2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th: PT 2

[Bulldog23]

I like Hayes because he can run point, shoot, pass, and defend. He has good size and played in a competitive league. I think that AK values that..my biggest issue with Deni is that he seems like Vladimir Radmanovic...which is more of stretch four With some skill..plus not sure if he can defend. The Bulls have plenty of big men...that’s why I hesitated in selecting for the bulls.

[MGB8]

Check the below youtube on Wiseman, even early on. Is this a guy who looks like he has a slow jump or particularly heavy feet?

Watch on YouTube

[Andi Obst]

What I've heard about him, athletically, is that he can get up and down the court really well.

Oh, he can. The thing is, people see him running in a straight line, see that he's large and still really fast and say "yes, he's an athletic freak", case closed. It's not that easy. Lateral movement and footwork are super important to be a good defensive center (or wing) and Wiseman clearly has a lot to work on there. Straight line speed isn't worth nearly as much. I also don't think he's the quickest jumper out there, which is an issue on both ends.

Okongwu is better in the more important areas IMO, so I have him over Wiseman by quite a lot.

[Grodoboldo]

Stepien is one of those sites that has him with an elite frame but not elite athleticism.

Athleticism / Frame Overview: Good, not great vertical athlete. Tight hips and “heavy” feet moving laterally – not particularly quick. Long-loader and doesn’t rise well in crowded spaces...

Defense in Space: Definitely needs to work on footwork. Prone to crossing feet, hands sometimes go out if someone drives resulting in fouls or a lack of contest. Very wide base too, which should probably be brought in a bit as this might help his lateral movement and change of directions. Hips aren’t slow, but they’re not quick either. Has “heavy feet.” However, there were a few solid defensive possessions in space moving his feet against smaller players or a big facing up.

What I've heard about him, athletically, is that he can get up and down the court really well. I don't know how that converts to the NBA - whether it becomes more or less valuable - but straight-line speed may be his biggest competitive advantage.

His straight line speed is really good, but his side-to-side is not. So he's supposedly very good in transition offense, but guarding in space could be a significant problem. That doesn't seem like a winning recipe for today's NBA.
Of course the small sample size murks the water, but I would not be thrilled if we picked him, at least at this stage.

[Chi town]

Yep, that's my list still, and it has been for a several weeks now. I'm all in for either one, because they both fit a need as well as have ton of upside to grow. I'm sure I'm in the minority, but I still think both of them have star potential.

I believe the same. I like Deni and his edge and player type better than Hayes.

I can see Billy Donavan coaching his new 3 guard lineup of Lavine Coby Hayes just like he did w CP3 SGA and Shroeder.

I’ve imagine that line up too w/ Lauri as Gallanari & WCJ as Adams.

I think Lauri is an awful fit with that cast of 20ppg scorers. In that scenario we need another 3D wing that plays PF and can pass. Kinda like a Jerami Grant type.

Or if Lauri becomes a Korver sharpshooter then he fits. But he just can't stand in the corner as a spacer. He needs to run off screens like. Spo uses Robinson and Herro but as a PF. Our league hasn't seen that before. A 7footer that plays like a SG. Lauri has to learn a stepback, how to shoot over people, and how to draw 3pt fouls.

[Chi town]

I like Hayes because he can run point, shoot, pass, and defend. He has good size and played in a competitive league. I think that AK values that..my biggest issue with Deni is that he seems like Vladimir Radmanovic...which is more of stretch four With some skill..plus not sure if he can defend. The Bulls have plenty of big men...that’s why I hesitated in selecting for the bulls.

Vlad. Always a Euro comp.

Deni can actually handle and playmake. Rad could shoot.

[Chi town]

Reposting here what I just wrote in the Killian Hayes thread:

Just listened to the newest Cash Considerations podcast this morning (it's on https://www.stitcher.com/podcast/jason-patt/cash-considerations-a-chicago-bulls-podcast/e/77575425 if you wanna check it out) with PD Web (he's @abovethebreak3 on Twitter) and they did a deeper analysis on Hayes' game.

The gist:
- Loudicrous if he falls out of the top4.
- Terrific creator out of the P&R as a primary ball handler.
- Thinks his pull-up shot is very translatable.
- Believes in his 3pt shot, thinks the C&S problem is fixable.
- More athletic than he looks.
- Pretty good defender.

