Just Sad, "Chicago sees deadliest Memorial Day weekend in four years"

[AshyLarrysDiaper]

So your problem should be with politicians, not cops. Cops don't create the law. Unions are always going to defend their own. Why is there a problem with police having unions compared to other jobs? If you want to start a discussion about unions, let's have it.

I'm not a lawyer so I won't pretend to understand the complexity around it. If you pointed to specific incidents where the immunity law protected cops, it might be more effective than just throwing the word out there.

But based on my reading of it, nothing protects you if you violate federal law or constitutional rights, so I think you have some misplaced anger about what that doctrine actually entails.

Your reading of qualified immunity is wrong. But feel free to link a source.

And regarding unions, sure, let’s have that conversation.

Show me another union that consistently operates like police unions, publicly defending literal murder and defaming the victims in the process.

I happen to work for a union, by the way. But maybe I’ll learn something.

Well, in general they do tend to stick up for bad employees. That's what unions do. Though yes if they fought for Chauvin then that's going way too far. Zero excuse to fight for him.

Just a disclaimer: I wasn't and do not denounce unions. Though I don't always agree with them, I agree that we need them. They protect our jobs and workers rights. How places like Wal-mart have been able to hold down their employees from unionizing is beyond me. They need a union and should've been done decades ago.

Sorry for getting OT a little there.

Sometimes unions go too far defending bad workers. No argument there. But listen to the rhetoric that comes out of FOPs after a cop assaults or kills someone or when a public official breathes a word about accountability. It’s unlike anything in labor. Which is why people say they’re less of a union than they are a special interest group working against the public good. Like the NRA.

Funny, I used to work for a union that’s trying to organize Walmart. The short answer to your question about why they don’t unionize: the company spends a lot of money and breaks a lot of laws to make sure that doesn’t happen.

[dougthonus]

Funny, I used to work for a union that’s trying to organize Walmart. The short answer to your question about why they don’t unionize: the company spends a lot of money and breaks a lot of laws to make sure that doesn’t happen.

What would a Walmart union fight for if it existed?

I don't know a whole lot about Walmart's working conditions, but my daughter was looking at summer jobs, and Walmart paid more than Jewel (which is unionized and had union dues on top of the lesser pay). I'm not sure if working conditions were notably different between the two or there was some other great advantage to Jewel that the union brought.

Not to say Walmart is just a workers paradise, but they seem to pay more and require less than other retail jobs in the area (mostly pure cart return and stocking and not even a lot of customer facing work).

[Dresden]

Funny, I used to work for a union that’s trying to organize Walmart. The short answer to your question about why they don’t unionize: the company spends a lot of money and breaks a lot of laws to make sure that doesn’t happen.

What would a Walmart union fight for if it existed?

I don't know a whole lot about Walmart's working conditions, but my daughter was looking at summer jobs, and Walmart paid more than Jewel (which is unionized and had union dues on top of the lesser pay). I'm not sure if working conditions were notably different between the two or there was some other great advantage to Jewel that the union brought.

Not to say Walmart is just a workers paradise, but they seem to pay more and require less than other retail jobs in the area (mostly pure cart return and stocking and not even a lot of customer facing work).

There was a story that came out several years ago about a Walmart telling it's employees how to apply for food stamps, since what they were making at Walmart wasn't enough to support them. Most union jobs come with pretty nice benefits. Did Walmart do better than Jewel in that area?

[dougthonus]

There was a story that came out several years ago about a Walmart telling it's employees how to apply for food stamps, since what they were making at Walmart wasn't enough to support them. Most union jobs come with pretty nice benefits. Did Walmart do better than Jewel in that area?

She was only looking for part time work, so we never looked at benefits packages, googling Walmart's benefits online and they look pretty great. I think the main thing for Walmart or Jewel or any similar type store is that they're all trying to keep their employees at part time so they don't have to give them benefits.

Not sure that it's really a problem that someone can't fully support an independent life working at walmart though. Not all jobs have enough value to them to pay for someone to live independently and be fully supported. A job that requires literally no training, no experience, no customer service or anything whatsoever and can be done by a 15 year old probably is one that qualifies as not sufficiently valuable enough to support independent living. The replacement cost of you as a worker is 0. You can train someone to do the job in 1 day with no prior experience and there is an ample supply of people who will work part time to do it.

