Pat Williams Discussion - Out 4-6 Mo (late Feb to late April)

[Wingy]

BTW Arturas knew what he was getting into drating Patrick Williams. He is a project. I highly doubt he's getting traded anytime soon.

Arturas is damn near a basketball genius

I agree, but I reckon even that genius didn't figure that literally all of his moves were going to wind up being perfect. This new info. changes the calculus on his thoughts on PWill...else he's not as much of a genius as we think.

or....maybe he did? He did build the current Denver team. We are literally lucky as **** to have Arturas in Chicago.

Agree on the last part.

On the other hand, as tong po once pointed out to me....he was also the man that traded Donovan Mitchell for Trey Lyles.

[MGB8]

I am finding myself quite annoyed reading this thread.

Neither.

The Bulls aren’t contenders, and this forum is about to get some hard doses of reality soon, IMO. There is a big difference between near contender and actual - and none of the moves available will bridge that gap.

The Bulls are also not “re”building…. They are building. To be a good team That is a couple of steps away from being contenders. Pat’s injury was a big setback. Ideally Pat gets himself up to Harrison Barnes-ish level soon, Ball continues to improve, and then the Bulls smartly use other assets to add more punch/talent to that group.

You've been pouring cold water on this team the last couple days and it's rubbing me the wrong way. That kind of thinking is akin to essentially admitting defeat to these teams months before the playoffs even start. I certainly hope the players and front office aren't thinking like that. Nobody thought the 2004 Pistons were contenders, or the 2011 Mavs, and nobody thought the 2020 Heat were going to the Finals. Nobody thought the Suns were going to the Finals last season. The games have to be played. There are only a small number of teams every year that have a chance to go all the way, and through good fortune and good management from AKME, we find ourselves as one of those few teams this year. Good chance we don't win, but at the very least a puncher's chance we do, and I'm not giving up on that in January.

I disagree (though just realized you were responding to someone else who mentioned “monster potential”). Harrison Barnes is an above average NBA starter. He became one pretty quickly, and basically stayed flat. That is what I expect out of Pat, with a small chance that he’s better, and an about equal chance that he is worse. I’m not in the “monster potential” camp… and don’t need to be to not want to package Pat PLUS other assets / useful players for a Barnes/Grant type.

If you only expect Pat to end up as a Barnes type, then why not trade him for a player who is already of that caliber? Your position would make more sense imo if you thought we were hypothetically trading away a potential Kawhi or something for Barnes or Grant.

Had he not been injured, we’d have much more clarity by now about him… that’s why the injury hurts so much. Lost critical development and evaluation time, where the Bulls are a touch better than what most expected (but go back and look where I had them in the East pre-season… 4th…)

So many talking heads and sportswriters had us struggling to even make the playoffs(doesn't speak well for them) and we're the #1 seed nearly halfway through. That's more than a touch better. I mean, I thought we were going to be really good from the outset, but that certainly wasn't the majority opinion.

Him getting injured has EVERYTHING to do with him possibly be traded. If he had playing all season found his groove like Vuc this would not even be an issue.

I can't speak for everyone, but I know I, and at least a couple others, were talking about potentially trading Pat before the season even started.

Check this out around the 2:18 mark, a reporter tells Zach how Arturas was on the radio earlier and talked about how strong the team's chemistry already is when asked about whether or not if he's going to make a move at the deadline.

Think some of you may want to temper your expectations.

I don't think Zach said anything particularly positive or negative about potential deadline moves...he kind of just said the chemistry on the team is good and he leaves the decision-making to AKME.

Honestly, I wish we had the luxury of time to see how Pat pans out - I was excited about him last season before all of this happened, and I was one of the biggest proponents of keeping him in the starting lineup when people were saying to bench him during the first few games before he got hurt - but given the current salary structure, we don't really have that much of an idea of what this team is going to look like beyond next season with Vuc, Coby, Ayo, and Javonte coming off the books in 2023 and DeMar the year after that, so I think there is merit to trying to make the most of the opportunity we have this season and next. That doesn't mean I'll trade PWill for nothing - I do value him a lot(why I wouldn't trade him for Kleber or Covington or anyone like that) - but if you think PWill's ceiling is something akin to Grant or Barnes anyway, than I think a deal makes sense.