He also has a very good article on his Patreon (link if you want to pay the guy his dues: https://www.patreon.com/user?u=24373441&fan_landing=true ) about Hayes.
Link:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1K4pWh6JnouEkE_cwfZRpNV40ncR-DHouWCWJuU6cQ70/edit?usp=drivesdk

I’m a believer in his shot, playmaking, and him growing into his body and playing more athletic.

Think it was Fischella who said he has heard it’s Deni then Hayes for AK.

I’d be happy with either one.

I'm also happy with either, but I'm significantly higher on Hayes. A two-way primary ball handler with great positional size is harder to find.

What I like about him most is his PNR potential. Secondly, is his versatility due to size defensively.

Still have Deni with a higher ceiling due to his player prototype.

[LateNight]

Yeah - Wiseman is interesting as a prospect just because so much of it is based off potential. In case anyone is interested, here are brief summaries of a bunch of other breakdowns of his game (not including the Stepien piece posted earlier). Pretty much solidifies the critiques people have made on here so far. Everybody loves his physical profile - but here's what they think of the rest of his game.

Wiseman Scouting: 

Rob Dauster: "One of the knocks on him is that he has a tendency to drift in and out of games, that he doesn’t always utilize the physical gifts he has... Scouts have had questions about his competitive drive and how much he loves the game for years."

Kevin O'Connor: "plagued by an inconsistent motor and shaky production throughout high school... built like an ideal modern big... projects as a versatile scorer who can throw down lobs at the rim and space the floor. But he’s a subpar shooter... lacks discipline, often jumping at pump fakes, and fundamental skills like poor footwork and awareness need work."

Pat McMahon:  "Wiseman’s biggest weakness is defending the pick and roll, which is a huge concern for NBA teams. He was really exposed for this in the Oregon game early on in the college basketball season, displaying both slow feet and poor awareness... Wiseman isn’t a very good jump shooter yet, and will need to extend his range"

Chase Whitney: "Lateral quickness isn’t a “strength” per se, but it’s good enough, and his straight-line speed is top-tier for a center... What sticks out the most is his lack of polish or “feel” while he’s on the court... He isn’t effective in any way out on the perimeter, especially as a shooter or ball-handler."

Dean Demakis: "Wiseman looks like he belongs nowhere near the top 3 based on his biggest statistical sample from AAU, where he posted poor rebound, steal, and assist:TOV ratios... (BUT) he showed huge improvements in the glimpses we have seen since high school... Most notably over the 4 games he went from a poor rebounder to a beast on the glass. And he was a highly effective finisher who avoided turnovers"

From High School Reports --

Rafael Uehara:  "So-so screener who walks or lumbers into setting picks but does widen his base to try drawing contact and disrupt the on-ball defender... Hasn’t yet developed or wasn’t asked to deploy more advanced techniques... Wasn’t put into pick-and-roll regularly... Doesn’t play with particularly impressive intensity crashing the offensive glass ...  Hasn’t yet developed power moves or the ability to create space via physicality. Hasn’t shown anything in terms of being able to get his defender out of position with skill via head fakes, shot fakes or pivot moves. Doesn’t have an impressively quick trigger but has a fluid enough release for a seven-footer... Hit eight of 16 three-point attempts in 10 appearances with AAU squad Bluff City Legends at the Nike EYBL Circuit last season...  Gets beat down the court by opposing big men in transition at times; More of often than not attentive to his boxout responsibilities"

Kris Fenrich: "The player I’ve watched is wildly inconsistent, a player capable of flattening oppositions like that giant lizard-dinosaur in one sequence and morphing into an overdribbling, fade-away shooting wannabe Kobe Bryant (but without the touch)"


[These guys have varying degrees of experience, but I thought the analysis gives a solid insight into who Wiseman is as a player.]

[Grodoboldo]

What I like about him most is his PNR potential. Secondly, is his versatility due to size defensively.

Still have Deni with a higher ceiling due to his player prototype.

Why do you believe Deni's prototype as a player is superior?
I'm asking this because I feel the exactly opposite. I love his tools, but I don't see him as a primary playmaker, I can't envision him efficiently creating for himself, and I don't think he's gonna become a lockdown defender, so I end up casting him as a good forward (he's not agile enough to be a Wing, and I don't think he's strong enough to be a center) without any elite skill. What am I missing here?