That gets into a whole different debate of course that spirals into all kinds of topics, but if your expectation is to have no skills and live independently (or support a family) then that's probably a poor expectation to have in life with our current capitalistic society. I think capitalism as a system of wealth distribution is nearing its end as the dominant economic platform (maybe another 50 years), and we will look for alternatives as human capital becomes a less and less valued resource and is replaced by AI, Automation, and other machine based capital. Though, again, a wholly different topic.

[AshyLarrysDiaper]

Funny, I used to work for a union that’s trying to organize Walmart. The short answer to your question about why they don’t unionize: the company spends a lot of money and breaks a lot of laws to make sure that doesn’t happen.

What would a Walmart union fight for if it existed?

I don't know a whole lot about Walmart's working conditions, but my daughter was looking at summer jobs, and Walmart paid more than Jewel (which is unionized and had union dues on top of the lesser pay). I'm not sure if working conditions were notably different between the two or there was some other great advantage to Jewel that the union brought.

Not to say Walmart is just a workers paradise, but they seem to pay more and require less than other retail jobs in the area (mostly pure cart return and stocking and not even a lot of customer facing work).

Better pay and benefits are the big selling points.

That’s surprising to hear about Jewel. Can I ask what the starting wage at each store was?

[AshyLarrysDiaper]

There was a story that came out several years ago about a Walmart telling it's employees how to apply for food stamps, since what they were making at Walmart wasn't enough to support them. Most union jobs come with pretty nice benefits. Did Walmart do better than Jewel in that area?

She was only looking for part time work, so we never looked at benefits packages, googling Walmart's benefits online and they look pretty great. I think the main thing for Walmart or Jewel or any similar type store is that they're all trying to keep their employees at part time so they don't have to give them benefits.

Not sure that it's really a problem that someone can't fully support an independent life working at walmart though. Not all jobs have enough value to them to pay for someone to live independently and be fully supported. A job that requires literally no training, no experience, no customer service or anything whatsoever and can be done by a 15 year old probably is one that qualifies as not sufficiently valuable enough to support independent living. The replacement cost of you as a worker is 0. You can train someone to do the job in 1 day with no prior experience and there is an ample supply of people who will work part time to do it.

That gets into a whole different debate of course that spirals into all kinds of topics, but if your expectation is to have no skills and live independently (or support a family) then that's probably a poor expectation to have in life with our current capitalistic society. I think capitalism as a system of wealth distribution is nearing its end as the dominant economic platform (maybe another 50 years), and we will look for alternatives as human capital becomes a less and less valued resource and is replaced by AI, Automation, and other machine based capital. Though, again, a wholly different topic.

To Dresden’s point, the alternative to Walmart paying a living wage is that the rest of us subsidize their workers’ income and healthcare.

Sure, many workers will work multiple jobs to make ends meet, but that isn’t sustainable for most, and taxpayers pick up a chunk of the tab.

That’s setting aside the fact I think it’s plain immoral for a company to not pay a living wage, especially one as profitable as Walmart. But that’s a longer discussion as you said.

[League Circles]

There was a story that came out several years ago about a Walmart telling it's employees how to apply for food stamps, since what they were making at Walmart wasn't enough to support them. Most union jobs come with pretty nice benefits. Did Walmart do better than Jewel in that area?

She was only looking for part time work, so we never looked at benefits packages, googling Walmart's benefits online and they look pretty great. I think the main thing for Walmart or Jewel or any similar type store is that they're all trying to keep their employees at part time so they don't have to give them benefits.

Not sure that it's really a problem that someone can't fully support an independent life working at walmart though. Not all jobs have enough value to them to pay for someone to live independently and be fully supported. A job that requires literally no training, no experience, no customer service or anything whatsoever and can be done by a 15 year old probably is one that qualifies as not sufficiently valuable enough to support independent living. The replacement cost of you as a worker is 0. You can train someone to do the job in 1 day with no prior experience and there is an ample supply of people who will work part time to do it.

