What if the Bulls just went for it?

[Dan Z]

Sweet! That makes me even more open to it, even though I still vastly prefer what I drone on about all the time. The downside to that annual option to get out of his contract is it raises his trade value which brings the bidding war element back into play. Which is not good for us. We are Sean Connery's proverbial guy who brought the knife to a gunfight if we end up having to outbid other teams.

I'll add that if the Bulls trade for Zion they won't use those opt out clauses for at least a few years (three?). They'll want time with him. At that point his contract will basically be expiring.

I'd rather they not trade for him, but just wanted to mention this.

The fact that the option is there at all is a big relief to me nonetheless. Realistically, is there anyone else out there that posters think can be had and could legitimately turn us into a team with a chance to get out of the East? That we could actually outbid anyone to acquire? I can't think of any.

For a moment I thought: Maybe Butler? But I'm not sure what kind of deal could be made. I wouldn't want to give up picks for him and I'm sure that's what Miami will want.

Butler also doesn't solve the PF situation.

Another poster (I think it was Coldfish) mentioned John Collins, but he won't help elevate this team to a real contender.

I'm not sure what a Zion offer would look like. I'm sure New Orleans will want picks.

[jnrjr79]

But the only reason that would be so is because Zion got drafted in 2019, its 2025, and he's played a total of 191 games. Out of a possible 451. Unless he miraculously stays consistently healthy for many years to come it would further destroy the future of a franchise whose FO has already taken steps to ruin it for a decade. It would be devastating.

FWIW, this isn’t fully accurate. Zion’s contract contains outs every year depending on his health/games played. This is the only reason I’m open to a Zion trade. If he’s perennially unavailable, you just nix the contract and free up a bunch of cap space.

Sweet! That makes me even more open to it, even though I still vastly prefer what I drone on about all the time. The downside to that annual option to get out of his contract is it raises his trade value which brings the bidding war element back into play. Which is not good for us. We are Sean Connery's proverbial guy who brought the knife to a gunfight if we end up having to outbid other teams.

Right, exactly. It’s good for the contract qua contract, but probably means there will be more suitors.

It sure seems like something the Bulls would try, since it gets them a big name and allows them to portray themselves as competing, yet giving them an out to rebuild down the line (maybe when AK is fired!).

[Infinity2152]

Saw an article, showed that Ball/Lavine/Giddey/Williams/Vucevic lineup has the highest offensive rating in the NBA, (around 126 I think), and something like a 96 defensive rating. Only works with Ball on the floor, both plummet when replacing Ball with Ayo, though defensive rating was still like 109. Can't find the article, if anybody can verify/correct the stats, it would be appreciated.

[2weekswithpay]

Saw an article, showed that Ball/Lavine/Giddey/Williams/Vucevic lineup has the highest offensive rating in the NBA, (around 126 I think), and something like a 96 defensive rating. Only works with Ball on the floor, both plummet when replacing Ball with Ayo, though defensive rating was still like 109. Can't find the article, if anybody can verify/correct the stats, it would be appreciated.

CTG has the lineup with a 120 offensive rating and defensive rating. Good offense but not best in the league and bad defense. When you replace Ball with Ayo the defense gets better by around 5 points. The sample size for both lineups is small though.

[Infinity2152]

Saw an article, showed that Ball/Lavine/Giddey/Williams/Vucevic lineup has the highest offensive rating in the NBA, (around 126 I think), and something like a 96 defensive rating. Only works with Ball on the floor, both plummet when replacing Ball with Ayo, though defensive rating was still like 109. Can't find the article, if anybody can verify/correct the stats, it would be appreciated.

CTG has the lineup with a 120 offensive rating and defensive rating. Good offense but not best in the league and bad defense. When you replace Ball with Ayo the defense gets better by around 5 points. The sample size for both lineups is small though.

Thanks for the assist. Was that the Bulls best lineup? Actually think White might have been in that best lineup, come to think about it. Page limited unless you're a subscriber.

[2weekswithpay]

Saw an article, showed that Ball/Lavine/Giddey/Williams/Vucevic lineup has the highest offensive rating in the NBA, (around 126 I think), and something like a 96 defensive rating. Only works with Ball on the floor, both plummet when replacing Ball with Ayo, though defensive rating was still like 109. Can't find the article, if anybody can verify/correct the stats, it would be appreciated.

CTG has the lineup with a 120 offensive rating and defensive rating. Good offense but not best in the league and bad defense. When you replace Ball with Ayo the defense gets better by around 5 points. The sample size for both lineups is small though.

Thanks for the assist. Was that the Bulls best lineup? Actually think White might have been in that best lineup, come to think about it. Page limited unless you're a subscriber.

