PG: Well at least we are getting healthy

[WindyCityBorn]

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Yeah, the Finnisher is back!

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Lauri aggressive = Great..Finnisher!!
LaVine aggrease = ball hog/losing basketball

What a joke.

Also talk is cheap. I hope he backs it up though because I want all Bulls to succeed....

[dice]

Honestly I thought we were past having internal pissing matches about whether Zach is holding the team back. Monday just showed that those people were just waiting for the moment to start the garbage again. It literally took ONE game.

except that that never happened. you're creating paranoid scenarios in your own head. we have multiple examples in this thread of people riding to his defense when the team plays poorly. but nobody after the last game said "see, zach sucks." one guy's obviously sarcastic post consisted of two words: "trade zach?" zach backers like you took the bait and whined about it. that was the extent of the so-called anti-zach rhetoric

You need to go back and re-read that thread Dice. They aren't that long anymore. You couldn't have missed it.

i did. in THIS thread zach backers came out on page 1. in the last thread one guy made a joke directed at the zach backers and they took the bait. i went through the first 3 or 4 pages and not a single person made the argument that the team was better w/o zach. but the backers sure did take offense to the joke!

[GameBredAPBT]

Yeah I guess I’m on board with keeping Zach. Hes really really good you’re not gonna just find anyone better. I think he’ll keep improving. Question is, are the Bulls capable of providing him with the necessary tools to succeed?

[GameBredAPBT]

Bingo. If Zach were a legit #1 Guy, he’d have the Bulls at .500 or over right now, despite the bum teammates & despite the non existent coaching. He isn’t, not right now. I personally think he can get there, seeing as how he’s a late bloomer compared to a lot of other top guys his age, but I dunno if it’ll be with the bulls

If they’re dead set on having him play out his contract & seeing if he “gets it” over the next two seasons, then they *must* get some better passers on the team & a new coach. Can’t stress this enough

I dont even expect .500. If Zach was good as advertised nobody else cares, they would be 8th seed or 1game behind minimum.
Why is BKN at 7th seed despite 50% of their cap wasted this season and having role players? Guys like Din and Levert are producing similar while making peanuts. Maybe, hes a 3rd option on a championship contender like Bucks if I am being very generous but having him as number 1 option is the worst since you cant even tank properly yet get these garbage #7 picks in a row.
He produces a lot but most of it has to do with usage and actually makes the team worse like you saw with post ACL Rose Bulls.

You guys are using strawmen. The fact that Zach isn't good enough to be a #1 doesn't change the fact that he is our best offensive option. Get better players to push him down the pecking order where he belongs. This all or nothing talk is just a garbage argument. He is being paid like the 2nd/3rd option he should be.

Only LaVine haters are still talking about whether he is a #1. Most of us have already moved on from that idea. If you are saying he cannot function without being the #1 option that is pure biased speculation because there is no one on this team he should defer too. Lauri had his opportunity this year and **** the bed. Porter is a limited role player. Carter doesn't project as much on offense. Coby White is literally the only other guy showing ability to take over games and he has had a very inconsistent rookie season.

Quite frankly it is really ridiculous that LaVine is the focus of anyone's criticism when he is BY FAR our best player. That may not mean much, but blame GarPax for that being case.

Agreed. I’m down to keep him. But is Chicago capable of putting this thing together ?

[Stratmaster]

they HAVE BEEN better when he hasn't been on the court. that is statistical fact. but there is random variation involved along with unit performance factors. for example, a good player on a bad unit is going to have a negative +/-. or if he's a starter and the bench performs well the same thing will happen

And, this is a big one that is never mentioned, the player who plays the most minutes is inevitably tied to the team's overall performance and has little chance to deviate from it. So based on those variables the team hasn't necessarily been better when he is off the court.

it has nothing to do with the team's overall performance. it has to do with the team's performance when he's out there compared to when he isn't. the team is awful when he's on the bench and even worse when he's in the game

He has been playing 39 of 48 minutes. Your sample size with him off the court is 9 mpg when the other team is resting its best players.

I can't believe how many people just don't get that individual +/- stats are useless.

[dice]

And, this is a big one that is never mentioned, the player who plays the most minutes is inevitably tied to the team's overall performance and has little chance to deviate from it. So based on those variables the team hasn't necessarily been better when he is off the court.

it has nothing to do with the team's overall performance. it has to do with the team's performance when he's out there compared to when he isn't. the team is awful when he's on the bench and even worse when he's in the game

He has been playing 39 of 48 minutes. Your sample size with him off the court is 9 mpg when the other team is resting its best players.

