Pippen Writing Memoir, Tells His Side of Story

[dice]

So you think Malone, Ewing, Shaq, Dirk, Steph and Kawhi are/were all better than Pippen?

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Seriously?

Pippen was a great player, but he's comfortably worse than all of those players you mentioned.

he's most certainly not comfortably worse than ewing

[dice]

I think Shaq, Kawhi, Steph, and Dirk aren't questions to me. Malone / Ewing are more questions to me, but I think they're probably better. I'm 45, so I watched those guys largely as a teenager, and have less faith in my opinion at that age when I also didn't watch the league as a whole as much as I did later.

Kawhi has carried a team to a title with pedestrian talent around him and won another title as the best player with very good talent around him. Shaq has made every team he's been on a contender by his mere presence, that isn't even close. Steph was the #1 guy on a team with two of the best seasons ever, Dirk carried a team to a championship and another NBA finals appearance and more or less a career full of playoff runs without a real star next to him.

I don't think Pippen could have done any of those things.

Ewing/Malone are tougher to rate because they didn't ever win the big one, but I think both those guys made their teams perennial contenders that Pippen probably wouldn't have done in the same situation.

Shaq was big. That was his skill. The refs let him get away with the basketball equivalent of murder. He started in an era that favored big men and he was the biggest of them. He has one season where he carried a team, just like Pippen. His real success came playing alongside superstars. In my opinion he is the most overrated player in NBA history.

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This is an egregious take.

Pippen is nowhere near Shaq as a player.

And Shaq was clearly the best player during the Lakers 3-peating.

not by the end. and it's closer than you think w/ scottie

[Michael Jackson]

So you think Malone, Ewing, Shaq, Dirk, Steph and Kawhi are/were all better than Pippen?

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Seriously?

Pippen was a great player, but he's comfortably worse than all of those players you mentioned.

he's most certainly not comfortably worse than ewing

Ewing out of college had way more skill… end result is though he did take a team to the finals but then again Camby also took the Knicks to a finals. A call away it’s possible Pip takes the Bulls to finals instead of Ewing. I’d say they are pretty close with edge to Pippen by 6 rings.

[TheStig]

I think Shaq, Kawhi, Steph, and Dirk aren't questions to me. Malone / Ewing are more questions to me, but I think they're probably better. I'm 45, so I watched those guys largely as a teenager, and have less faith in my opinion at that age when I also didn't watch the league as a whole as much as I did later.

Kawhi has carried a team to a title with pedestrian talent around him and won another title as the best player with very good talent around him. Shaq has made every team he's been on a contender by his mere presence, that isn't even close. Steph was the #1 guy on a team with two of the best seasons ever, Dirk carried a team to a championship and another NBA finals appearance and more or less a career full of playoff runs without a real star next to him.

I don't think Pippen could have done any of those things.

Ewing/Malone are tougher to rate because they didn't ever win the big one, but I think both those guys made their teams perennial contenders that Pippen probably wouldn't have done in the same situation.

Shaq was big. That was his skill. The refs let him get away with the basketball equivalent of murder. He started in an era that favored big men and he was the biggest of them. He has one season where he carried a team, just like Pippen. His real success came playing alongside superstars. In my opinion he is the most overrated player in NBA history.

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This is an egregious take.

Pippen is nowhere near Shaq as a player.

And Shaq was clearly the best player during the Lakers 3-peating.

Agree 100%

I do wish Shaq worked harder. If he could fix the ft issue and stay in better shape, I think he'd be up there with Bron in all time ranking.

[dougthonus]

Agree 100%

I do wish Shaq worked harder. If he could fix the ft issue and stay in better shape, I think he'd be up there with Bron in all time ranking.

