Would the Bulls 'reset' and trade Jimmy Butler this offseason ? What would Celtics need to give you?

[SteelerSpartan]

My fandom for this team turns into less grossman style rage for the FO if they trade butler.....

"I'm talking scorched earth for those mofos....I will massacre them!!!"

Obviously I'm joking a little bit.....

"But seriously.....ill massacre them"

[DuckIII]

Trade Butler and keep Hoiberg if they can't get along?

NBA coaches are a dime a dozen. Hoiberg has won squat, this is not Tom Izzo.

26 yr old, 2 way players that make the All Star team are once a decade guys you LUCK into.
We just fired a better coach than Hoiberg. Our assistants are probably better than Hoiberg.

That's not what I mean, though I wasn't clear. I'm not saying "Hoiberg and Jimmy don't get along, lets look to move Jimmy." I'm saying that the Bulls are on the cusp of rebuilding regardless, and that proposed Celtics package is huge. Given that context, and the fact that Jimmy and the coach don't get along (and that Jimmy isn't one of the rare untouchables), I'd do it. The Jimmy/Hoiberg thing is just a nudge in that direction. But its the current situation of the Bulls coupled with the Celtics package that would make me say "yes" to a blow up.

[Chi town]

I want tough winners that play team ball. Not ISO hero $hit.

Crowder and his best value contract in the league can come win here in Chicago. Smart will only get better too.

Ainge will try to pair Jimmy w Durant.

[CjayC]

As I said on the Celtics forum, Butler because of his skill-set is closer to Deng, another 2 time Bulls all-star, than Paul Pierce. Butler shouldn't age that well unless he really develops a consistent high volume 3.

Deng? Are you kidding me? You can't have watched Butler in the last two seasons.

Yeah Lu Deng is my guy, but he has never been able to bully his way to the basket like Butler, nor ever had the fluidity, and finishing ability. Never had even 'adequate' handles like Butler does either.

[SteelerSpartan]

FO thinking they can get rid of both thibs and butler in back to back years largely because they don't want anyone questioning their ego and authority....gtfo. Who the hell do they think they are....they've won exactly jack and s*** since Jordan left. they will get no such reset from me.

[Mr. Tibbs]

Obviously he's our best player and it'd be hard to deal him but I'm surprised the majority wouldn't do that deal..that's a haul. 4 picks including 2 from Brooklyn plus a solid wing player that can also run point? A proposal like that would have me seriously considering.

[FreakMaster]

My 1st thought was to trade Jimmy for Jae Crowder and some draft picks, but The C's want to pair the two together. Oh well.

[BuLLs>LiFe]

I honestly think that BOS package is pretty unrealistic. 2 potential lottery picks (one most likely in the top 5), two additional first round picks, a defensive wing on a great contract for the new CBA and even the salary filler is a serviceable big. All this for a great, but non-superstar player, that makes Boston probably a good deal better now, but still pretty far from a championship.

If it wasn't obvious enough, I would insta-accept this deal.

[mbsnmisc]

Celtics poster claims this was more than imagination at the deadline, but no idea of his credentials. Knowing what we know about how the Bulls operate and Jimmy's reported friction with the team, it wouldn't shock me.

Correct
Jimmy Butler was the target. A friend works in the front office, the deal agreed to was Jimmy Butler for Marcus Smart, Jae Crowder, and Nets ’16 Pick. Agreed to by Celtics and Bulls, but Bulls owner Jerry Reinsdorf vetoed the trade. The Celtics will try again for Butler in the offseason.

by greenteam17

This was just internet chaff. I would love Butler on the C's, but I don't know why you would trade a 27 year old worker signed for 4 more years. Dollar bills are worth a lot more than 4 quarters.

[pipfan]

I would do Butler and Dunleavy for Rozier, the BRK pick this year (let's say it's #4-Dunn), the Dallas Pick this year and the Boston pick in 2017 (swap rights with BRK)

This is the sign of the full rebuild-do it if necessary. Trade Rose, Taj and start over around young guys and picks. GS owns the league for now, why waste time

[Mr Funk]

No.

Bulls are not trading a 26 yr old 2 time All Star who is arguably the best defender in the league and jersey is now in the top ten of sales.

That's exactly what you hope one of those top picks turn into. This is why we maxed this kid out.

