It's one or the other (Noah and Ty)

[kyrv]

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Tyrus's rebounding and shotblocking are majorily based off his athleticism.

Tyrus is an average passer and borderline average dribbler.

What does the 'based off' mean? Do you think he is a good rebounder and shot blocker?

If so, do we care what it is based off?

Some of O'Neal's success was based off him being really, really big...

[Red Larrivee]

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What does the 'based off' mean? Do you think he is a good rebounder and shot blocker?

If so, do we care what it is based off?

Some of O'Neal's success was based off him being really, really big...

And O'Neal was also very skilled in the low post, and had it on lock for a while.

Yes Tyrus is a good rebounder and shot blocker, but I was just explaining that it's primarily based off his athleticism. Which goes back to saying Tyrus is a good athlete, not a good basketball player.

[Cliff Levingston]

Boylan and Pax are both in a tough spot right now given the way their guys are playing. Wallace looks to be reborn (somewhat) under Boylan and Smith has been playing very good basketball. Besides those two, Nocioni had been playing well before his current slump. Nonetheless, he brings shooting and offense that we can really use (when he's on of course). Given all that, it's tough to find substantial minutes for 3 other guys (Thomas, Noah and Gray).

Cliff Levingston only hopes that Paxson/Boylan are trying to showcase Nocioni and Wallace (and maybe Smith) for potential trades. The recent sub patterns completely contradict Pax's earlier wishes to develop the youth.

Besides that, a couple (relatively obvious) ways to get more PT for the young guys would be:

- Going big. Put Tyrus in and small forward with any combo of Noah, Gray, Wallace or Smith at PF and C.
- Full court press. Have the guys go balls out for 4 minute stretches then sub in someone fresh, rinse, and repeat. We've got enough able bodies to where we should be able to keep the tempo extremely high throughout the game. In other words, why not try to use your depth to your full advantage?

[ATRAIN53]

remember that Paxson traded up to obtain Tyrus so he saw something in him that he really wanted.

but this is why i hate when teams draft underclassmen with such high picks.

fans want a #2 pick to produce NOW

it takes at least 2 years for a top #5 pick to produce and that requires a lot of playing time to happen. (hi: brandon roy) and underclassmen need even more time. you learn the NBA game on the floor, not the bench.

so if you draft an underclassmen at #2 and then play him 10-15 MPG exactly when are you allowing him to learn? they need 20-25MPG as rookies and then 30MPG+ in the 2nd year to develop.

tyrus lost almost a year of development under skiles.

noah is losing development time right now.

so unless they play more, they will both take 3-5 years to become legit nba players.

which is about the time they are in line for a big contract. and they will be considered 'undeveloped' players with lots of 'potential'.

these guys both have potential to be great NBA players but not when they sit on the bench.

play them both and do it now!!

[JeremyB0001]

Tyrus's rebounding and shotblocking are majorily based off his athleticism.

Tyrus is an average passer and borderline average dribbler.

Rebounding and shotblocking rely on positioning and timing also, so they're not purely based on athleticism.

Your average big man cannot dribble the ball as well as Tyrus. How often do you see a big man get a steal or rebound and dribble the ball to half court or lead the break the way Tyrus does? People like to complain that these breaks don't always end that well but when they do it's very rarely a reflection of mediocre or poor ball handling. I can count on one hand the number of times I've seen someone steal the ball from him off the dribble.

Tyrus has had a lot of nice looks, this season in particular, so I also think most big men don't pass as well as he does. Check out his assist rate compared to the rest of the team. It's higher than Noc, Lu, BG, and Smith.

[Magilla_Gorilla]

remember that Paxson traded up to obtain Tyrus so he saw something in him that he really wanted.

Technically, Pax traded down to get Tyrus. Pax traded the #2 pick for the #4 and Viktor Crap.