Of the guys I have watched play as a hard core basketball fan (watching 100+ games a year), my rankings are:
1: Jordan
2: LeBron
3: Shaq

This doesn't include Magic/Bird/Kareem (whom I watched some but were before my time as a heavy watcher)

Those are the only three guys I've seen play were I just felt like there is just never an answer for them. Other guys like Tim Duncan, Steph Curry, or Kevin Durant occasionally touch that level but, not the game in game out laughably unstoppable level of those other three where you felt like you could double team them and it didn't matter, and sometimes even a triple team didn't matter.

[TheStig]

Agree 100%

I do wish Shaq worked harder. If he could fix the ft issue and stay in better shape, I think he'd be up there with Bron in all time ranking.

Of the guys I have watched play as a hard core basketball fan (watching 100+ games a year), my rankings are:
1: Jordan
2: LeBron
3: Shaq

This doesn't include Magic/Bird/Kareem (whom I watched some but were before my time as a heavy watcher)

Those are the only three guys I've seen play were I just felt like there is just never an answer for them. Other guys like Tim Duncan, Steph Curry, or Kevin Durant occasionally touch that level but, not the game in game out laughably unstoppable level of those other three where you felt like you could double team them and it didn't matter, and sometimes even a triple team didn't matter.

I agree. Though, I'd put Hakeem up there. He was just incredible on both sides of the ball, great team player, could do everything and guard anyone. He took a bunch of role players and won a ring.

Shaq was dominant and a beast. No one with his size ever had that athleticism and skill.

[dougthonus]

Agree 100%

I do wish Shaq worked harder. If he could fix the ft issue and stay in better shape, I think he'd be up there with Bron in all time ranking.

Of the guys I have watched play as a hard core basketball fan (watching 100+ games a year), my rankings are:
1: Jordan
2: LeBron
3: Shaq

This doesn't include Magic/Bird/Kareem (whom I watched some but were before my time as a heavy watcher)

Those are the only three guys I've seen play were I just felt like there is just never an answer for them. Other guys like Tim Duncan, Steph Curry, or Kevin Durant occasionally touch that level but, not the game in game out laughably unstoppable level of those other three where you felt like you could double team them and it didn't matter, and sometimes even a triple team didn't matter.

I agree. Though, I'd put Hakeem up there. He was just incredible on both sides of the ball, great team player, could do everything and guard anyone. He took a bunch of role players and won a ring.

Shaq was dominant and a beast. No one with his size ever had that athleticism and skill.

Hakeem was another guy I think is just a touch below that level, but I could argue putting him there too. I watched a lot less Hakeem than Shaq though, so it's tougher for me to gauge. My first heavy watching years were the Bulls 72 win season. Prior to that just playoff basketball and the occasional Bulls game.

What Hakeem did is pretty amazing though, he never played with anyone either and won two titles with a couple of the weakest casts around a superstar you're going to see.

[TheStig]

Of the guys I have watched play as a hard core basketball fan (watching 100+ games a year), my rankings are:
1: Jordan
2: LeBron
3: Shaq

This doesn't include Magic/Bird/Kareem (whom I watched some but were before my time as a heavy watcher)

Those are the only three guys I've seen play were I just felt like there is just never an answer for them. Other guys like Tim Duncan, Steph Curry, or Kevin Durant occasionally touch that level but, not the game in game out laughably unstoppable level of those other three where you felt like you could double team them and it didn't matter, and sometimes even a triple team didn't matter.

I agree. Though, I'd put Hakeem up there. He was just incredible on both sides of the ball, great team player, could do everything and guard anyone. He took a bunch of role players and won a ring.

Shaq was dominant and a beast. No one with his size ever had that athleticism and skill.

Hakeem was another guy I think is just a touch below that level, but I could argue putting him there too. I watched a lot less Hakeem than Shaq though, so it's tougher for me to gauge. My first heavy watching years were the Bulls 72 win season. Prior to that just playoff basketball and the occasional Bulls game.

What Hakeem did is pretty amazing though, he never played with anyone either and won two titles with a couple of the weakest casts around a superstar you're going to see.

He did get an old Drexler for the 2nd ring. But his teams were less talented than most championship teams. He also had a terrible owner that wouldn't pay, couldn't replace Sampson and wouldn't pay and had the kid be the GM.

