PG: Win ugly

[Betta Bulleavit]

Clearly only someone not watching games would make this post. Vuc has a on/off -11.2, the only worse Bulls player is Okoro at -12.4.

I watch the games and I know what I see. +/- is a stat that's almost exclusively for people that don't watch games. Vuc has his moments just like anyone else on the team. But he is not the central issue with this team.

There is no way you can watch Vuc play and come away with anything other then please play him less. I mean did you see Portland? He was almost single handy responsible for the blown lead in the 4th. Donovan Clingan was abusing him he had close to 10 rebounds in the 4th.

The Portland game was not his finest hour for sure. But that's one game.

[GuardianEnzo]

More good defense from Matas and Giddey.

Jalen and Coby both had good defensive games.

Vuc, Ayo, and Tre were bad.

I know Ayo is beyond criticism for most homer Bulls fans, but his defense is way overrated. I like him - good guy, decent player, offensive game has really leveled up. But the idea that he's even an above-average defender, never mind some kind of stopper, is pure mythology.

[bledredwine]

This is why I can’t even watch the game. I can’t watch the modern game until the playoffs and enjoy it, but I especially can’t watch a team that doesn’t take pride in defensive effort. This board and highlights are how I hold onto what was once a die hard passion.

There are modern teams that show up and play, every night. OKC of course, but also, among others, Pistons, Spurs, heat, and (believe it or not) even the woeful Mavericks.

Unfortunately, we are not one of those teams.

True, and it’s not their fault that I can’t bare to watch it. It’s the changed rules of the game and all of the easy uncontested layups/shots, priority of threes over everything, and so on.

OKC and Denver have been in my top three favorite teams for decades and I can’t watch them either. That’s just my taste. Need aggressive and effective defense to score to take a sport seriously; hence, a boxing fan. I’m in the Popovich camp.

[Ice Man]

It's tough to assess Vuc's on-off effect, because he plays so much. For example, he's in 10 of the 15 three-man lineups that have logged the most minutes this year. For what it's worth, here are the 3 best of those 15 lineups -

1) Huerter/Giddey/Buz (7.8 net rating)
2) Vuc/Giddey/Buz (3.1 net rating)
3) Jones/Giddey/Buz (3.1 net rating)

The worst of the 15 lineups is Vuc/Okoro/Tre.

To the extent that those numbers provide a message, it is to have Giddey & Buz on the floor ...

[coldfish]

Random observations:
- The team was -9 in Noa's 4 minutes where he did 0 0 0. For a team playing every game close, a guy like this really can lose it for you.

Was really unimpressed with Noa's short time.
- First play when he subs in there was a simple screen involving him & Jevon. Ended up with a wide open dunk, off an inbounds pass. Not sure if it was Jevon's fault or Noa's, but somewhere these two failed defense 101
- On our offensive possession he parked about 2 feet inside the 3P line...why? He's in the corner 3 if he steps back, he's too far out for a dunk. Coby attacked on Noa's side and drew 3 defenders, Noa didn't do anything. He just stood there letting his man be in position to help. He didn't step back into the corner 3, he didn't spray out, he didn't cut.
- next defensive possession he did position early under the rim and would have been in position to help D, good stuff there
- he touched the ball on a couple of possessions and didn't even try to do anything, he immediately threw the ball to someone else. I wouldn't even bother guarding Noa, as a defender I know the Bulls are playing 4 on 5.
- A 3P shot up from their Vuc went up, no wizards in the paint, Noa was the biggest Bull near the rim, and we didn't get the board the Wizards got an offensive rebound. The ball didn't bounce right to him, but he was just slow walking his the entire possession, if he ran a little bit he could have stopped another Wizards possession
- On the offensive possession his original man is posting up Huerter under the rim, Noa chooses to stick to Cam out by the 3P line and the Wizards score because Huerter obviously isn't a rim protector. Maybe that's a valid choice because Cam is a scorer, but isn't Noa in there to provide more length & help D?

