Patrick Lee Williams Comps?

[nekorajo]

It's tough to figure Patrick out, because he is so lackadaisical. No floor burns, no emotional expression, no commitment. If you prick him, does he bleed? There's no doubting the potential he has, but that means nothing without desire.

[nekorajo]

It's tough to figure Patrick out, because he is so lackadaisical. No floor burns, no emotional expression, no commitment. If you prick him, does he bleed? There's no doubting the potential he has, but that means nothing without desire.

[dougthonus]

So people saying bust or Pat doesnt have this or that is so ridiculously short sighted. If thats the case Mikal Bridges and many others are also busts when clearly they arent.

If you mean that Pat isn't a bust yet, sure. He's also not a success yet. Most guys who go on to be busts fit his profile, not the profile of someone with great rookie stats (though MCW and Tyreke Evans might be a couple examples of that).

He absolutely could be good because some players (and hopefully he is one) just make radical improvements over time, but there's not really any special reason to think that vs the next guy.

[TheJordanRule]

His pre-draft hype? You make it sound like he’s OJ Mayo. Most of us in here didn’t hardly discuss him at all as a prospect and he was considered a surprise pick at 4 in lots of articles/summaries that I read. He was one of the least hyped, least discussed prospects projected in top 10.

He’s about the most “anti-hyped” top 5 pick you will ever see.

Should probably flip it to say post-draft, pre-season hype, where a guy no one liked became super liked after we read all the puff pieces. Obviously if NBA talent evaluators wanted him, there is reason to buy into some of that. We also know this was a poor draft, so there is reason to think we shouldn't overly buy into it in terms of total upside.

I'm hoping he becomes a valuable two way player, even if he's just good on both ends and not elite on either. Relative to the draft quality, I think that'd be a good outcome.

Your point about draft quality is a salient one. You were a Haliburton, Vassell and Hayes proponent if I remember correctly. If you're salty about Haliburton, you have every right to be. But the quality of the last draft is a big reason why Williams was so beloved in the summer. Amidst a collection of weaker lottery prospects, Williams was the sneaky upside pick, and I believe he still is. While Vassell and Hayes have flashed about as much as Williams, Williams is a year younger than both of them. Sure, he's been this lame ass unimpactful mediocre 3 and D guy so far, but he's a teenager. We didn't draft him for his polish and his experience because he had next to none. I believe a large reason why NBA scouts and GMs bought into William's draft stock was because of his work ethic. Execs could see how much Williams had progressed between his freshman college season and the draft, which only happened after an extended layoff. I never expected Williams-- or anyone drafted at #4 or below-- to blow the doors off the hinges in the NBA in their first year. While Haliburton has managed to prove all of his doubters wrong, he's the exception that proves the rule. Almost every other prospect after #4 has been a flash in the pan at best. Even Lamelo, the #3 pick whose performance far surpassed expectations and made him seem like a lock for ROY during the first half of the season, ended up stumbling into those major injury bug concerns that were so evident leading up to the draft.

[Southpaw]

First person that came to mind with the OP's description was Snell. Tho Snell was clearly a lesser prospect, both of them had all the tools to fulfill their draft promise (Snell as a 3D wing / Pat as a 2-way star wing) but they seem to lack the aggression/fire to impose their will on the game

As for someone who has tons of promise/potential but was held off by passivity but turned out to be successful, maybe Tmac? Not a clean comp, to be sure, but Tmac similarly deferred to his veteran teammates a lot in his rookie season. But his highs were much higher than Pat's and his impact on the game was felt, specially on the defensive end. Pat is almost a ghost out there sometimes with his impact on the game.

While I agree that Pat has yet to show any elite NBA skill that could be his calling car]d, I feel like his ability to create plays for other is being underrated. He's shown solid decision making and court vision whenever he's in a position to make a play when the defense has collapsed on him. I think he has nice potential as a secondary playmaker as a roller.

[qianlong]

I could say Otto Porter Jr. Big three tweener who could do a bit of everything, defend and shoot but was considered too passive. I remember wizards fans complaining he had to take a bigger role. Not a star but he was a very good player before injuries.

[Leslie Forman]

There are exceptions if you want to go needle hunting. So the real question is Pat a needle or a piece of hay. There are reasons to think he might be a needle, but they're mainly built off of pre-draft hype, and the fact we want him to be. I doubt fans of other teams are going "wow, Pat Williams, future star, got to see if he's available".

This is why at this point, just hanging onto him and praying he's more Jimmy Butler/Jaylen Brown than Marvin Williams/Michael Kidd-Gilchrist is probably the only option.

There have been a few flashes, but honestly…Pokusevski is basically a baby deer on ice who has played way fewer minutes and he's shown a million more flashes. I really liked the pick at the time but seeing everything Karnisovas has done since has made me really question his player evaluation abilities.

I'll still wait and see but yeah…his complete lack of aggression is really discouraging right now. If he was a total dog on defense who loved playing hard and tough like early Jimmy did that'd help but he doesn't really even seem to have that.