And there's another reason to try to acquire one of those guys - so no one else does. It's been reported that a number of contenders are interested in Grant. If we don't get him, who's to say Brooklyn or Milwaukee or Miami doesn't find a way, thus making our playoff path that much harder?

Anyway, a big part of this debate seems to be a rather significant disagreement about what Pat's potential actually is.

The fact that a dose of realism “rubs you the wrong way” is exactly WHY the cold water is needed.

The Bulls are a damned good team. But contender? No.

Weak teams have pushed them to the brink, repeatedly. Lots of “ball bounced the right way” wins - not just DeRozan’s last 2. Starting a reserve 2/3 as essentially a “Bogans” 4, backed up by another reserve level 3. A starting PG who is only “good” in the half court and just “average” at the rim. A starting Center who, while out of his slump, has seen percentages head back down the last couple.

This is a great team to watch, a fun, competitive team that will have a shot even against the best. But let’s not kid ourselves.. it won’t be a large shot.

That is not maligning the Bulls, it’s just being sober.

As for trading Pat, if it were only Pat for Barnes or Grant… I’d seriously think about it. But a Pat who is banged up is unlikely to be enough on his own, with say Coby and for salaries DJJ and/or Troy Brown (both useful, the former moreso) to be enough. So it’s Pat PLUS useful players, and likely a pick or two on top of that…. to marginally increase incredibly small odds (because the loss of useful players does offset the benefit to a degree, even if Pat isn’t back at all or back but still struggling)

Oh, yay, we traded away picks, youth, and flexibility and lost in a competitive 6 in the second round instead of a gentleman’s sweep in 5….

That is my estimation of the likely net benefit of the trades being discussed - hence why I don’t support them and th8nk that would be a dumb plan.

Now, the Lakers want to send old man Lebron for Pat, Coby and Picks… *now* you are a contender. Jonathan Isaac comes back healthy and better than he was pre injury…. Etc. etc.

[NecessaryEvil]

I agree, but I reckon even that genius didn't figure that literally all of his moves were going to wind up being perfect. This new info. changes the calculus on his thoughts on PWill...else he's not as much of a genius as we think.

or....maybe he did? He did build the current Denver team. We are literally lucky as **** to have Arturas in Chicago.

Agree on the last part.

On the other hand, as tong po once pointed out to me....he was also the man that traded Donovan Mitchell for Trey Lyles.

truth, but he also traded Gafford basically for TBJ.

Can't get them all right.

[HomoSapien]

I wouldn't put too much stock into AK's interview. He's got a poker face. He's always had one. He hasn't said anything revealing and he hasn't committed himself to one thing or another. Pax was a little different on the radio. You could often tell exactly what he was thinking or going to do. AK's not like that.

[NecessaryEvil]

I wouldn't put too much stock into AK's interview. He's got a poker face. He's always had one. He hasn't said anything revealing and he hasn't committed himself to one thing or another. Pax was a little different on the radio. You could often tell exactly what he was thinking or going to do. AK's not like that.

well, I''ll say one thing, I don't think he's going to trade Pat williams.

quote me on that.

[Wingy]

The fact that a dose of realism “rubs you the wrong way” is exactly WHY the cold water is needed.

The Bulls are a damned good team. But contender? No.

Weak teams have pushed them to the brink, repeatedly. Lots of “ball bounced the right way” wins - not just DeRozan’s last 2.

And out of 10 losses, they literally only have 1 bad one (Rockets) that included the ridiculous Lonzo 3-pointer offensive "foul" that could've changed the outcome. For the "bounced the right way" wins, there's always losses that cancel them out. Blew a game they easily could've won on the road at healthy Portland, with Vuc out, and the Coby imposter in.