[MrFortune3]

I just don't see a scenario where Wiseman falls to the Bulls. I would absolutely love him on the Bulls but he fits the needs of Charlotte too perfectly for them to pass up.

The issue for Wiseman is that he only got to show 3 games of footage to scouts. He was great in HS and he was very good in his 3 games at Memphis. He needs seasoning but you are looking at a instant starter with the potential to be a defensive anchor while you allow him to develop his offensive game.

Theres no issue with Wiseman esp at 4. If he had 10 games, he would go number 1 in such a weak draft and I wouldnt waste my time bc he would be already gone at this range. Personally, I think he is D rose 2.0 the greatest thing Memphis produced after pooh. He just oozes that superstar aura the same way Rose did and has that similar personality gives me nostalgia. If Ayton went number 1 over euromvp Doncic theres no reason why Wiseman shouldnt go number 1 when theres no Doncic in this draft.

I think either him or Ball falls considering the amt of negativity they have been receiving and Deni has gotten a lot of attention.

I definitely agree with you about Wiseman going #1 if he had a larger sample size of college games.
I think he will end up as one of the top 2 players in this draft when it's all said and done.

[CjayC]

What I like about him most is his PNR potential. Secondly, is his versatility due to size defensively.

Still have Deni with a higher ceiling due to his player prototype.

Why do you believe Deni's prototype as a player is superior?
I'm asking this because I feel the exactly opposite. I love his tools, but I don't see him as a primary playmaker, I can't envision him efficiently creating for himself, and I don't think he's gonna become a lockdown defender, so I end up casting him as a good forward (he's not agile enough to be a Wing, and I don't think he's strong enough to be a center) without any elite skill. What am I missing here?

That's where I'm at with Deni too. Seems like a good piece of the puzzle, but not necessarily a foundational type of piece. Add in that there's little precedent for a player whose a bad FT shooter becoming the kind of knockdown shooter that we need him to be.

[tunit213]

I may get hate on this but hear me out first...

I really think the Bulls should trade the 4th pick and a future 1st in order to move up and grab LaMelo Ball. This would get us a starting 5 of LaMelo/Coby/Zach/Lauri/Wendell. As it stands now Zach and Coby look to be amazing scorers/shooters, and with Lauri in the lineup we have plenty of offense. We don't need someone taking shots away from those 3, but instead setting them up for even better shots. We are in desperate need of a playmaker and LaMelo seems to be that guy. Plus he is MUCH more skilled and much more quick than his brother and has now grown to 6'8".

Lastly, we would have enough young talent to develop as it is in LaMelo, Coby, Zach, Lauri, Wendell, Gafford, Hutchinson, and the 44th pick. We don't need another young player to develop, so trading a future 1st is something we can live with in order to get our guy. Then in 2022 we can work on getting a star or 2 like AD etc. There is only so much young players one team can develop, and 8 young players is plenty enough.

Heres a vid of LaMelos progress. His ball handling and passing ability is special and easily has the highest upside in this draft. It's time the Bulls take a risk. He is exactly what we have been looking for.

Watch on YouTube

[TheSuzerain]

It's Okongwu fellas. Hop on board. The choice is clear.

If he's not there then I'd certainly try to trade down but still grab one of Haliburton or Hayes.

[Grodoboldo]

I may get hate on this but hear me out first...

I really think the Bulls should trade the 4th pick and a future 1st in order to move up and grab LaMelo Ball. This would get us a starting 5 of LaMelo/Coby/Zach/Lauri/Wendell. As it stands now Zach and Coby look to be amazing scorers/shooters, and with Lauri in the lineup we have plenty of offense. We don't need someone taking shots away from those 3, but instead setting them up for even better shots. We are in desperate need of a playmaker and LaMelo seems to be that guy. Plus he is MUCH more skilled and much more quick than his brother and has now grown to 6'8".

Lastly, we would have enough young talent to develop as it is in LaMelo, Coby, Zach, Lauri, Wendell, Gafford, Hutchinson, and the 44th pick. We don't need another young player to develop, so trading a future 1st is something we can live with in order to get our guy. Then in 2022 we can work on getting a star or 2 like AD etc. There is only so much young players one team can develop, and 8 young players is plenty enough.