[Michael Jackson]

There are exceptions if you want to go needle hunting. So the real question is Pat a needle or a piece of hay. There are reasons to think he might be a needle, but they're mainly built off of pre-draft hype, and the fact we want him to be. I doubt fans of other teams are going "wow, Pat Williams, future star, got to see if he's available".

This is why at this point, just hanging onto him and praying he's more Jimmy Butler/Jaylen Brown than Marvin Williams/Michael Kidd-Gilchrist is probably the only option.

There have been a few flashes, but honestly…Pokusevski is basically a baby deer on ice who has played way fewer minutes and he's shown a million more flashes. I really liked the pick at the time but seeing everything Karnisovas has done since has made me really question his player evaluation abilities.

I'll still wait and see but yeah…his complete lack of aggression is really discouraging right now. If he was a total dog on defense who loved playing hard and tough like early Jimmy did that'd help but he doesn't really even seem to have that.

I think that nails it. If he showed it own defense and was just a killer out there on that side it is easier to say he will translate it to the offensive side as he grows. Since he is passive on both sides of the ball its hard to see. Maybe it is there, and his lack of confidence gets thrown to the side, but you would feel it more if he was just a killer on D. Lets say he played with even Arch's intensity everyone would feel more comfortable about his future. Right now we just have to say welllllll he is young and in a role that's over his head and hope he grows into it. He could but its far from a lock.

[dougthonus]

Different position but reminds me of Wendell Carter if you want to look at recent Bulls. Solid athlete but not great burst (needed to load up to make athletic moves), solid defender (but not an impact/aggressive one), passive on offense, decent base of skill everywhere, but not great anywhere.

It wouldn't have surprised me if Wendell went on to be very good if his shot had just come around a bit better, and he improved his aggressiveness. Heck, I still think he will probably go on to be pretty solid overall and be a starting caliber player, but not a guy that screams star potential.

Pat Williams feels similar to me. I initially thought he was a high ceiling swing for the fences pick, but watching him more, I think he was actually more of a higher floor, lower ceiling pick.

[Michael Jackson]

I like the WCJ comp, but WCJ had some swagger which P Will does not. He regressed with his confidence (as did Lauri) so I guess the hope is PWill does the 180 of that.

[ChettheJet]

People believe what they want to believe but I have basically already proved that Pat is exactly in line with his peers. Billy said it last night. People just want players to be the prime versions of themselves right away. It just doesnt work that way. This was in regards to Julius Randle. Saying that he is a completely different player now than when he entered the league 7 years ago.

So people saying bust or Pat doesnt have this or that is so ridiculously short sighted. If thats the case Mikal Bridges and many others are also busts when clearly they arent.

I'm with you on the short sighted club that shouts so loud. Some posters think anybody that isn't an instant all star is a bust. I think almost everybody posting about how bad PW is needs to start their F'n billboard campaign to fire the front office because he was the first big move they made and you're saying they blew it/ And you should be riding Billy Donovan too because he decided to start Patrick from day one and he's still doing it. You must all think he really doesn't know what he's doing.

It was a shock that Williams started opening night but I'm sure the staff thought Porter would finally show up and be healthy, Hutchison would decide he really wanted to be an NBA player. Coby White could be a PG, Satoransky would be more aggressive, Garrett Temple and Denzel Valentine would be ready on opening night. And Carter would work out as a PF because he could start to hit the 3 ball. When basically none of that was happening in the pre season there was nothing to lose starting PW and hoping whoever ended up coming off the bench would get their game going and pass him up. Carter, Porter and Hutchison were bad enough to get traded.

Part of why PW isn't featured much in the offense is Markkanen, Young, Satoransky are all on the bubble of, do we keep them for their last year, extend any of them, buy them out or let them walk. In a perfect world they would show you that they're too good to let go and better than who is on the market to replace them. That isn't happening. Temple looks like a guy you'd like to bring back for the low money. Valentine is really no better than he was before getting the one year deal. Arci plays a smart game but he is no threat to score and you see no team defends him off the ball.

So I've got no problem with what Billy is doing with Williams up to now, but I think the time has come to make him part of the offense and not just the weak side floor spreader.

Jeremi Grant is one and we saw Julius Randle the last game. If anybody actually watched did you see his game? He gets the ball when it comes over the time line and tries to score, probes, tries to penetrate or just shoots but it's one on one to see if he can get a basket. If he gets stopped he just gives up the ball and it's up to the other four guys to try and get something with the time left. I don't think they ran a play for him, I don't think he paid any attention to where the other players were so he could create for somebody else. That works for a bad team like in DET with Grant and the Knicks with Barrett and Rose can compensate but that's a guy rolling up stats like he never did anywhere else because at all of his other stops Randle had to work within the framework of an offense.