[Southpaw]

2016 Brooklyn pick unprotected (currently#4)
2016 Dallas pick
2016 Celtics pick
2018 Brooklyn pick unprotected
Avery Bradley
Amir Johnson (Salary)

for Jimmy Butler+ filler.

That's a great haul for Jimmy. I can't see the Bulls turning that down.

[dice]

Why trade the players on our team that we'd eventually need to find and acquire again?

By trading Jimmy and Derrick, that means we'd take draft picks, and try and draft players of their caliber. But why, when we already have those caliber of players?


Us Bulls fans are spoiled. You know how many teams and fans of the NBA would kill to have a PG and SG combo of Derrick Rose and Jimmy Butler???

Pass....

notice we don't have posters from other boards coming here and making trade proposals for derrick rose

So, that's only because of the injury risk. Let's say, he has no known risk of injury, he'd be just as coveted as Jimmy, but even more so. Guaranteed. Since he is, that lowers his value in the eyes of GMs and fans.

My point still stands. We've already got a leg up on so many other teams, since we do have 2 studs on the perimeter that are just entering their prime.

even in recent weeks when he's been playing much better, derrick has still been a very ordinary PG. he will very likely never again be a stud. and given that his knees are well past their prime, derrick himself is well past his prime. because his athleticism was what made him special. so to say that other teams don't value him as a franchise cornerstone simply because of the injury risk, whereas we should DESPITE the injury risk...the argument just doesn't hold water. it's mostly about on-court ability/performance

[dice]

2016 Brooklyn pick unprotected (currently#4)
2016 Dallas pick
2016 Celtics pick
2018 Brooklyn pick unprotected
Avery Bradley
Amir Johnson (Salary)

for Jimmy Butler+ filler.

That's a great haul for Jimmy. I can't see the Bulls turning that down.

i don't think people realize that it's essentially a greater than 10% chance at ben simmons PLUS a lot of other stuff. i would imagine that if ainge were to do a deal like this he'd make it simmons-protected. if the bulls did get this deal it would then make sense to trade the last year of amir johnson's deal for maybe yet another first rounder. 'cause we'd not be looking to contend next year, obviously

[Chicago-Bull-E]

The Bulls and Celtics will know where that pick lands by the time they can do a trade.

If it's Simmons, I do the deal. If it's at something like 4, I think long and hard about it, but probably don't do it. The talent level falls hard after Simmons IMO

[Shill]

A lot if it is about Hoiberg and Jimmy. If Jimmy is basically refusing to play the way Hoiberg wants the offense to run, and the two of them can't salvage the relationship, then absolutely without question I would do this deal.

If the problem is that the star doesn't want to play Hoiball. Then I trade Hoiball. It's easier to get an underachieving coach then it is to get a top 15 player

I don't think anyone is all that impressed with Hoiberg and it's not like Jimmy was causing problems under Thibs.

The Bulls have to make some determinations:

1. What style do we want to play?

It seems they want to play with motion and pace, e.g. Hoiball. That's a logical decision.

---------->

2. Do we have the personnel to play this style?

If Jimmy won't play Hoiball, that brings up another dilemma.

---------->

3. Will Jimmy buy into a motion offense under a different coach?

If the answer is yes (i.e. he simply doesn't respect Hoiberg), then MAYBE you consider replacing Hoiberg. If the answer is no...

---------->

4. Should we build our program around Jimmy playing a ton of iso-ball?

If no, then you may as well trade him.

[TheStig]

A lot if it is about Hoiberg and Jimmy. If Jimmy is basically refusing to play the way Hoiberg wants the offense to run, and the two of them can't salvage the relationship, then absolutely without question I would do this deal.

If the problem is that the star doesn't want to play Hoiball. Then I trade Hoiball. It's easier to get an underachieving coach then it is to get a top 15 player

I don't think anyone is all that impressed with Hoiberg and it's not like Jimmy was causing problems under Thibs.

Reasonable take. Here's my thing with it: I don't think Butler is SO good that you choose him over the coach AND that amazing package from the Celtics. Frankly, I'd strongly consider this deal even if Hoiberg and Jimmy were BFFs.

Sidenote: I wouldn't assume Jimmy wasn't causing problems with Thibs. He's one of the guys who wanted Thibs gone. But that is neither here nor there.

Butler isn't untradeable and if you're getting the farm you do it but the Celtics aren't offering it. It's just a fan boy.