He was just incredible to watch. He'd naturally fit into today's game. He could literally do everything on the court. I think he'd be the only big that would actually be better today than he was back then. He could shoot, create, had handles, score, pass and could defend anyone on the court. He would simply be unstoppable today.

I think he's one of the most underrated superstars because he wasn't the marketing diva like a Shaq. But he actually took down Shaq in the finals.

[dougthonus]

I agree. Though, I'd put Hakeem up there. He was just incredible on both sides of the ball, great team player, could do everything and guard anyone. He took a bunch of role players and won a ring.

Shaq was dominant and a beast. No one with his size ever had that athleticism and skill.

Hakeem was another guy I think is just a touch below that level, but I could argue putting him there too. I watched a lot less Hakeem than Shaq though, so it's tougher for me to gauge. My first heavy watching years were the Bulls 72 win season. Prior to that just playoff basketball and the occasional Bulls game.

What Hakeem did is pretty amazing though, he never played with anyone either and won two titles with a couple of the weakest casts around a superstar you're going to see.

He did get an old Drexler for the 2nd ring. But his teams were less talented than most championship teams. He also had a terrible owner that wouldn't pay, couldn't replace Sampson and wouldn't pay and had the kid be the GM.

He was just incredible to watch. He'd naturally fit into today's game. He could literally do everything on the court. I think he'd be the only big that would actually be better today than he was back then. He could shoot, create, had handles, score, pass and could defend anyone on the court. He would simply be unstoppable today.

I think he's one of the most underrated superstars because he wasn't the marketing diva like a Shaq. But he actually took down Shaq in the finals.

I agree that Hakeem, from my watching, generally is underrated and underappreciated.

[DASMACKDOWN]

Of the guys I have watched play as a hard core basketball fan (watching 100+ games a year), my rankings are:
1: Jordan
2: LeBron
3: Shaq

This doesn't include Magic/Bird/Kareem (whom I watched some but were before my time as a heavy watcher)

Those are the only three guys I've seen play were I just felt like there is just never an answer for them. Other guys like Tim Duncan, Steph Curry, or Kevin Durant occasionally touch that level but, not the game in game out laughably unstoppable level of those other three where you felt like you could double team them and it didn't matter, and sometimes even a triple team didn't matter.

I agree. Though, I'd put Hakeem up there. He was just incredible on both sides of the ball, great team player, could do everything and guard anyone. He took a bunch of role players and won a ring.

Shaq was dominant and a beast. No one with his size ever had that athleticism and skill.

Hakeem was another guy I think is just a touch below that level, but I could argue putting him there too. I watched a lot less Hakeem than Shaq though, so it's tougher for me to gauge. My first heavy watching years were the Bulls 72 win season. Prior to that just playoff basketball and the occasional Bulls game.

What Hakeem did is pretty amazing though, he never played with anyone either and won two titles with a couple of the weakest casts around a superstar you're going to see.

Hakeem was WAYYYYY more skilled than Shaq though. Which is why Shaq has Hakeem ahead of him. No one had answers for Hakeem, including Shaq.

But Shaq was def the most physically imposing guy that I have ever seen. When teams picked up centers and their only only goal was to rack up 6 fouls you know how ridiculous he was.

[TheStig]

I agree. Though, I'd put Hakeem up there. He was just incredible on both sides of the ball, great team player, could do everything and guard anyone. He took a bunch of role players and won a ring.

Shaq was dominant and a beast. No one with his size ever had that athleticism and skill.

Hakeem was another guy I think is just a touch below that level, but I could argue putting him there too. I watched a lot less Hakeem than Shaq though, so it's tougher for me to gauge. My first heavy watching years were the Bulls 72 win season. Prior to that just playoff basketball and the occasional Bulls game.

What Hakeem did is pretty amazing though, he never played with anyone either and won two titles with a couple of the weakest casts around a superstar you're going to see.