That gets into a whole different debate of course that spirals into all kinds of topics, but if your expectation is to have no skills and live independently (or support a family) then that's probably a poor expectation to have in life with our current capitalistic society. I think capitalism as a system of wealth distribution is nearing its end as the dominant economic platform (maybe another 50 years), and we will look for alternatives as human capital becomes a less and less valued resource and is replaced by AI, Automation, and other machine based capital. Though, again, a wholly different topic.

To Dresden’s point, the alternative to Walmart paying a living wage is that the rest of us subsidize their workers’ income and healthcare.

Sure, many workers will work multiple jobs to make ends meet, but that isn’t sustainable for most, and taxpayers pick up a chunk of the tab.

That’s setting aside the fact I think it’s plain immoral for a company to not pay a living wage, especially one as profitable as Walmart. But that’s a longer discussion as you said.

Well, Walmart only profits about 2% on it's revenue. Hardly a lot of room to pay more. Companies like Walmart and many others can only exist due to the welfare state and capital reserves to push others out of business.

[AshyLarrysDiaper]

She was only looking for part time work, so we never looked at benefits packages, googling Walmart's benefits online and they look pretty great. I think the main thing for Walmart or Jewel or any similar type store is that they're all trying to keep their employees at part time so they don't have to give them benefits.

Not sure that it's really a problem that someone can't fully support an independent life working at walmart though. Not all jobs have enough value to them to pay for someone to live independently and be fully supported. A job that requires literally no training, no experience, no customer service or anything whatsoever and can be done by a 15 year old probably is one that qualifies as not sufficiently valuable enough to support independent living. The replacement cost of you as a worker is 0. You can train someone to do the job in 1 day with no prior experience and there is an ample supply of people who will work part time to do it.

That gets into a whole different debate of course that spirals into all kinds of topics, but if your expectation is to have no skills and live independently (or support a family) then that's probably a poor expectation to have in life with our current capitalistic society. I think capitalism as a system of wealth distribution is nearing its end as the dominant economic platform (maybe another 50 years), and we will look for alternatives as human capital becomes a less and less valued resource and is replaced by AI, Automation, and other machine based capital. Though, again, a wholly different topic.

To Dresden’s point, the alternative to Walmart paying a living wage is that the rest of us subsidize their workers’ income and healthcare.

Sure, many workers will work multiple jobs to make ends meet, but that isn’t sustainable for most, and taxpayers pick up a chunk of the tab.

That’s setting aside the fact I think it’s plain immoral for a company to not pay a living wage, especially one as profitable as Walmart. But that’s a longer discussion as you said.

Well, Walmart only profits about 2% on it's revenue. Hardly a lot of room to pay more. Companies like Walmart and many others can only exist due to the welfare state and capital reserves to push others out of business.

Their operating margin hovers around 4% (~ $20B).

https://www.macrotrends.net/stocks/charts/WMT/walmart/operating-margin

Totally agree that Walmart depends on the welfare state and a model of shuttering smaller businesses, though.

[Dresden]

Again,, off topic, but there were studies that came out some years back that showed communities were really better off without big box stores. Yes, everyone paid more for goods at the small, locally owned stores, but in the end, everyone benefitted because employees also made more, and thus were able to afford to pay a bit more for things. Plus, the money stayed in the community. It was an interesting find. But of course, if you have a Walmart or a Home Depot, people are going to shop there because it's cheaper.

Interesting thought about capitalism nearing it's end, Doug. A lot will be changing in 50 years time, with the impact of global warming being felt more severely around the world, too.

[2018C3]

I know Walmart does not pay very well, and its employers do not have a easy living.

A friend of mines father passed away while we were in high school, and his mom had to enter the workforce without any education. She took a job at Walmart, and would often work holidays just to make ends meet. My friend was also a guy who was always working, and often times the money he made would go to bills so he and his mom could continue to get by. Together they were able to continue living in the same house up until it was sold to help pay for his college education. He went to community college for two years while living with his mom, and then went off to a university to finish his degree after the house was sold.