The best lineup is White/Ball/Lavine/Williams/Vuc. 24.6 net rating. The best lineup with over 100 possessions is Giddey/Ayo/Lavine/Phillips/Vuc.

[Infinity2152]

CTG has the lineup with a 120 offensive rating and defensive rating. Good offense but not best in the league and bad defense. When you replace Ball with Ayo the defense gets better by around 5 points. The sample size for both lineups is small though.

Thanks for the assist. Was that the Bulls best lineup? Actually think White might have been in that best lineup, come to think about it. Page limited unless you're a subscriber.

The best lineup is White/Ball/Lavine/Williams/Vuc. 24.6 net rating. The best lineup with over 100 possessions is Giddey/Ayo/Lavine/Phillips/Vuc.

Thanks again. 24.6 net rating is crazy good, if probably not sustainable. Statmuse has OKC as best team net rating 2025 at 12. Just underscores how impactful Ball is. If we can get 2-3 years of healthy Ball, this team will fly. Have to give AK mad props for grabbing him, even if it didn't work out because of injury.

[Dan Z]

Coby and Pat for Zion works in the trade checker. Maybe you add the Portland pick so the Pelicans can feel like they got some draft capital for him, but I think that's the deal. Coby and Pat have shown that they won't make or break the franchise, but they're useful pieces in a rebuild.

I think you try to keep Ball because he and Zion are close. We might need his perspective to try and navigate a working relationship with Zion. I also think you try to keep Vuc. Vuc's shooting ability can keep things a little more open for Zion. Plus, we probably have a limited number of seasons with Zion's health. You might as well keep as much talent as possible, because Zion is good enough to swing a playoff series if healthy.

C. Vuc/Smith
PF. Zion/Craig/Philips
SF. LaVine/THT/Buzelis
SG. Ayo/Terry/Duarte
PG. Giddey/Ball/Carter

I dunno... I don't hate that team.

Why would New Orleans take that deal? Would you if you were their GM?

They have Murray, McCollum, Alvarado and Jordan Hawkins at the guard positions. I bet Ingram could play there a bit too. Coby's a good player, but a not much of an upgrade for them.

Then there's PW. Is he a good contact? Negative? Or neutral?

The Portland pick might not convey, so it doesnt add much.

Side Note: Why does the Portland pick only turn into one 2nd if it's not conveyed? Most trades give two 2nds in that situation.

[prolific passer]

I'll add that if the Bulls trade for Zion they won't use those opt out clauses for at least a few years (three?). They'll want time with him. At that point his contract will basically be expiring.

I'd rather they not trade for him, but just wanted to mention this.

The fact that the option is there at all is a big relief to me nonetheless. Realistically, is there anyone else out there that posters think can be had and could legitimately turn us into a team with a chance to get out of the East? That we could actually outbid anyone to acquire? I can't think of any.

For a moment I thought: Maybe Butler? But I'm not sure what kind of deal could be made. I wouldn't want to give up picks for him and I'm sure that's what Miami will want.

Butler also doesn't solve the PF situation.

Another poster (I think it was Coldfish) mentioned John Collins, but he won't help elevate this team to a real contender.

I'm not sure what a Zion offer would look like. I'm sure New Orleans will want picks.

Picks and/or expirings is what most rebuilding teams want. Duarte, Lonzo, and Giddy work but Giddy's playmaking might benefit better/more with a guy like Zion on the team. Don't know how Zion and Vuc would play together though.

[Dan Z]

The fact that the option is there at all is a big relief to me nonetheless. Realistically, is there anyone else out there that posters think can be had and could legitimately turn us into a team with a chance to get out of the East? That we could actually outbid anyone to acquire? I can't think of any.

For a moment I thought: Maybe Butler? But I'm not sure what kind of deal could be made. I wouldn't want to give up picks for him and I'm sure that's what Miami will want.

Butler also doesn't solve the PF situation.

Another poster (I think it was Coldfish) mentioned John Collins, but he won't help elevate this team to a real contender.

I'm not sure what a Zion offer would look like. I'm sure New Orleans will want picks.

Picks and/or expirings is what most rebuilding teams want. Duarte, Lonzo, and Giddy work but Giddy's playmaking might benefit better/more with a guy like Zion on the team. Don't know how Zion and Vuc would play together though.

Would you trade picks for Zion?

[prolific passer]

For a moment I thought: Maybe Butler? But I'm not sure what kind of deal could be made. I wouldn't want to give up picks for him and I'm sure that's what Miami will want.

Butler also doesn't solve the PF situation.

Another poster (I think it was Coldfish) mentioned John Collins, but he won't help elevate this team to a real contender.