Hakeem was WAYYYYY more skilled than Shaq though. Which is why Shaq has Hakeem ahead of him. No one had answers for Hakeem, including Shaq.

But Shaq was def the most physically imposing guy that I have ever seen. When teams picked up centers and their only only goal was to rack up 6 fouls you know how ridiculous he was.

Hakeem is the one big I put over Shaq. He was soooooo skilled as a big and could literally do everything on the court. It's a shame Houston didn't put a real contender around him more years.

[dougthonus]

Hakeem was WAYYYYY more skilled than Shaq though. Which is why Shaq has Hakeem ahead of him. No one had answers for Hakeem, including Shaq.

But Shaq was def the most physically imposing guy that I have ever seen. When teams picked up centers and their only only goal was to rack up 6 fouls you know how ridiculous he was.

Agree that Hakeem was way more skilled. Shaq was just way more physically dominant. Hakeem did beat Shaq in the finals, but it was also 23 year old, not yet peaked Shaq while Hakeem was having the 2nd best season of his entire career. In that series they had pretty similar numbers:
pts/rbs/asts/stl/blk
Hakeem 32.8 / 11.5 / 5.5 / 2 / 2
Shaq 28 / 12.5 / 6.3 / .3 / 2.5

But Shaq scored with TS% of 60.6% vs Hakeem at 51.4% so was actually a much bigger factor offensively. In that sense, I don't know how much I'd hold that series against Shaq in this debate. He actually did a much better job on Hakeem than the other way around even though his team lost, and he wasn't near his peak while Hakeem was.

Again, I didn't get to watch prime Hakeem super frequently, he started to tail off the next year which was when I really started watching a lot, but I'd take Shaq over Hakeem if both players were entering the league at the same time and had to choose between the two of them.

[Stratmaster]

A lot of the "superstars" being compared to Pippen seem to be the Centers from the "great era of centers".

It's a really bad and useless comparison.

As far as Shaq... for 7'1" and 325 pounds he was indeed very athletic. He was also way bigger than anyone else in the game at that time. He was a mediocre rebounder for his size. Watching him play basketball was just ugly to watch. From a skills standpoint he had very few.

He was so bad a shooter they changed the intentional foul rule based on "hack-a-shaq". They changed the 3 second, goaltending and zone defense rules both to keep players from camping in the lane like Shaq and to keep defenses from defending him. He didn't play basketball. It was just bully ball based on pure size.

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[Stratmaster]

To the point of comparing things that can actually be compared...

There are 2 players with Scottie's skillsets since Scottie played who I would consider better than him. LeBron and Durant.

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[Stratmaster]

Agree 100%

I do wish Shaq worked harder. If he could fix the ft issue and stay in better shape, I think he'd be up there with Bron in all time ranking.

Of the guys I have watched play as a hard core basketball fan (watching 100+ games a year), my rankings are:
1: Jordan
2: LeBron
3: Shaq

This doesn't include Magic/Bird/Kareem (whom I watched some but were before my time as a heavy watcher)

Those are the only three guys I've seen play were I just felt like there is just never an answer for them. Other guys like Tim Duncan, Steph Curry, or Kevin Durant occasionally touch that level but, not the game in game out laughably unstoppable level of those other three where you felt like you could double team them and it didn't matter, and sometimes even a triple team didn't matter.

Back to Pippen.

Melo. Dominique Wilkins. Worthy. Pierce.

Do you consider any of them superstars?

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[dougthonus]

Back to Pippen.

Melo. Dominique Wilkins. Worthy. Pierce.

Do you consider any of them superstars?

No, maybe Dominque was, but he was before my time so I reserve judgment. Worthy was also before my time, but he's a clear no to me. I'd also say no to Melo/Pierce.

[othawhitemeat]

So you think Malone, Ewing, Shaq, Dirk, Steph and Kawhi are/were all better than Pippen?

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Yes without a doubt.