Outside of a COVID outbreak, the team has only been blown out twice. Once at a ridiculous point in the schedule vs. Indy. The other at Golden State (no Vuc, no Coby). It happens, and yeah, they'd obviously be a heavy favorite against us.

I'll highlight HINrichPolice's point for the 2nd time tonight (cause I'd never really thought of it). The Pat Will-less version of the Bulls with Vuc/Coby showing something of their normal selves has literally never seen a mult-game stretch together (perhaps 0 even?). Yet look where we are.

Starting a reserve 2/3 as essentially a “Bogans” 4, backed up by another reserve level 3. A starting PG who is only “good” in the half court and just “average” at the rim. A starting Center who, while out of his slump, has seen percentages head back down the last couple.

...isn't this why you upgrade the roster by using a potentially good, but pretty clearly not star level prospect with more "shine" on him than actual upside?

This is a great team to watch, a fun, competitive team that will have a shot even against the best. But let’s not kid ourselves.. it won’t be a large shot.

That is not maligning the Bulls, it’s just being sober.

So to you, and many others that want to primarily sit on our hands (relatively speaking, I'm not saying that you are saying zero moves at all) because we aren't a clear favorite - when exactly do you go for it, and push your chips to the middle?

Is it when you have a real Durant/Giannis-level superstar? Cause I think that's what most people (and probably our cheesy ownership) that don't want to go 'all-in' actually want. So basically ride the fence forever until lightning strikes you.

As for trading Pat, if it were only Pat for Barnes or Grant… I’d seriously think about it. But a Pat who is banged up is unlikely to be enough on his own, with say Coby and for salaries DJJ and/or Troy Brown (both useful, the former moreso) to be enough. So it’s Pat PLUS useful players, and likely a pick or two on top of that…. to marginally increase incredibly small odds (because the loss of useful players does offset the benefit to a degree, even if Pat isn’t back at all or back but still struggling)

Check out the Pistons board. I was surprised by how little they were ok taking for Grant if we simply provide Patrick Williams. That 4th pick shine is real

Oh, yay, we traded away picks, youth, and flexibility and lost in a competitive 6 in the second round instead of a gentleman’s sweep in 5….

A GarPaxian statement if there ever was one. My god.

[GoBlue72391]

I wouldn’t trade him and neither should AKME. He got injured by a flagrant foul. So what? Trading for mid guy like Grant would be complete waste unless we absolutely win the title and Grant sure as doesn’t move the needle like that. Neither does Barnes who isn’t even a real PF.

Nobody is untouchable, especially a guy who hasn't proven a thing like PWill. It's possible they don't fully believe in him anymore. If AKME thinks trading him for Grant or Barnes is the way to go, I trust them.

I highly doubt that AKME are as impatient as this board.

I highly doubt AKME is willing to waste a prime championship opportunity with a team that has a short window over a guy who has been all hope and little production so far.

[GoBlue72391]

No, we don't have to, but there's a legitimate argument that we should.

There really isn't.

Dude got injured and you want to trade him? That is the epitome of bad asset management.

Their were people here who literally wanted to bench coby and give him NO minutes after two or three games.

talking about wasting assets, sheesh

I don't necessarily want to trade him, I want to acquire a starting-caliber two-way PF. Whether that's trading PWill, Coby, whoever or picking up a vet off the buyout market, it's a hole that needs to be filled if we're serious about contending.

[HomoSapien]

I wouldn't put too much stock into AK's interview. He's got a poker face. He's always had one. He hasn't said anything revealing and he hasn't committed himself to one thing or another. Pax was a little different on the radio. You could often tell exactly what he was thinking or going to do. AK's not like that.

well, I''ll say one thing, I don't think he's going to trade Pat williams.

quote me on that.

Pat's likely out for the season. His trade value is going to be pretty damn low. Chances are he won't trade him. That said, AK is as active as a GM as there is. If there's a move out there that inches us towards a ring, he'll make it.