I also have a cousin who lives in a Indiana farming community, and she and her husband met while working at Wallmart in there mid 20's. The couple got a financial break when she inherited her grandfathers house, they quickly moved into it. Several years later together they purchased a bar in the town, and now work that and are doing much better financially. They have two children, and are now living the dream of both business ownership, and a modest home they can call there own.

[Dresden]

Maybe it's to be expected of a store that big, but Walmart has it's own Wikipedia page for "Criticism against Walmart":

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Walmart

[2018C3]

One thing that has made things alot more difficult, is the explosion of the housing market. In the early 70's homes in the Chicago burbs were being purchased in the $30,000 -$40,000 dollar range with long mortgages. My parents purchased there own house for $40,000, and by today's standards is still pretty nice.

People could still find good restate deals, if they are willing to move out away from highly developed areas. Just over 15 years ago my Brother, Sister, parents and I purchased three acres of land of river fronted property for $24,000. It worked out to be about $7000 a piece. Less than a mile away there are now expensive homes that have been built on the same street. The property value has gone up considerably.

[AshyLarrysDiaper]

One thing that has made things alot more difficult, is the explosion of the housing market. In the early 70's homes in the Chicago burbs were being purchased in the $30,000 -$40,000 dollar range with long mortgages. My parents purchased there own house for $40,000, and by today's standards is still pretty nice.

People could still find good restate deals, if they are willing to move out away from highly developed areas. Just over 15 years ago my Brother, Sister, parents and I purchased three acres of land of river fronted property for $24,000. It worked out to be about $7000 a piece. Less than a mile away there are now expensive homes that have been built on the same street. The property value has gone up considerably.

It's scary how fast the housing market has run away from folks who weren't in a position to buy a while back. Especially in places like the Bay Area, where I live. It's not sustainable, prices have to come down at some point -- but in the meantime, you have a generation of people who've been shut out of the easiest way to build wealth in this country. Something's got to give.

[Dresden]

The president of the Chicago Police Board said he was struck five times by officers with batons after trying to defuse tensions at a protest

"The president of the Chicago Police Board said officers struck him five times with batons during Hyde Park protest on Sunday, WTTW reported.

Chicago Police Board President Ghian Foreman, who is a black man, said he was not there to protest but "coincidentally encountered the demonstration at a moment when it became confrontational," he told Politico's Natasha Korecki.

Foreman told WTTW that he attempted to defuse tensions between officers and protesters, and told one officer to "stop cursing out a protester" and tried to calm demonstrators."
...


I really want to give police the benefit of the doubt, but the more incidents like this that come out, it really makes you wonder if there aren't a whole bunch of police that are out of control...

[dougthonus]

Better pay and benefits are the big selling points.

That’s surprising to hear about Jewel. Can I ask what the starting wage at each store was?

Jewel started at like $1 over minimum wage, and I think Walmart started at $3 over minimum wage, but It was 2 years ago, so it's possible I'm mistaken, Walmart was about $2 an hour more in pay. She ended up working at Jewel just because the location was better for her and she didn't have a car yet, and they were looking for fewer hours (like capped at 12 a week instead of 30) which was what she wanted.

[dougthonus]

That’s setting aside the fact I think it’s plain immoral for a company to not pay a living wage, especially one as profitable as Walmart. But that’s a longer discussion as you said.

So you think every job that exists that you can get paid for, regardless of skills, education, or difficulty should pay enough to have a living wage? I'm not sure I really agree with that though to your other point, you end up paying for it one way or the other by funding UBI or other socialistic programs to make up the gap.

Walmart doesn't strike me as the problem though. Of local retail jobs, they seem to generally start higher than other retail oriented jobs, and those jobs tend to have higher demands of customer service/attitude and being out in front of people. If you are going to poke at Walmart, really, I think it comes down to the idea you think minimum wage should just be much higher.

There's a case for that of course, we need to do something to narrow the gap between the ultra wealthy and everyone else again, whether its through minimum wage, UBI, different social programs, higher corporate taxs or cutting of capital gains tax loop hole, you have to do something or this situation will really boil over soon.