[BobbyBulls]

Wallace + Scoring Big = Good
TT + Scoring Big = Good
Noah + Scoring Big = Good


Wallace/TT/Noah Together = Bad

[kulaz3000]

Your average big man cannot dribble the ball as well as Tyrus. How often do you see a big man get a steal or rebound and dribble the ball to half court or lead the break the way Tyrus does? People like to complain that these breaks don't always end that well but when they do it's very rarely a reflection of mediocre or poor ball handling. I can count on one hand the number of times I've seen someone steal the ball from him off the dribble.

I must admitt, i have no problem with him dribbling up the court when he has a purpose or reason to what he is doing. The times when he messes up is when he just darting towards the basket with no real purpose besides getting to the basket, then BAM, he'll barrell into a defender. There is a 50/50 chance that when he gets a steal and decides to take it up court himself, that it will result in a turnover. Though he is an above dribbler if you compare him to other power forwards, but he would end up being average to below average if you compared him to small fowards, then even much lower compared to guards. So id still rather him pass to a guard, with him sprinting directly towards the basket in hopes that the guards will reward him with an easy basket.

[kyrv]

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I must admitt, i have no problem with him dribbling up the court when he has a purpose or reason to what he is doing. The times when he messes up is when he just darting towards the basket with no real purpose besides getting to the basket, then BAM, he'll barrell into a defender. There is a 50/50 chance that when he gets a steal and decides to take it up court himself, that it will result in a turnover. Though he is an above dribbler if you compare him to other power forwards, but he would end up being average to below average if you compared him to small fowards, then even much lower compared to guards. So id still rather him pass to a guard, with him sprinting directly towards the basket in hopes that the guards will reward him with an easy basket.

Tyrus rarely plays, so not a big deal, but I also would prefer Tyrus give up the ball asap. I like that he starts downcourt but I think (for now) he should be looking to get the ball to the guard and then head towards the basket.

He rarely plays so not trying to nit-pick on one particular play, but, I agree he should give the ball up, as soon as he can.

[derf]

Thats where I believe where coaches and fans disagree.

.

I hope You are not suggesting that the judgement of the fans is superior to the judgement of the coaches.

That is not an argument that I'd want to have to make.

[kyrv]

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I hope You are not suggesting that the judgement of the fans is superior to the judgement of the coaches.

That is not an argument that I'd want to have to make.

Well, you don't have to make that argument.

Are you talking about overall judgement, or implying every decision by the coaches is superior? Did Skiles have superior judgement?

I guess I'm not clear what you are trying to say, or not say.

[derf]

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Tyrus rarely plays, so not a big deal, but I also would prefer Tyrus give up the ball asap. I like that he starts downcourt but I think (for now) he should be looking to get the ball to the guard and then head towards the basket.

He rarely plays so not trying to nit-pick on one particular play, but, I agree he should give the ball up, as soon as he can.

Tyurus plays every day in practice, The thing is it is not on TV, so we don't see it.

But the coaches do. Perhaps they are seeing something we don't.

[derf]

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Well, you don't have to make that argument.

Are you talking about overall judgement, or implying every decision by the coaches is superior? Did Skiles have superior judgement?

I guess I'm not clear what you are trying to say, or not say.

My two cents?

Trying to compare my insights based on what I see at home on TV to the insights and judgements of professional coaches who more often then not have played in the league, and work with the players on an individual basis is like me giving English lessons to Stephen King.

I love his books and heck I can write a short story myself, but he takes it up to a level that's a little over my head. I can appreciate it but I can't do it. That's not to say some fans are not as knowlegable as pro coaches. Just that it's a tough argument to make without coming off looking a little silly.

To answer your question on Skiles? Yeah I'd guess he knew more basketball then anyone here. Unless of course someone is a ringer.

[kyrv]

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Tyurus plays every day in practice, The thing is it is not on TV, so we don't see it.

But the coaches do. Perhaps they are seeing something we don't.

It's possible. It's also possible, they aren't seeing anything.

It's also possible they are supposed to be developing him, not penalizing him for being a project. The Bulls drafted a project.

[Cliff Levingston]

To answer your question on Skiles? Yeah I'd guess he knew more basketball then anyone here. Unless of course someone is a ringer.

:Cliff Levingston:

[kyrv]

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My two cents?