I think my biggest disappointment is I saw nothing more energetic than a light jog from him in his debut. Wizards players were all running, sprinting. Noa was the slowest player out there. Just no hustle.

4 minutes is waaaay too short of a time to evaluate a player. That said, the team has a whole lot more than 4 minutes watching him play and for whatever reason, they have decided that court time is a bad idea. Maybe there is a reason for that.

[MikeDC]

More good defense from Matas and Giddey.

Jalen and Coby both had good defensive games.

Vuc, Ayo, and Tre were bad.

I know Ayo is beyond criticism for most homer Bulls fans, but his defense is way overrated. I like him - good guy, decent player, offensive game has really leveled up. But the idea that he's even an above-average defender, never mind some kind of stopper, is pure mythology.

It really is. I've been tracking it closely, and he has the lowest defensive usage on the team pretty consistently. He contests shots fine, but not notably more successfully than anyone else.

This clearly a matter of choice. While the defense is sometimes going to be successful in targeting weak defenders, it's the defense's job to limit that.

Literally all of the Bulls other G/F defenders are capable of this. Okoro, Huerter and Matas all typically defend at average usage rates even though, theoretically, the defense would rather go at Coby/Vuc/Giddey.

Not Ayo though... he's consistently off defending the guy who's never gonna get the ball. He's basically the Demar position defensively. And he doesn't generate a lot of disruptive plays (steals, blocks, deflections, loose balls) to make up for it.

He's just a ghost, and makes it that much easier for offenses to go where they want.

I've speculated about why this is, but it obviously is.


Coby and Giddey, on the other hand, held up pretty well last night.

• Ayo got responsibility for allowing 10 points on 6 shots.
• Giddey gave up 15 points on 16 shots. Also had 3 steals, 5 deflections, recovered 2 loose balls.
• Coby gave up 11 points on 15 shots
• Matas, as usual, was also good, and gave up 11 points on 14 shots
• Vuc was bad. He defended 20 shots and gave up 26 points.

Basically Ayo is bad. I had thought that maybe he'd ramp up his usage and this was just some weird outlier, but this is the same trend going back a couple years and there's no sign of it changing.

[FriedRise]

Vooch has never been a shot blocker, but I thought we had a much bigger issue at the point of attack. Guys kept getting blown by with little resistance, constantly putting Vooch in a terrible situation as the last line of defense.

Offensively, they didn't shoot the 3 ball well because it was their 5th game in 7 nights with a lot of travel in between. It was the type of game where they should've attacked the basket more than taking 44 3s. Against these Wizards, they'd have their pick of guys to attack and could've coasted to a win that way.

[Indomitable]

More good defense from Matas and Giddey.

Jalen and Coby both had good defensive games.

Vuc, Ayo, and Tre were bad.

I know Ayo is beyond criticism for most homer Bulls fans, but his defense is way overrated. I like him - good guy, decent player, offensive game has really leveled up. But the idea that he's even an above-average defender, never mind some kind of stopper, is pure mythology.

It really is. I've been tracking it closely, and he has the lowest defensive usage on the team pretty consistently. He contests shots fine, but not notably more successfully than anyone else.

This clearly a matter of choice. While the defense is sometimes going to be successful in targeting weak defenders, it's the defense's job to limit that.

Literally all of the Bulls other G/F defenders are capable of this. Okoro, Huerter and Matas all typically defend at average usage rates even though, theoretically, the defense would rather go at Coby/Vuc/Giddey.

Not Ayo though... he's consistently off defending the guy who's never gonna get the ball. He's basically the Demar position defensively. And he doesn't generate a lot of disruptive plays (steals, blocks, deflections, loose balls) to make up for it.

He's just a ghost, and makes it that much easier for offenses to go where they want.

I've speculated about why this is, but it obviously is.


Coby and Giddey, on the other hand, held up pretty well last night.