I can't believe how many people just don't get that individual +/- stats are useless.

which is why i said that it's not a reason to say the team is better off without him!

he's averaging 34.8 minutes, by the way

[Stratmaster]

except that that never happened. you're creating paranoid scenarios in your own head. we have multiple examples in this thread of people riding to his defense when the team plays poorly. but nobody after the last game said "see, zach sucks." one guy's obviously sarcastic post consisted of two words: "trade zach?" zach backers like you took the bait and whined about it. that was the extent of the so-called anti-zach rhetoric

You need to go back and re-read that thread Dice. They aren't that long anymore. You couldn't have missed it.

i did. in THIS thread zach backers came out on page 1. in the last thread one guy made a joke directed at the zach backers and they took the bait. i went through the first 3 or 4 pages and not a single person made the argument that the team was better w/o zach. but the backers sure did take offense to the joke!

We are referring to the PG thread from last game, not this one.

[johnnyvann840]

I'm not pro nor anti-Lavine.

A coach needs to have the team run sets and plays and chew out Lavine when he's jacking play after play. The dude can score, but you obviously can't treat him like Luka or Kobe.

Exactly. Regarding being open to trading Zach. Problem we have is that role is going to be harder to change than most realize. Hard to take the ball away. You just can't win in this league playing like that with huge usage.

The best team in the league also has the highest usage player in the league. I expect I am misinterpreting your point. Can you clarify?

That player is a big positive, he's not Zach. How much clearer can it be?

[dice]

You need to go back and re-read that thread Dice. They aren't that long anymore. You couldn't have missed it.

i did. in THIS thread zach backers came out on page 1. in the last thread one guy made a joke directed at the zach backers and they took the bait. i went through the first 3 or 4 pages and not a single person made the argument that the team was better w/o zach. but the backers sure did take offense to the joke!

We are referring to the PG thread from last game, not this one.

yes, i know. and it's not until page 4 of that thread where someone takes a legitimate shot at zach...after his backers bitched up a storm about an obvious joke on page 1

[Stratmaster]

it has nothing to do with the team's overall performance. it has to do with the team's performance when he's out there compared to when he isn't. the team is awful when he's on the bench and even worse when he's in the game

He has been playing 39 of 48 minutes. Your sample size with him off the court is 9 mpg when the other team is resting its best players.

I can't believe how many people just don't get that individual +/- stats are useless.

which is why i said that it's not a reason to say the team is better off without him!

he's averaging 34.8 minutes, by the way

Recently he has been playing 38 or 39 minutes unless there is garbage time... and garbage time will really screw up plus minus

[bulls_troy]

And, this is a big one that is never mentioned, the player who plays the most minutes is inevitably tied to the team's overall performance and has little chance to deviate from it. So based on those variables the team hasn't necessarily been better when he is off the court.

it has nothing to do with the team's overall performance. it has to do with the team's performance when he's out there compared to when he isn't. the team is awful when he's on the bench and even worse when he's in the game

He has been playing 39 of 48 minutes. Your sample size with him off the court is 9 mpg when the other team is resting its best players.

I can't believe how many people just don't get that individual +/- stats are useless.

All analytics are useless IMO

[FranchisePlayer]

Read on Twitter

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Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

Yeah, the Finnisher is back!

Watch on YouTube

Lauri aggressive = Great..Finnisher!!
LaVine aggrease = ball hog/losing basketball

What a joke.

Also talk is cheap. I hope he backs it up though because I want all Bulls to succeed....

I so pity you. You've repeatedly told me you've put me on ignore, yet you constantly come and reply to my posts with some scrappy gibberish. LOL. Why? Be consistent and ignore then, how old are you? I have zero respect for posters who say one thing and do the other. As for your blind hatred for Markkanen... very transparent. Cut the crap wanting every Bulls to succeed.

[dice]

He has been playing 39 of 48 minutes. Your sample size with him off the court is 9 mpg when the other team is resting its best players.

I can't believe how many people just don't get that individual +/- stats are useless.

which is why i said that it's not a reason to say the team is better off without him!

he's averaging 34.8 minutes, by the way

Recently he has been playing 38 or 39 minutes unless there is garbage time... and garbage time will really screw up plus minus

ok, but the stats are based on the entire season. he was +2.7 on/off last season and -5.5 this season. i don't think a single person would argue that he has been significantly worse this season, so there's a lot of random variation in the stat from year to year and this year's number is thus hardly evidence that the team is better off w/o him

[dice]

it has nothing to do with the team's overall performance. it has to do with the team's performance when he's out there compared to when he isn't. the team is awful when he's on the bench and even worse when he's in the game

He has been playing 39 of 48 minutes. Your sample size with him off the court is 9 mpg when the other team is resting its best players.

