Butler trade rumor - KC Johnson update: pg 63

[the ultimates]

Jimmy's age argument is silly. He's what 27-28 years old just like Harden and Westbrook. Secondly the Bulls are .500 and in the hunt for the playoffs. Didn't many people expect them to be a 40-45 win team after they got Wade. Nobody including the front office was under any impression that they would be this 50-55+ plus win two or three seed in the East.

So being break even right now can't be considered underperforming or justification for moving Butler no matter how many tank fans want it. Third this is the Bulls first time building around Butler. People bring up Harden and the Rockets who are playing well but does anybody seriously think their contenders? Is been shown before most recently with Lebron on the Cavs the first time around you can't have one guy basically be your offense.

[Stratmaster]

Then I ask you this? How in the world do we become a great team that wins championships? Teams like Golden State, Cleveland, and the Spurs are impossible to just emulate. The Warriors are only like this because Curry was injured his first few years. Cleveland has Lebron. And the Spurs have been working on this for over 20 years with a well thought out system and an amazing coach and FO. Not to mention all of the Hall of Fame talent. The other 27 teams in this league (barring The Heat the last few years) are out here not winning anything. All of them are trying to win, but it is not easy. Not so simple as just "HEY LETS GET SOME DRAFT PICKS AND GO WIN! DUH WHO WOULD HAVE THOUGHT OF THAT?"

A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush. Remember that.

I agree it isn't that simple. It also isn't as simple as surrounding Butler with complimentary pieces. The bulls need a 2nd Butler level player.

Who did golden State emulate? Who did San Antonio emulate? Chasing a perceived "formula" that some other team has used doesn't usually work. Those teams are the way they are because they have exceptional talent and have tailored their approach to best utilize that talent. unless you have the same lewvel and type of talent, emulating them gets you nowhere.

I believe you may have thought I was arguing to shed Butler. I'm not. However, I am arguing against the idea that the Bulls should focus on finding complementary players to Butler. I don;t think he is that level of talent...and even if he is, one of Butler's great assets is that he has a complete set of skills, and can play either wing spot. He is perfectly suited to adapt to whatever other dynamic scorer the Bulls can obtain. They just haven't had one to pair with him.

This appears to not be totally accurate. Butler is good in any system, but his numbers become absolutely great when paired with floor spacers.

I'm not worried about Butler's numbers. They are great right now. I was discussing how to build a contending team. Absolutely! Just give Jimmy complementary shooters and his numbers can inch even higher. It doesn't help the Bulls become contenders.

[transplant]

Several of the most effective offenses in the league put the ball in the stud's hands and go from there (Cavs, Thunder, Rockets, Raptors). This seems to be where the Bulls are headed. Fred's going to have to adjust...everyone's going to have to adjust.

[TheChad708]

Maybe Thibs and Minny have softened on trading Wiggins?

[the ultimates]

Maybe Thibs and Minny have softened on trading Wiggins?

Thibs can keep Rudy Gay 2.0

[fleet]

Here we go again. How do they define that stat? Do they include when a pick is set but the player never looks for the "roll"? Because that was happening consistently. It is easier to say "ISO" than to describe every possible type of play that reflects a stagnant offense. Geesh why are you so sensitive about Butler?

the Bulls offense tends to get stagnant. I don't like it. I've never blamed it on Jimmy. But he is a part of it and has to take his share of the responsibility.

They wouldn't...Because that isn't ISO...

And they generally run the pick and roll to get Jimmy a good look. And his pick and roll numbers also stack up well. http://stats.nba.com/players/ball-handler/#!?sort=PossG&dir=1

The point is, Jimmy is the least of the Bulls concern, but for some reason among some posters he needs to be discussed and put under the microscope.

Lets actually put a better team around him and then we can properly discuss if Jimmy is hurting the team or helping it.

You haven't been paying attention to my posts...until you see one you think might be saying Butler isn't perfect

Jimmy isn't a concern at all from my point of view...I think I pretty much said that in the post you responded to. He does force shots at times. There are many reasons why. He sometimes eats up a lot of clock before he passes. But let me be clear on what I have said about Butler...over and over...

He is the Bulls best player.
He is a borderline superstar.
I completely underestimated him before his emergence.
He should be "blamed" for absolutely nothing.
The Bulls overall offense stagnates, it isn't just Butler.
It would be foolish to trade him.
I wish he would move the ball more quickly.

You are correct that I have been mis-characterizing play as "ISO". I really didn't even think about it until you just mentioned it, but I am really referring (not just with Jimmy!) to possessions where only one player touches the ball after the initial pass, or PnR/PNP with no intention of using the roll or pop option. Or ISO. Or receiving a pass and ignoring an open player with a better opportunity while forcing a shot.

most truly good and great scorers take bad shots. Lots of bad shots. It happens. Jimmy is no different. It is nothing close to a defining characteristic of Jimmy relative to others in his class. And Jimmy is damn efficient anyway. This is a hollow conversation.