[WindyCityBorn]

Nobody is untouchable, especially a guy who hasn't proven a thing like PWill. It's possible they don't fully believe in him anymore. If AKME thinks trading him for Grant or Barnes is the way to go, I trust them.

I highly doubt that AKME are as impatient as this board.

I highly doubt AKME is willing to waste a prime championship opportunity with a team that has a short window over a guy who has been all hope and little production so far.

You wanna bet on it?

[GoBlue72391]

Him getting injured has EVERYTHING to do with him possibly be traded. If he had playing all season found his groove like Vuc this would not even be an issue.

No it doesn't, because there's a very good chance that, had he not gotten injured, he would have continued with his 6-9 PPG timid, ineffective level of play, which would naturally create trade discussions to fill the gaping hole at PF before heading into the playoffs.

You just lost the argument by saying there is a chance he would have continued be a non-factor. Fact is we didn’t get a chance to see what he could do…because he got injured.

Your logic doesn't even make sense, but ok. You're basically saying no one can ever speculate on hypothetical scenarios.

[WindyCityBorn]

I wouldn't put too much stock into AK's interview. He's got a poker face. He's always had one. He hasn't said anything revealing and he hasn't committed himself to one thing or another. Pax was a little different on the radio. You could often tell exactly what he was thinking or going to do. AK's not like that.

well, I''ll say one thing, I don't think he's going to trade Pat williams.

quote me on that.

Pat's likely out for the season. His trade value is going to be pretty damn low. Chances are he won't trade him. That said, AK is as active as a GM as there is. If there's a move out there that inches us towards a ring, he'll make it.

We are 100 percent going to make a move to address the frontcourt. I don’t know think it will involve Williams or White though. And it probably won’t be a sexy name, but it will be a player that fits our needs.

[GoBlue72391]

you think the front office that traded a million picks for vets and turned over the entire roster in one season is patient?

Seriously. I really don't think most people realize just how small our window of contention really is.

[GoBlue72391]

you think the front office that traded a million picks for vets and turned over the entire roster in one season is patient?

Good point. AKME has been the opposite of patient. They collectively whipped their dongs out and slapped them on the table with some of those moves. It shouldn't be surprising if they make another big move.

I think another big move is to be expected at this point, given what we've seen from AKME. Not saying it will definitely happen, but I would be shocked if they weren't seriously turning over every stone.

[GoBlue72391]

Watch on YouTube

Check this out around the 2:18 mark, a reporter tells Zach how Arturas was on the radio earlier and talked about how strong the team's chemistry already is when asked about whether or not if he's going to make a move at the deadline.

Think some of you may want to temper your expectations.

We're already #1 in the east, even though covid protocols and still getting better. Sometimes it's wisest not to disturb that. The internal improvement this season has been fascinating to watch as a fan.

even here at 6:50, Swirsky talks about how you have to be careful with the moves you make because this team has really good chemistry

Watch on YouTube

I don't expect a trade of TBJ, Pat or Coby to be honest.

Ahh, so kind of like when AKME said Lauri is a key part of the Bulls future and they're determined to keep him in Chicago and reiterated that multiple times?

Back then we didn't really know if AKME was a straight shooter or a smoke blower when it came to his words with the media, but we now know that what they say publicly isn't necessarily how they actually feel within the organization, so this is a big nothing burger to me. Maybe they'll make a trade, maybe they won't, but based off everything we've seen from AKME so far the odds point to a trade being made.

[WindyCityBorn]

you think the front office that traded a million picks for vets and turned over the entire roster in one season is patient?

Seriously. I really don't think most people realize just how small our window of contention really is.

This just the start of our long run. Zach is 26 and Lonzo is 24. I expect the Bulls to become a big time destination for disgruntled stars soon through trade and free agency. We are not gonna be done once DeRozan and Vuc start to decline. For example I can easily see us being a destination for Jokic who expires the same year Vuc does.

[GoBlue72391]

you think the front office that traded a million picks for vets and turned over the entire roster in one season is patient?

