean slate to build the team in his own image, that is of course if Dolan allows him.

[MrSparkle]

It's really bizarre that Phil/Jeanie are working opposite each other....

I mean, there is literally nothing stopping them from working together to sabotage opposite conference rivals. As in, they can work together to hamper the Bulls' recruitment of Melo, or NYK can thwart any LAL rival (Clippers, Mavs, Rockets, Spurs).

Both teams know that Melo would make us title-favorites, whereas honestly, NY/LA would be 4-7 seeds for the next 2 years, making Melo fairly irrelevant other than a player to fill the seats and sell jerseys with. Worst case scenario if these aggressive pitches would be Knicks get Chicago to shed excessive assets.

I'm honestly on board with finding a 3rd team to dump Taj to, keep Jimmy as the 2nd defensive stopper we need, and offering Melo the max while using MLE and S&T for Miro and a stop-gap PF.

[MGB8]

So this is just another sign and trade right? Phil says no he speaks to Jeanie every day and does not believe them to be a threat. Even if he walks we own our pick this year and can prob get a top 5 guy since we will play some truly awful ball. If you can trade a top 5 pick then the S&T is palatable.

Something > nothing

Not just something. 2-3 first round picks - one likely late lotto (Sacramento - a team that has a lot of talent, is maturing, might well trade for Rondo, and even though they'll have a hard time breaking into the playoffs in the West, with Cousins, Gay (who played great ball for them), Stauskas or McElmore, Landry/Derrick Williams/Thompson, and either Isaiah Thomas returning or potentially Rondo coming in... very likely will be better than the 10th worst team with so many teams at/near a full rebuild.

And the Bulls can also (assuming they arrange a 3 way trade) seperately trade unguaranteed contracts to take a JR Smith off the Knicks hands, or at least Pirgnoni's 1.5 million.