I feel really strongly about the wealth gap, and I think it's the biggest problem facing our country. I believe a huge amount of racism and other problems is related to the wealth gap and these racial clashes actually serve as a distraction from the real problems faced by those whom are systemically / institutionally in poverty and the wealthy whom are constantly acquiring a greater percentage of the worlds wealth.

[dice]

That’s setting aside the fact I think it’s plain immoral for a company to not pay a living wage, especially one as profitable as Walmart. But that’s a longer discussion as you said.

So you think every job that exists that you can get paid for, regardless of skills, education, or difficulty should pay enough to have a living wage? I'm not sure I really agree with that though to your other point, you end up paying for it one way or the other by funding UBI or other socialistic programs to make up the gap.

Walmart doesn't strike me as the problem though. Of local retail jobs, they seem to generally start higher than other retail oriented jobs, and those jobs tend to have higher demands of customer service/attitude and being out in front of people. If you are going to poke at Walmart, really, I think it comes down to the idea you think minimum wage should just be much higher.

one more reason things like taxpayer funded UBI and public option health care are good ideas. there should be no artificial minimum wage. companies should not be responsible for ensuring a sustainable lifestyle for their employees. nor for their health care. particularly small businesses

There's a case for that of course, we need to do something to narrow the gap between the ultra wealthy and everyone else again, whether its through minimum wage, UBI, different social programs, higher corporate taxs or cutting of capital gains tax loop hole, you have to do something or this situation will really boil over soon.

I feel really strongly about the wealth gap, and I think it's the biggest problem facing our country. I believe a huge amount of racism and other problems is related to the wealth gap and these racial clashes actually serve as a distraction from the real problems faced by those whom are systemically / institutionally in poverty and the wealthy whom are constantly acquiring a greater percentage of the worlds wealth.

i don't give a damn about the wealth gap. the top 1% can all be billionaires for all i care. but there needs to be a more level playing field of opportunity and a reasonable safety net

capitalism isn't going anywhere. but it has to benefit everybody

[dougthonus]

i don't give a damn about the wealth gap. the top 1% can all be billionaires for all i care. but there needs to be a more level playing field of opportunity and a reasonable safety net

capitalism isn't going anywhere. but it has to benefit everybody

I disagree entirely, if you think there are a finite number of resources then is society better off with 1% of the people holding 30% of those resources or if you distributed them more?

Also think capitalism has very little appeal once human capital loses value due to AI taking over almost all work.

[dice]

i don't give a damn about the wealth gap. the top 1% can all be billionaires for all i care. but there needs to be a more level playing field of opportunity and a reasonable safety net

capitalism isn't going anywhere. but it has to benefit everybody

I disagree entirely, if you think there are a finite number of resources then is society better off with 1% of the people holding 30% of those resources or if you distributed them more?

Also think capitalism has very little appeal once human capital loses value due to AI taking over almost all work.

let's say we get to a point where 1% of the population is doing ALL the work developing the AI. they should be filthy rich. and the rest of us should be content with modest incomes but not having to work for a living!

[Dresden]

i don't give a damn about the wealth gap. the top 1% can all be billionaires for all i care. but there needs to be a more level playing field of opportunity and a reasonable safety net

capitalism isn't going anywhere. but it has to benefit everybody

I disagree entirely, if you think there are a finite number of resources then is society better off with 1% of the people holding 30% of those resources or if you distributed them more?

Also think capitalism has very little appeal once human capital loses value due to AI taking over almost all work.

I go along with that- the wealth gap is causing all kinds of problems:

https://www.yahoo.com/finance/m/fb34b46b-1389-3be6-ab6d-e0420a02fd3f/the-only-way-to-truly-solve.html

The only way to truly solve the race problem in America is to narrow the wealth gap, black economists say

Greg Robb
MarketWatchJune 6, 2020, 2:37 PM PDT

...

By one estimate, the typical white family has wealth of $171,000. This is nearly ten times greater than the $17,150 for an average black family.

Put another way, the typical black household remains poorer than 80% of white households.

This stunning wealth gap between the races has persisted, in good times and bad, for the past 70 years. It did not get better after the civil rights era legislation was passed in the 1960s or during the Obama administration.

And it will continue to fuel unrest, economists said.

...