But if I had to chose between Butler and Hoiberg, Hoiberg is going back to the corn fields. Butler is much harder to replace. And frankly, Hoiberg has done little good at this point. I wasn't excited about the hiring and now I've moved into the disappointed stage. In the NBA coaching world, he's got next year before he's on the chopping block.

[TheStig]

A lot if it is about Hoiberg and Jimmy. If Jimmy is basically refusing to play the way Hoiberg wants the offense to run, and the two of them can't salvage the relationship, then absolutely without question I would do this deal.

If the problem is that the star doesn't want to play Hoiball. Then I trade Hoiball. It's easier to get an underachieving coach then it is to get a top 15 player

I don't think anyone is all that impressed with Hoiberg and it's not like Jimmy was causing problems under Thibs.

The Bulls have to make some determinations:

1. What style do we want to play?

It seems they want to play with motion and pace, e.g. Hoiball. That's a logical decision.

---------->

2. Do we have the personnel to play this style?

If Jimmy won't play Hoiball, that brings up another dilemma.

---------->

3. Will Jimmy buy into a motion offense under a different coach?

If the answer is yes (i.e. he simply doesn't respect Hoiberg), then MAYBE you consider replacing Hoiberg. If the answer is no...

---------->

4. Should we build our program around Jimmy playing a ton of iso-ball?

If no, then you may as well trade him.

Your hypothetical is a bit off base. You build your system around your players strengths. If Greg Popovich magically showed up tomorrow to coach the Bulls, he wouldn't be implementing motion and pace on a grind it out group.

People act like Jimmy is the hold up in Hoiball. He's not. Gasol, Rose, Noah, Gibson, Brooks and Snell are not Hoiball players. They either hold the ball too much or aren't good quick decision makers.

Coaching is about getting the most out of the group you have. Hoiberg hasn't done that. And frankly doesn't have the reputation to come in and demand respect from all stars to get them to change their game. Respect is earned and not easily given.

[Shill]

If the problem is that the star doesn't want to play Hoiball. Then I trade Hoiball. It's easier to get an underachieving coach then it is to get a top 15 player

I don't think anyone is all that impressed with Hoiberg and it's not like Jimmy was causing problems under Thibs.

The Bulls have to make some determinations:

1. What style do we want to play?

It seems they want to play with motion and pace, e.g. Hoiball. That's a logical decision.

---------->

2. Do we have the personnel to play this style?

If Jimmy won't play Hoiball, that brings up another dilemma.

---------->

3. Will Jimmy buy into a motion offense under a different coach?

If the answer is yes (i.e. he simply doesn't respect Hoiberg), then MAYBE you consider replacing Hoiberg. If the answer is no...

---------->

4. Should we build our program around Jimmy playing a ton of iso-ball?

If no, then you may as well trade him.

Your hypothetical is a bit off base. You build your system around your players strengths. If Greg Popovich magically showed up tomorrow to coach the Bulls, he wouldn't be implementing motion and pace on a grind it out group.

People act like Jimmy is the hold up in Hoiball. He's not. Gasol, Rose, Noah, Gibson, Brooks and Snell are not Hoiball players. They either hold the ball too much or aren't good quick decision makers.

Coaching is about getting the most out of the group you have. Hoiberg hasn't done that. And frankly doesn't have the reputation to come in and demand respect from all stars to get them to change their game. Respect is earned and not easily given.

But that's exactly what Pop did. The Spurs were a grind-it-out team that dumped the ball into the post.

And the Bulls had a grind-it-out coach, but they ultimately decided to move on.

[Bomba Navarro]

Your hypothetical is a bit off base. You build your system around your players strengths. If Greg Popovich magically showed up tomorrow to coach the Bulls, he wouldn't be implementing motion and pace on a grind it out group.

People act like Jimmy is the hold up in Hoiball. He's not. Gasol, Rose, Noah, Gibson, Brooks and Snell are not Hoiball players. They either hold the ball too much or aren't good quick decision makers.

Coaching is about getting the most out of the group you have. Hoiberg hasn't done that. And frankly doesn't have the reputation to come in and demand respect from all stars to get them to change their game. Respect is earned and not easily given.

Very good post.

In fact, out of all the players you named, Butler is probably the one who could adapt the best to Hoiball if Fred got him to buy in.

Either way I agree that it's a coach's job to make the most out of the group he has, and Fred hasn't done that so far. If Hoiball doesn't suit the group you have, try something else, but don't let players run the team.