Malone, Shaq, Dirk, and Steph for sure. Kawhi, I'm not sure about in the fact that Kawhi takes off a lot and to me is not a real leader. Pippen during his prime may not have had as many highs, but did not have as many lows. Pippen and Leonard are similar, but Pippen was a better defender/facilitator for longer while Leonard is a better scorer/more clutch. Ewing I would say was probably more impactful, but Pippen did more winning things. I think the thing I would say is Pippen was like a Supreme Iguodola but longer and better perimeter shooter. He would do things that don't show on stat sheet that would win games, but way more impactful.

[Stratmaster]

Back to Pippen.

Melo. Dominique Wilkins. Worthy. Pierce.

Do you consider any of them superstars?

No, maybe Dominque was, but he was before my time so I reserve judgment. Worthy was also before my time, but he's a clear no to me. I'd also say no to Melo/Pierce.

Ok. Those guys make just about every top 15 small forwards of all time list. Pippen usually is listed as 5th or 6th with LBJ, Bird, Durant and Dr. J ahead of him and pretty much consensus top 4. I looked at 5 different lists including ESPN and I am pretty confident that will be consistent in any respected list you look at.

Old timers Elgin Baylor and Havlicek are occasionally rated above Pip and occasionally below him.

I am not debating. Just trying to understand your cutoff. It appears you are cutting off the superstar label right at Pippen. And that is fair.

Personally I call the 5th or 6th best small forward of all time a superstar...and probably a half dozen more after him. It's just a difference in where we draw the line.

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[Stratmaster]

So you think Malone, Ewing, Shaq, Dirk, Steph and Kawhi are/were all better than Pippen?

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Yes without a doubt.

Malone, Shaq, Dirk, and Steph for sure. Kawhi, I'm not sure about in the fact that Kawhi takes off a lot and to me is not a real leader. Pippen during his prime may not have had as many highs, but did not have as many lows. Pippen and Leonard are similar, but Pippen was a better defender/facilitator for longer while Leonard is a better scorer/more clutch. Ewing I would say was probably more impactful, but Pippen did more winning things. I think the thing I would say is Pippen was like a Supreme Iguodola but longer and better perimeter shooter. He would do things that don't show on stat sheet that would win games, but way more impactful.

I agree.. Kawhi is not a better basketball player than Pippen was.

Curry is only a better shooter. Not a better overall player.

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[othawhitemeat]

Agree 100%

I do wish Shaq worked harder. If he could fix the ft issue and stay in better shape, I think he'd be up there with Bron in all time ranking.

Of the guys I have watched play as a hard core basketball fan (watching 100+ games a year), my rankings are:
1: Jordan
2: LeBron
3: Shaq

This doesn't include Magic/Bird/Kareem (whom I watched some but were before my time as a heavy watcher)

Those are the only three guys I've seen play were I just felt like there is just never an answer for them. Other guys like Tim Duncan, Steph Curry, or Kevin Durant occasionally touch that level but, not the game in game out laughably unstoppable level of those other three where you felt like you could double team them and it didn't matter, and sometimes even a triple team didn't matter.

Maybe I'm overrating, but I feel like Curry should also be looked at as an all-time great like a Dirk/Duncan - maybe not Shaq/Jordan/Lebron/Kobe, but in next tier. Curry as a leader is top notch, changed the game in 3 point shot, can pass, dribble, etc... I like Curry more than Durant due to his leadership skills and transformational skills from 3. Durant could have been better long-term, but is not as tough mentally/leader.

In general, while an all-time great, I don't think Lebron is comfortably number 2 like many do. I feel like Lebron has cherry-picked many things and has not shown up too much consistently to be in top 2. Others have let down, but not as easy - plus Lebron played in a much weaker East than the other greats. I honestly would pick Bird, Magic, Hakeem from what I have seen over Lebron. Stats wise, Lebron is top notch, but overall, I just feel like many others could have won more rings/faded less with the teams Lebron has had the last decade against the competition he has had.