Heres a vid of LaMelos progress. His ball handling and passing ability is special and easily has the highest upside in this draft. It's time the Bulls take a risk. He is exactly what we have been looking for.

Watch on YouTube

I strongly disagree.

- The main problem with Ball's offense is not taking away shots from other players. It's that if he doesn't improve his shooting and finishing significantly, teams will just sag off him and dare him to shoot. See what happens to Simmons in the playoffs. And Simmons is a much, MUCH better player than Ball, not only right now, but than what his more probable outcome is.

- We do NOT have enough young talent on this team. Coby is a mediocre ball-handler who had a TS% of .506 (yeah, he played great his last 10 games, but that's not enough sample size yet); Lauri regressed into a 14/6 season where he disappeared for entire games; Zach is a phenomenal scorer who is so bad at defense that he was barely a positive on court for the first time in his career. Also, he's not suited for a primary playmaker role. Carter and Hutchinson can't even be fairly assessed because they spent most of their two seasons hurt. Even then, when they did play, they did not improve at all under coach numbnuts (ok, maybe that's not entirely on them).

The point is we're not in a place where we can give up assets unless it's for a generational talent. And as much as I don't mind picking LaMello if he's available at #4 (though I prefer Hayes),
I think the chances of him becoming such a talent are much too scarce to risk it.

[PlayerUp]

I may get hate on this but hear me out first...

I really think the Bulls should trade the 4th pick and a future 1st in order to move up and grab LaMelo Ball. This would get us a starting 5 of LaMelo/Coby/Zach/Lauri/Wendell. As it stands now Zach and Coby look to be amazing scorers/shooters, and with Lauri in the lineup we have plenty of offense. We don't need someone taking shots away from those 3, but instead setting them up for even better shots. We are in desperate need of a playmaker and LaMelo seems to be that guy. Plus he is MUCH more skilled and much more quick than his brother and has now grown to 6'8".

Lastly, we would have enough young talent to develop as it is in LaMelo, Coby, Zach, Lauri, Wendell, Gafford, Hutchinson, and the 44th pick. We don't need another young player to develop, so trading a future 1st is something we can live with in order to get our guy. Then in 2022 we can work on getting a star or 2 like AD etc. There is only so much young players one team can develop, and 8 young players is plenty enough.

Heres a vid of LaMelos progress. His ball handling and passing ability is special and easily has the highest upside in this draft. It's time the Bulls take a risk. He is exactly what we have been looking for.

Watch on YouTube

I strongly disagree.

- The main problem with Ball's offense is not taking away shots from other players. It's that if he doesn't improve his shooting and finishing significantly, teams will just sag off him and dare him to shoot. See what happens to Simmons in the playoffs. And Simmons is a much, MUCH better player than Ball, not only right now, but than what his more probable outcome is.

- We do NOT have enough young talent on this team. Coby is a mediocre ball-handler who had a TS% of .506 (yeah, he played great his last 10 games, but that's not enough sample size yet); Lauri regressed into a 14/6 season where he disappeared for entire games; Zach is a phenomenal scorer who is so bad at defense that he was barely a positive on court for the first time in his career. Also, he's not suited for a primary playmaker role. Carter and Hutchinson can't even be fairly assessed because they spent most of their two seasons hurt. Even then, when they did play, they did not improve at all under coach numbnuts (ok, maybe that's not entirely on them).

The point is we're not in a place where we can give up assets unless it's for a generational talent. And as much as I don't mind picking LaMello if he's available at #4 (though I prefer Hayes),
I think the chances of him becoming such a talent are much too scarce to risk it.

As do most of us.

LaMelo is not worth a future 1st + #4 to move up a couple spots.

[CjayC]

Yeah I'm fine with Melo if he falls to us, but it's a massive project to undertake. I mean we're still likely to be trash, and next year's 1-10 is deeper. Even if the pick had protection on it. That's the move you make for Doncic or Trae Young. Lamelo's a bigger project.

[Chi town]

What I like about him most is his PNR potential. Secondly, is his versatility due to size defensively.

Still have Deni with a higher ceiling due to his player prototype.