[thedarkstark]

Marvin Williams

[PrimzyBulls81]

Im getting bored every day with he is only 19yrs old, f... that, show some passion,energy,drive,more hustle, more offensive game!?
Does he want to stay in the league and contribute and show himself he is capable of many things or he will just cruise like dead horse?
I hate passive guys, no matter the sport, no matter the age.. show at least desire to be part of the league!

[Michael Jackson]

Im getting bored every day with he is only 19yrs old, f... that, show some passion,energy,drive,more hustle, more offensive game!?
Does he want to stay in the league and contribute and show himself he is capable of many things or he will just cruise like dead horse?
I hate passive guys, no matter the sport, no matter the age.. show at least desire to be part of the league!

I 100% get that but one can’t discount the 19 year old thing. Most people would be overwhelmed at 19 competing against the elite of the world in their industry. Especially someone who didn’t even start in college. I will give him more role because of age and inexperience. If he comes in tentative next season it gets a little iffy though. Jerome Williams the JYD showed passion and aggression for the game but it was all fake hustle I’d rather pat be good than a guy who fakes being good.

[Dieselbound&Down]

Tony Snell was my first thought. He had a lower ceiling but that guy exuded passiveness from the time he stepped on the summer league floor and it never changed.

Tracy McGrady was passive his first couple years but he was a really immature straight out of high school player who had trouble with depression/anxiety/uncertainty as he was getting his feet wet. He averaged 7 ppg, 9.3 ppg then 15.4 ppg. But he put those stats playing a lot fewer minutes than PW for his first year or two. PW puts up 9.1 ppg on 28 minutes while TMac put up 7 ppg on 18 mpg.

To answer your question, McGrady was the only one that I can think of that played uncertain, arguably passive, for a couple of years and then blossomed. That was more due to his game and mentality needing to catch up with his body and I'm not sure he was really "passive" in the way PW seems to be. I guess we hope that is the case with PW.

There isn't much precedent for someone playing like PW to light a fire and take off, at least from my limited memory.

[DuckIII]

Different position but reminds me of Wendell Carter if you want to look at recent Bulls. Solid athlete but not great burst (needed to load up to make athletic moves), solid defender (but not an impact/aggressive one), passive on offense, decent base of skill everywhere, but not great anywhere.

It wouldn't have surprised me if Wendell went on to be very good if his shot had just come around a bit better, and he improved his aggressiveness. Heck, I still think he will probably go on to be pretty solid overall and be a starting caliber player, but not a guy that screams star potential.

Pat Williams feels similar to me. I initially thought he was a high ceiling swing for the fences pick, but watching him more, I think he was actually more of a higher floor, lower ceiling pick.

Hmmm. Physically and skill wise I consider Patrick a superior prospect, but there are a lot more parallels here to which I had never given any thought. Really interesting call here Doug.

[dougthonus]

Hmmm. Physically and skill wise I consider Patrick a superior prospect, but there are a lot more parallels here to which I had never given any thought. Really interesting call here Doug.

I think Pat has more skills than Carter, but he also plays a higher skill position. I'm not sure he has more skills relative to his position than Carter did relative to his, but that also depends if you peg him as a 3 or 4. As a 4, his skill level is probably stronger relative to 4s than it would be as a 3 relative to 3s.

Physically, I'd also agree he's probably a bit better too, but both seem to have slow athleticism to me, like they both can get high in the air but need to load up a bit to do it and lack a bit of burst. Probably because they're both pretty big strong guys for their size and the quick leapers are usually much smaller guys except for the absolute freaks like Zion/LeBron/etc..

Either way, I know the comparison feels bad because Carter didn't work out for us, and I don't mean it like Williams can't work for us. I liked Carter a lot as a prospect.

[dougthonus]

I like the WCJ comp, but WCJ had some swagger which P Will does not. He regressed with his confidence (as did Lauri) so I guess the hope is PWill does the 180 of that.

Yeah, Carter seemed to just break mentally over two and a half years here. He was most aggressive and exciting in his rookie season.

[DuckIII]

Either way, I know the comparison feels bad because Carter didn't work out for us, and I don't mean it like Williams can't work for us. I liked Carter a lot as a prospect.

I liked Carter as a prospect too. I still do, actually, and expect him to have a solid NBA career as a starting center.

Nonetheless, he did demonstrate some of the exact same passive traits as Patrick and they do exhibit some similar physical traits relative to their positions.

[Dieselbound&Down]

There was one name that popped in my head and I finally remembered enough to track down his career.

Terrence Morris played at Maryland and his sophomore year he was wingman to Steve Francis on a stacked team. He was 6'9", fluid athlete and projected as a top 5 pick. He didn't take the PW route and instead went back for his junior and senior years. Turned out he was too passive and was picked mid 2nd round after his senior year. Played parts of 3 seasons in the league then had a nice, quiet career in Europe for 6-7 years.

If PW went back to school for this past year, I wonder if he would have ended up like Morris. A good athlete, looks the part of a basketball player, but just not mentally cut out to be a top player and compete in the NBA. If PW never comes good, that is my comp.