At least the hyperbole is strong in you.

So you're saying they'll give up on a 20 year old 5 games into his second season after missing training camp when his value is at it's lowest? They'll trade Pat if they get something over the top for him (which they won't get) and not for expensive guys like Grant or Wood that won't actually put us over the top.

There's no rush despite people thinking that DeRozan or Vuc are 30+ despite them not having games that rely on athleticism.

If, internally, they've changed their tune on PWill and believe he'll never be more than a solid role player, then yes, absolutely.

He has that nebulous potential, the quality of which cannot reach a consensus as many think he has superstar potential, many think he'll just be another guy, and many people think he'll end up somewhere in-between, but everything we've seen from him so far points to role player at best. I understand he's very young and doesn't have a ton of game experience, but that's why I qualified my statement with he has "potential."

[GoBlue72391]

pat isn't really part of our "chemistry." he's played 5 games this season. that's part of the beauty of trading him!

He's not going anywhere this season.

A little more than two months later, executive vice president Artūras Karnišovas continued to hang the door open in an interview with the Mully & Haugh Show on 670 The Score, saying that, while the team is handling Williams’ rehab cautiously and there is not yet a timeline for him to return, “it would be great to have him back” by season’s end.

“Patrick is coming back slowly, the schedule is to be determined,” Karnišovas said. “We’re not going to put any pressure for him to come back. We’re just going to go from week to week, we’ll see how he improves. We’ll see in terms of a date. I don’t want to put any timeline on it, but it would be great to have Patrick back by end of season.”

https://www.nbcsports.com/chicago/bulls/bulls-arturas-karnisovas-says-patrick-williams-return-tbd

Lauri isn't going anywhere either

AK: I think Lauri is an important part of our team. I’m looking forward to talking to his representation.

AK: I think Lauri’s an essential part of our team, and we hope he is part of what we’re building here.

Joe Cowley: Arturas thought Lauri had a good year and was looking forward to keeping him. Let's see what the market says.

[Mbrahv0528]

pat isn't really part of our "chemistry." he's played 5 games this season. that's part of the beauty of trading him!

He's not going anywhere this season.

A little more than two months later, executive vice president Artūras Karnišovas continued to hang the door open in an interview with the Mully & Haugh Show on 670 The Score, saying that, while the team is handling Williams’ rehab cautiously and there is not yet a timeline for him to return, “it would be great to have him back” by season’s end.

“Patrick is coming back slowly, the schedule is to be determined,” Karnišovas said. “We’re not going to put any pressure for him to come back. We’re just going to go from week to week, we’ll see how he improves. We’ll see in terms of a date. I don’t want to put any timeline on it, but it would be great to have Patrick back by end of season.”

https://www.nbcsports.com/chicago/bulls/bulls-arturas-karnisovas-says-patrick-williams-return-tbd

Lauri isn't going anywhere either

AK: I think Lauri is an important part of our team. I’m looking forward to talking to his representation.

AK: I think Lauri’s an essential part of our team, and we hope he is part of what we’re building here.

Joe Cowley: Arturas thought Lauri had a good year and was looking forward to keeping him. Let's see what the market says.

Literally comparing apples to oranges in regards to the situations of Patrick and Lauri.... but you do you I guess.

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[GoBlue72391]

I highly doubt that AKME are as impatient as this board.

I highly doubt AKME is willing to waste a prime championship opportunity with a team that has a short window over a guy who has been all hope and little production so far.

You wanna bet on it?

I never said they will trade him, so why would I bet on something I don't necessarily believe? I said there's an argument that they should and it's possible that they could, based on what we've seen from AKME so far.

You seem to be taking this personally for some reason. I don't hate PWill nor do I necessarily want him traded, I just want a starting caliber PF and trading PWill is just one avenue to do that. We could also trade someone like Coby or TBJ or even just pick up a vet off the buyout market if we get lucky. I don't care how we do it, we just have to do it one way or another.