Why do you believe Deni's prototype as a player is superior?
I'm asking this because I feel the exactly opposite. I love his tools, but I don't see him as a primary playmaker, I can't envision him efficiently creating for himself, and I don't think he's gonna become a lockdown defender, so I end up casting him as a good forward (he's not agile enough to be a Wing, and I don't think he's strong enough to be a center) without any elite skill. What am I missing here?

That's where I'm at with Deni too. Seems like a good piece of the puzzle, but not necessarily a foundational type of piece. Add in that there's little precedent for a player whose a bad FT shooter becoming the kind of knockdown shooter that we need him to be.

The 2 way wing that can handle, create, score, and playmake is the most valuable asset in the league right now. 6'6-6'8 helps them play small and big at the same time. The right size and profile to have an advantage against bigger and smaller players. The right coaches know how to use these advantages. Tatum, Brown, Luka, Kawhi, PG13, Lebron.

Now, as small as the NBA is going with the Rockets and Dubs not even playing a C in crunch time it could be said the next wave of innovation and play style will be shorter, faster, stronger players like what we saw with OKC employing three PG's. This is why I am in on Killian Hayes if Deni isn't there.

[Ice Man]

The 2 way wing that can handle, create, score, and playmake is the most valuable asset in the league right now. 6'6-6'8 helps them play small and big at the same time. The right size and profile to have an advantage against bigger and smaller players. The right coaches know how to use these advantages. Tatum, Brown, Luka, Kawhi, PG13, Lebron.

I can never find the quote but I swear that all the way back in the Eighties Pat Riley said that the future of the NBA was positionless basketball, starting five 6' 8" guys who could run, dribble, score, and defend. I remember that argument when he made it and thought "Wow." Good call, Pat.

[Grodoboldo]

Why do you believe Deni's prototype as a player is superior?
I'm asking this because I feel the exactly opposite. I love his tools, but I don't see him as a primary playmaker, I can't envision him efficiently creating for himself, and I don't think he's gonna become a lockdown defender, so I end up casting him as a good forward (he's not agile enough to be a Wing, and I don't think he's strong enough to be a center) without any elite skill. What am I missing here?

That's where I'm at with Deni too. Seems like a good piece of the puzzle, but not necessarily a foundational type of piece. Add in that there's little precedent for a player whose a bad FT shooter becoming the kind of knockdown shooter that we need him to be.

The 2 way wing that can handle, create, score, and playmake is the most valuable asset in the league right now. 6'6-6'8 helps them play small and big at the same time. The right size and profile to have an advantage against bigger and smaller players. The right coaches know how to use these advantages. Tatum, Brown, Luka, Kawhi, PG13, Lebron.

Now, as small as the NBA is going with the Rockets and Dubs not even playing a C in crunch time it could be said the next wave of innovation and play style will be shorter, faster, stronger players like what we saw with OKC employing three PG's. This is why I am in on Killian Hayes if Deni isn't there.

Got it. Yeah, I like his fundamentals too. I just don't think he has as much potential as a creator as a PG13 or Kawhi type, but I agree that if Hayes, Ball and Edwards are not there, he's very enticing.

[CjayC]

Why do you believe Deni's prototype as a player is superior?
I'm asking this because I feel the exactly opposite. I love his tools, but I don't see him as a primary playmaker, I can't envision him efficiently creating for himself, and I don't think he's gonna become a lockdown defender, so I end up casting him as a good forward (he's not agile enough to be a Wing, and I don't think he's strong enough to be a center) without any elite skill. What am I missing here?

That's where I'm at with Deni too. Seems like a good piece of the puzzle, but not necessarily a foundational type of piece. Add in that there's little precedent for a player whose a bad FT shooter becoming the kind of knockdown shooter that we need him to be.

The 2 way wing that can handle, create, score, and playmake is the most valuable asset in the league right now. 6'6-6'8 helps them play small and big at the same time. The right size and profile to have an advantage against bigger and smaller players. The right coaches know how to use these advantages. Tatum, Brown, Luka, Kawhi, PG13, Lebron.

Now, as small as the NBA is going with the Rockets and Dubs not even playing a C in crunch time it could be said the next wave of innovation and play style will be shorter, faster, stronger players like what we saw with OKC employing three PG's. This is why I am in on Killian Hayes if Deni isn't there.

No doubt, every team can use a Hedo or a Gallinari. I see him more among those guys, except there's a projection with his shooting ever panning out, than I do on the level of wing creators you mentioned.