• Ayo got responsibility for allowing 10 points on 6 shots.
• Giddey gave up 15 points on 16 shots. Also had 3 steals, 5 deflections, recovered 2 loose balls.
• Coby gave up 11 points on 15 shots
• Matas, as usual, was also good, and gave up 11 points on 14 shots
• Vuc was bad. He defended 20 shots and gave up 26 points.

Basically Ayo is bad. I had thought that maybe he'd ramp up his usage and this was just some weird outlier, but this is the same trend going back a couple years and there's no sign of it changing.

What site do you use. I am here for real exchange.

[HomoSapien]

It's weird to me that Billy was easy to give Pat entitlement minutes as a rookie yet hesitant to do the same for Noa. Rookie Pat was arguably more raw than Noa who has played professionally against grown man in Europe.

Pat was the only #4 on the roster except for Tyler Cook, who was out of the NBA after that season. Well OK, basketball reference lists James Jones Jr. and DDR as power forwards for that season, but come on.

Even Pat wasn't a true PF. AKME apparently sees no reason for that type of player. I sure do, though.

Pat's rookie season we had guys like Lauri, Thad Young, Porter Jr., Theiss, etc.

[Stratmaster]

The unfortunate reality is that without Vuc this team is probably fighting to stay out of the bottom 4 in the conference. I know he has had a couple of bad games and people love to hate him. But he and Giddey are the only reason the Bulls are staying afloat. Two guys a lot of people didn't want on the team.

Love J Giddey, future Bulls legend.

Vooch can see himself out when Zach Collins gets back.

I appreciate Nikola but we’ll be better off when he goes.

If your goal is to get a better draft pick, I understand your opinion. If your goal is to win more games... not so much.

[Stratmaster]

The unfortunate reality is that without Vuc this team is probably fighting to stay out of the bottom 4 in the conference. I know he has had a couple of bad games and people love to hate him. But he and Giddey are the only reason the Bulls are staying afloat. Two guys a lot of people didn't want on the team.

Vuc has literally been the main factor in multiple blown big leads. He has been not keeping the Bulls afloat.

How did Vuc blow these leads you speak of?

[Stratmaster]

Vuc has literally been the main factor in multiple blown big leads. He has been not keeping the Bulls afloat.

Anybody pinning this stuff on Vuc is doing so because they either lack a basic understanding of the game of basketball or they are a casual that just thinks it's the easy thing to do. Vuc is often the only one that's contesting for rebounds and he sure as hell isn't the reason why every team is opening an All star weekend level 3 point shootout on us. Let's stop the madness.

Clearly only someone not watching games would make this post. Vuc has a on/off -11.2, the only worse Bulls player is Okoro at -12.4.

That's how you decide who is playing well? Most misused individual stat in all of sports.

[madvillian]

If Huerter is healthy he clearly should start instead of Ayo. Ayo is best used as a 6th man when he doesn't have to defend a starting level player and can focus on his offense. Huerter offers better spacing, cutting and half court defense as a starter and imo has better chemistry overall with Giddey and Matas and Vuc.

You gotta feel for Matas, kid just turned 21 and he's the only guy on a team full of older vets in the starting lineup that can defend worth half a damn. It's why he needs to play 30+ even if he's struggling on offense. He's our only plus defender in the starting lineup.

[DropStep]

“It don’t matter if u win by an inch or a mile, winning is winning” —- Dominic Toretto

"Sometimes when you win, you really lose, and sometimes when you lose, you really win...Winning or losing is all one organic mechanism, from which one extracts what one needs" —- Rosie Perez

Watch on YouTube

[NecessaryEvil]

The unfortunate reality is that without Vuc this team is probably fighting to stay out of the bottom 4 in the conference. I know he has had a couple of bad games and people love to hate him. But he and Giddey are the only reason the Bulls are staying afloat. Two guys a lot of people didn't want on the team.

Love J Giddey, future Bulls legend.