I can't believe how many people just don't get that individual +/- stats are useless.

All analytics are useless IMO

that you, wilbon?

nba front offices pretty much universally disagree with you at this point

[WindyCityBorn]

Yeah, the Finnisher is back!

Watch on YouTube

Lauri aggressive = Great..Finnisher!!
LaVine aggrease = ball hog/losing basketball

What a joke.

Also talk is cheap. I hope he backs it up though because I want all Bulls to succeed....

I so pity you. You've repeatedly told me you've put me on ignore, yet you constantly come and reply to my posts with some scrappy gibberish. LOL. Why? Be consistent and ignore then, how old are you? I have zero respect for posters who say one thing and do the other. As for your blind hatred for Markkanen... very transparent. Cut the crap wanting every Bulls to succeed.

Blind hatred for Lauri? No. Extreme disappointment with his play thisseason? Yes.

It's quite clear you want Lauri to be man no matter what even though he has failed spectacularly. While LaVine did his part and gets no credit. You are right should stop opening your comments. Done.

[Stratmaster]

He has been playing 39 of 48 minutes. Your sample size with him off the court is 9 mpg when the other team is resting its best players.

I can't believe how many people just don't get that individual +/- stats are useless.

All analytics are useless IMO

that you, wilbon?

nba front offices pretty much universally disagree with you at this point

Efficiency stats vs. Usage taking into account player role is valuable. But there context is still the most important part.

+/- for 5 man units can be beneficial for assessing how a complete squad performs together. But you really have to be careful about sample size. Context is still important here. Your starting 5 generally are playing more minutes against the better players. You can't compare 5 players against 5 completely different players. You know there isn't much similarity to that context.

I laugh every time Boylen looks at his stat sheet in a news conference and quotes the +/- for an individual player who played 10 minutes. What an idiot. Even if it was meaningful, if you just coached a game and you have to look at the stat sheet before you comment to decide who played well... you shouldn't be a head coach.

[WindyCityBorn]

Exactly. Regarding being open to trading Zach. Problem we have is that role is going to be harder to change than most realize. Hard to take the ball away. You just can't win in this league playing like that with huge usage.

The best team in the league also has the highest usage player in the league. I expect I am misinterpreting your point. Can you clarify?

That player is a big positive, he's not Zach. How much clearer can it be?

You have no proof that it will be hard to take the ball away. No one on this team is better than him or even close enough to justify it. Until such a situation presents saying what won't work is useless. Fact of matter is he doesn't need to control the ball with extremely high usage to score a lot. It just works that way playing with bums. In alternate universe where we had say Anthony Davis, Trae Young or Luka Doncic do you seriously believe there would be a problem because he wouldn't want to give up the ball? Be real.

Zach cannot co-exist with the imaginary star we don't have yet...is that really your argument for trading him?

[wolffy]

Zach takes a lot of shots cuz zach has to take a lot of shots. Just like at times White has to take a lot of shots. This team has terrible offense, no initiators, or better shot creators. Complain when Zach starts passing the ball to Sato with 2 seconds on the shot clock 15 times per game. Zach very may be more selective with a better cast, until then slamming him for shooting too much is silly.

[WindyCityBorn]

Zach takes a lot of shots cuz zach has to take a lot of shots. Just like at times White has to take a lot of shots. This team has terrible offense, no initiators, or better shot creators. Complain when Zach starts passing the ball to Sato with 2 seconds on the shot clock 15 times per game. Zach very may be more selective with a better cast, until then slamming him for shooting too much is silly.

Coby and Zach are literally both high volume iso scorers and the only guys that have impressed on offense at any point this season. Either they are just remarkably similar or maybe those are the best shots available because of the coaching and players around them?

[GameBredAPBT]

Zach takes a lot of shots cuz zach has to take a lot of shots. Just like at times White has to take a lot of shots. This team has terrible offense, no initiators, or better shot creators. Complain when Zach starts passing the ball to Sato with 2 seconds on the shot clock 15 times per game. Zach very may be more selective with a better cast, until then slamming him for shooting too much is silly.

Coby and Zach are literally both high volume iso scorers and the only guys that have impressed on offense at any point this season. Either they are just remarkably similar or maybe those are the best shots available because of the coaching and players around them?

Theres most certainly some Dame/CJ potential to be mined there. I think Coby could better than CJ, or at least have better defense

That’s why people keep clamoring for them to start together & allow them to form chemistry