Trying to compare my insights based on what I see at home on TV to the insights and judgements of professional coaches who more often then not have played in the league, and work with the players on an individual basis is like me giving English lessons to Stephen King.

I love his books and heck I can write a short story myself, but he takes it up to a level that's a little over my head. I can appreciate it but I can't do it. That's not to say some fans are not as knowlegable as pro coaches. Just that it's a tough argument to make without coming off looking a little silly.

To answer your question on Skiles? Yeah I'd guess he knew more basketball then anyone here. Unless of course someone is a ringer.

I agree, that doesn't mean his judgements and decisions were correct.

Coaches make tons of decisions and tons of mistakes. The great coaches mistakes do not prevent them from being great, so maybe not worth discussing.

Skiles knew more about basketball than us, yet somehow we knew that starting Griffin for two games wasn't really a great idea.

Are you equating knowing more about basketball to making correct decisions?

[derf]

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I agree, that doesn't mean his judgements and decisions were correct.

Coaches make tons of decisions and tons of mistakes. The great coaches mistakes do not prevent them from being great, so maybe not worth discussing.

Skiles knew more about basketball than us, yet somehow we knew that starting Griffin for two games wasn't really a great idea.

Are you equating knowing more about basketball to making correct decisions?

Absolutely. If you have an algebra problem and you need an answer who is more likely to provide it?

a. A person with an engineering degree.
b. A concrete laborer.

This is the same thing only different.

Note; IMO we both understand that Skiles started AG in an attempt to shake the team up not because he thought he was one of our best 5 players. The example you chose discredits your argument

[kyrv]

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Absolutely. If you have an algebra problem and you need an answer who is more likely to provide it?

a. A person with an engineering degree.
b. A concrete laborer.

This is the same thing only different.

Note; IMO we both understand that Skiles started AG in an attempt to shake the team up not because he thought he was one of our best 5 players. The example you chose discredits your argument

That's not what Skiles said, but you say their decision making is better, then make an excuse to what was a bad decision?

So running the two man game with with Ben Wallace on offense is a good thing? Playing Ben Wallace 48 minutes was a good decision? Getting outrebounded by over a dozen against Houston, putting in a 3 guard/1 SF lineup, was a good decision?

Has Skiles ever made a mistake or a bad decision? Ever? Well, according to him he has. So he kind of ruins your argument. Or is he just being modest?

You aren't on a slippery slope here, you are on pike's peak.

[kyrv]

Questions for Derf:

1) IT knows more about basketball than us. Was his trade for Stevie Francis a good decision?

2) What happens when the GM and coach disagree - does this create a paradox which threatens our very existance? Or does 'whoever know more' break the tie?

3) Was hiring Larry Brown a good idea for the Knicks? Then...firing him must have been not a good decision? Another paradox.

Let's get some more examples up in here, fish, duck? jeremy? Everyone can play along.

[derf]

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That's not what Skiles said, but you say their decision making is better, then make an excuse to what was a bad decision?

So running the two man game with with Ben Wallace on offense is a good thing? Playing Ben Wallace 48 minutes was a good decision? Getting outrebounded by over a dozen against Houston, putting in a 3 guard/1 SF lineup, was a good decision?

Has Skiles ever made a mistake or a bad decision? Ever? Well, according to him he has. So he kind of ruins your argument. Or is he just being modest?

You aren't on a slippery slope here, you are on pike's peak.

Good thing I wore my Sh*tkickers.

Skiles is gone.

The old argument was that Skiles was sitting Tyrus because Skiles was playing head games, trying to mess with Tyrus. That argument no longer holds water. What's the new argument? As far as I can tell it is that Tyrus is entitled to minutes because he has potential.

My opinion on SS coaching? I thought he did a good job. This judgement is based on his overall body of work. To question and justify each individual strategic gambit of his time in Chicago (cherrypick) is neither reasonable or realistic. That is what Neusch was trying to explain the other day about Boylan. This is Business 100 type stuff.

You are out on a limb and sawing away IMO.