I'm not sure what a Zion offer would look like. I'm sure New Orleans will want picks.

Picks and/or expirings is what most rebuilding teams want. Duarte, Lonzo, and Giddy work but Giddy's playmaking might benefit better/more with a guy like Zion on the team. Don't know how Zion and Vuc would play together though.

Would you trade picks for Zion?

Tough but for the bulls it's nothing as they already traded all their picks away for other players under the akme regime.

[Charlesareed]

Wow

[sco]

For a moment I thought: Maybe Butler? But I'm not sure what kind of deal could be made. I wouldn't want to give up picks for him and I'm sure that's what Miami will want.

Butler also doesn't solve the PF situation.

Another poster (I think it was Coldfish) mentioned John Collins, but he won't help elevate this team to a real contender.

I'm not sure what a Zion offer would look like. I'm sure New Orleans will want picks.

Picks and/or expirings is what most rebuilding teams want. Duarte, Lonzo, and Giddy work but Giddy's playmaking might benefit better/more with a guy like Zion on the team. Don't know how Zion and Vuc would play together though.

Would you trade picks for Zion?

The problem with trading picks other than POR's for Zion is that there is a reasonably high probability that a team with Zach and Zion will experience a non-trivial injury to one or the other, thus tanking the season. Add Ball into the mix and it becomes almost a certainty. I guess if it was heavily protected, but that seems like an overpay for Zion, where we haven't gotten nearly that in offers for Zach.

[HomoSapien]

Coby and Pat for Zion works in the trade checker. Maybe you add the Portland pick so the Pelicans can feel like they got some draft capital for him, but I think that's the deal. Coby and Pat have shown that they won't make or break the franchise, but they're useful pieces in a rebuild.

I think you try to keep Ball because he and Zion are close. We might need his perspective to try and navigate a working relationship with Zion. I also think you try to keep Vuc. Vuc's shooting ability can keep things a little more open for Zion. Plus, we probably have a limited number of seasons with Zion's health. You might as well keep as much talent as possible, because Zion is good enough to swing a playoff series if healthy.

C. Vuc/Smith
PF. Zion/Craig/Philips
SF. LaVine/THT/Buzelis
SG. Ayo/Terry/Duarte
PG. Giddey/Ball/Carter

I dunno... I don't hate that team.

Why would New Orleans take that deal? Would you if you were their GM?

They have Murray, McCollum, Alvarado and Jordan Hawkins at the guard positions. I bet Ingram could play there a bit too. Coby's a good player, but a not much of an upgrade for them.

Then there's PW. Is he a good contact? Negative? Or neutral?

The Portland pick might not convey, so it doesnt add much.

Side Note: Why does the Portland pick only turn into one 2nd if it's not conveyed? Most trades give two 2nds in that situation.

Just a reminder that this all started when Bobby Marks speculated that Zion could be had for a future 1st and expiring contracts. If that's the bar, I think Coby, Williams, and the Blazers Pick (or a future Bulls pick if necessary) is a solid offer. Coby is a 25-year-old averaging 18 and 5. Williams could go either way for them, but he's a solid reclamation project. Though Marks talked about getting cap space, I would push back on that. NO is not a FA destination so there strategy has to be get as much talent as possible via trades and figure out the rest later.

As for their guard glut, they're the worst team in the West and McCollum is 33. He absolutely can't factor in on a trade and probably should be moved anyway. Ingram is expected to be traded and doesn't much if any time at the 2 anyway. Hawkins is young, but is abysmal. The kid is shooting 35% from the field and 32% from down town. He probably shouldn't dictate their moves either. White, Murray, and Alvarado seem like they can complement each other fine.

[Dan Z]

Picks and/or expirings is what most rebuilding teams want. Duarte, Lonzo, and Giddy work but Giddy's playmaking might benefit better/more with a guy like Zion on the team. Don't know how Zion and Vuc would play together though.

Would you trade picks for Zion?

The problem with trading picks other than POR's for Zion is that there is a reasonably high probability that a team with Zach and Zion will experience a non-trivial injury to one or the other, thus tanking the season. Add Ball into the mix and it becomes almost a certainty. I guess if it was heavily protected, but that seems like an overpay for Zion, where we haven't gotten nearly that in offers for Zach.

I agree and don't think the Bulls should trade for Zion.

I bet New Orleans will want picks for him. Does a package of PW and Coby look good to you if you were the GM of the Pelicans?

[Dan Z]

Coby and Pat for Zion works in the trade checker. Maybe you add the Portland pick so the Pelicans can feel like they got some draft capital for him, but I think that's the deal. Coby and Pat have shown that they won't make or break the franchise, but they're useful pieces in a rebuild.