Vooch can see himself out when Zach Collins gets back.

I appreciate Nikola but we’ll be better off when he goes.

If your goal is to get a better draft pick, I understand your opinion. If your goal is to win more games... not so much.

lol some of you giving Vooch too much credit

[Stratmaster]

Love J Giddey, future Bulls legend.

Vooch can see himself out when Zach Collins gets back.

I appreciate Nikola but we’ll be better off when he goes.

If your goal is to get a better draft pick, I understand your opinion. If your goal is to win more games... not so much.

lol some of you giving Vooch too much credit

Hey, I wanted him gone too. But I know what my eyes see. Paired with Giddey those 2 are making the difference in W's and L's. And neither would be putting up the numbers they are without the other.

[Betta Bulleavit]

Love J Giddey, future Bulls legend.

Vooch can see himself out when Zach Collins gets back.

I appreciate Nikola but we’ll be better off when he goes.

If your goal is to get a better draft pick, I understand your opinion. If your goal is to win more games... not so much.

lol some of you giving Vooch too much credit

For me personally, I'm not interested in allocating an abundance of credit to Vuc. I just don't see him as being the problem that some are making him out to be.

[Stratmaster]

Love J Giddey, future Bulls legend.

Vooch can see himself out when Zach Collins gets back.

I appreciate Nikola but we’ll be better off when he goes.

If your goal is to get a better draft pick, I understand your opinion. If your goal is to win more games... not so much.

lol some of you giving Vooch too much credit

Here are some numbers for you for Vuc:

4th quarter shooting total fg/3 point:
.543/.375
Last 3 minutes:
.579/.600
<5 point game
.505/.447

Those are sick numbers. Now, add in that through 16 games, 91 of Vuc's made baskets have been assisted. So just under 6 per game. Who do you think got most of those assists?

[MikeDC]

I know Ayo is beyond criticism for most homer Bulls fans, but his defense is way overrated. I like him - good guy, decent player, offensive game has really leveled up. But the idea that he's even an above-average defender, never mind some kind of stopper, is pure mythology.

It really is. I've been tracking it closely, and he has the lowest defensive usage on the team pretty consistently. He contests shots fine, but not notably more successfully than anyone else.

This clearly a matter of choice. While the defense is sometimes going to be successful in targeting weak defenders, it's the defense's job to limit that.

Literally all of the Bulls other G/F defenders are capable of this. Okoro, Huerter and Matas all typically defend at average usage rates even though, theoretically, the defense would rather go at Coby/Vuc/Giddey.

Not Ayo though... he's consistently off defending the guy who's never gonna get the ball. He's basically the Demar position defensively. And he doesn't generate a lot of disruptive plays (steals, blocks, deflections, loose balls) to make up for it.

He's just a ghost, and makes it that much easier for offenses to go where they want.

I've speculated about why this is, but it obviously is.


Coby and Giddey, on the other hand, held up pretty well last night.

• Ayo got responsibility for allowing 10 points on 6 shots.
• Giddey gave up 15 points on 16 shots. Also had 3 steals, 5 deflections, recovered 2 loose balls.
• Coby gave up 11 points on 15 shots
• Matas, as usual, was also good, and gave up 11 points on 14 shots
• Vuc was bad. He defended 20 shots and gave up 26 points.

Basically Ayo is bad. I had thought that maybe he'd ramp up his usage and this was just some weird outlier, but this is the same trend going back a couple years and there's no sign of it changing.

What site do you use. I am here for real exchange.

stats.nba.com
I download the stats to compile defensive box scores but the individual stats are all available if you put in the effort to use them.

[NecessaryEvil]

If your goal is to get a better draft pick, I understand your opinion. If your goal is to win more games... not so much.

lol some of you giving Vooch too much credit

For me personally, I'm not interested in allocating an abundance of credit to Vuc. I just don't see him as being the problem that some are making him out to be.

I’ve always liked Vooch, I’m not really here to rag on him at all.