I think you try to keep Ball because he and Zion are close. We might need his perspective to try and navigate a working relationship with Zion. I also think you try to keep Vuc. Vuc's shooting ability can keep things a little more open for Zion. Plus, we probably have a limited number of seasons with Zion's health. You might as well keep as much talent as possible, because Zion is good enough to swing a playoff series if healthy.

C. Vuc/Smith
PF. Zion/Craig/Philips
SF. LaVine/THT/Buzelis
SG. Ayo/Terry/Duarte
PG. Giddey/Ball/Carter

I dunno... I don't hate that team.

Why would New Orleans take that deal? Would you if you were their GM?

They have Murray, McCollum, Alvarado and Jordan Hawkins at the guard positions. I bet Ingram could play there a bit too. Coby's a good player, but a not much of an upgrade for them.

Then there's PW. Is he a good contact? Negative? Or neutral?

The Portland pick might not convey, so it doesnt add much.

Side Note: Why does the Portland pick only turn into one 2nd if it's not conveyed? Most trades give two 2nds in that situation.

Just a reminder that this all started when Bobby Marks speculated that Zion could be had for a future 1st and expiring contracts. If that's the bar, I think Coby, Williams, and the Blazers Pick (or a future Bulls pick if necessary) is a solid offer. Coby is a 25-year-old averaging 18 and 5. Williams could go either way for them, but he's a solid reclamation project. Though Marks talked about getting cap space, I would push back on that. NO is not a FA destination so there strategy has to be get as much talent as possible via trades and figure out the rest later.

As for their guard glut, they're the worst team in the West and McCollum is 33. He absolutely can't factor in on a trade and probably should be moved anyway. Ingram is expected to be traded and doesn't much if any time at the 2 anyway. Hawkins is young, but is abysmal. The kid is shooting 35% from the field and 32% from down town. He probably shouldn't dictate their moves either. White, Murray, and Alvarado seem like they can complement each other fine.

Coby, PW and a 2nd round pick (Portland pick) isn't worth giving up on the potential of Zion. Of course, they won't get equal value for him (for many reason) but think they can do better than that deal.

[prolific passer]

Would you trade picks for Zion?

The problem with trading picks other than POR's for Zion is that there is a reasonably high probability that a team with Zach and Zion will experience a non-trivial injury to one or the other, thus tanking the season. Add Ball into the mix and it becomes almost a certainty. I guess if it was heavily protected, but that seems like an overpay for Zion, where we haven't gotten nearly that in offers for Zach.

I agree and don't think the Bulls should trade for Zion.

I bet New Orleans will want picks for him. Does a package of PW and Coby look good to you if you were the GM of the Pelicans?

Depends on how desperate the pels are to get rid of him. They might take anything the closer it gets to the deadline.

[prolific passer]

Pels if they are able to move on from Ingram and Zion will still have some decent talent on their roster with Missi, Murphy, Herb Jones, Murray at the point. CJ off the bench with all the other young talent they have. Add Flagg to that and they might have something. Missi, Murphy, Flagg, Herb Jones and Murray is a solid starting 5.

[Dan Z]

The problem with trading picks other than POR's for Zion is that there is a reasonably high probability that a team with Zach and Zion will experience a non-trivial injury to one or the other, thus tanking the season. Add Ball into the mix and it becomes almost a certainty. I guess if it was heavily protected, but that seems like an overpay for Zion, where we haven't gotten nearly that in offers for Zach.

I agree and don't think the Bulls should trade for Zion.

I bet New Orleans will want picks for him. Does a package of PW and Coby look good to you if you were the GM of the Pelicans?

Depends on how desperate the pels are to get rid of him. They might take anything the closer it gets to the deadline.

Why would they be desperate to get rid of him? His contract has opt out clauses if they want to go that route (which I doubt they do).

[sco]

The problem with trading picks other than POR's for Zion is that there is a reasonably high probability that a team with Zach and Zion will experience a non-trivial injury to one or the other, thus tanking the season. Add Ball into the mix and it becomes almost a certainty. I guess if it was heavily protected, but that seems like an overpay for Zion, where we haven't gotten nearly that in offers for Zach.

I agree and don't think the Bulls should trade for Zion.

I bet New Orleans will want picks for him. Does a package of PW and Coby look good to you if you were the GM of the Pelicans?

Depends on how desperate the pels are to get rid of him. They might take anything the closer it gets to the deadline.

They have Murray, McCollum, and BI on the roster, I have a hard time seeing why they'd be so desperate to trade Zion this season.

And despite wanting to do the trade for White/PWill/POR 1st, it's hard to see NO biting on that.