[Minalt]

Several of the most effective offenses in the league put the ball in the stud's hands and go from there (Cavs, Thunder, Rockets, Raptors). This seems to be where the Bulls are headed. Fred's going to have to adjust...everyone's going to have to adjust.

With the benching of Rondo, it would seem they are headed that way. If it wasn't for this trade rumor coming up then that would be what posters would be talking about.

[Rerisen]

GOAT had much worse talent than this Bulls team. GOAT was actually only decent player on those teams (some say Woolridge was decent, but that's actually compliment). I am pretty sure if those teams didnt had MJ, they would be 76ers bad during tanking.

Yeah his teams were terrible early, but you drastically overrate this roster outside Butler.

I dont. Wade is better than both Oakley and Woolridge. Taj is more than decent. And Mirotic and Doug even with inconsistency are much better than anything Jordan had. When Jordan decided to be playmaker he was best playmaker, when Jordan decided to score he was best scorer. Whatever Jordan did he just oozed with talent even as rookie. Those players werent good in anything. It was really simple, those guys did move the ball when Jordan sit few minutes for rest. But they really sucked. And most of the time they made baskets and contributed were from Jordan doing right plays. Like from double team. They were really crap shot who few could create a shot for themselves. I actually think now they even looked better than they were cause of Jordan. That's why never understood "selfishness" of MJ. It was better for MJ to take a bad shot and gamble will it go in than Jordan passing ball for open jumpshot.

I personally want Butler to take those shots. It will prove me is he a superstar or not. Cause superstar takes bad shots and make them.

You're barking up the wrong tree. Having a 'real' superstar would not make the difference on this mediocre talent team. We'd win 2-5 more depending which one it is, and still get dismissed in the 2nd round.

[kurtatx]

Yeah his teams were terrible early, but you drastically overrate this roster outside Butler.

I dont. Wade is better than both Oakley and Woolridge. Taj is more than decent. And Mirotic and Doug even with inconsistency are much better than anything Jordan had. When Jordan decided to be playmaker he was best playmaker, when Jordan decided to score he was best scorer. Whatever Jordan did he just oozed with talent even as rookie. Those players werent good in anything. It was really simple, those guys did move the ball when Jordan sit few minutes for rest. But they really sucked. And most of the time they made baskets and contributed were from Jordan doing right plays. Like from double team. They were really crap shot who few could create a shot for themselves. I actually think now they even looked better than they were cause of Jordan. That's why never understood "selfishness" of MJ. It was better for MJ to take a bad shot and gamble will it go in than Jordan passing ball for open jumpshot.

I personally want Butler to take those shots. It will prove me is he a superstar or not. Cause superstar takes bad shots and make them.

You're barking up the wrong tree. Having a 'real' superstar would not make the difference on this mediocre talent team. We'd win 2-5 more depending which one it is, and still get dismissed in the 2nd round.

That's fine for this year, but having a number 1 superstar in the NBA makes the turnaround easier.

[MC3]

I dont. Wade is better than both Oakley and Woolridge. Taj is more than decent. And Mirotic and Doug even with inconsistency are much better than anything Jordan had. When Jordan decided to be playmaker he was best playmaker, when Jordan decided to score he was best scorer. Whatever Jordan did he just oozed with talent even as rookie. Those players werent good in anything. It was really simple, those guys did move the ball when Jordan sit few minutes for rest. But they really sucked. And most of the time they made baskets and contributed were from Jordan doing right plays. Like from double team. They were really crap shot who few could create a shot for themselves. I actually think now they even looked better than they were cause of Jordan. That's why never understood "selfishness" of MJ. It was better for MJ to take a bad shot and gamble will it go in than Jordan passing ball for open jumpshot.

I personally want Butler to take those shots. It will prove me is he a superstar or not. Cause superstar takes bad shots and make them.

You're barking up the wrong tree. Having a 'real' superstar would not make the difference on this mediocre talent team. We'd win 2-5 more depending which one it is, and still get dismissed in the 2nd round.

That's fine for this year, but having a number 1 superstar in the NBA makes the turnaround easier.

this. I want to see if Jimmy can hold burden of high usage and elite efficiency. If he can then he is even better than Westbrook and on pair with Harden. And that means he is superstar. For now he is fake superstar.

[weneeda2guard]

Jimmy's age argument is silly. He's what 27-28 years old just like Harden and Westbrook. Secondly the Bulls are .500 and in the hunt for the playoffs. Didn't many people expect them to be a 40-45 win team after they got Wade. Nobody including the front office was under any impression that they would be this 50-55+ plus win two or three seed in the East.

So being break even right now can't be considered underperforming or justification for moving Butler no matter how many tank fans want it. Third this is the Bulls first time building around Butler. People bring up Harden and the Rockets who are playing well but does anybody seriously think their contenders? Is been shown before most recently with Lebron on the Cavs the first time around you can't have one guy basically be your offense.

It was in fact understood this season would be more a evaluation, stop gap season, 40-45 wins, 3-6 seed, all of these things still attainable, but the home runs were supposed to come next off season, just the bulls had some great showings, so overzealous fans starting talking title contender, tho most of us knew this would be the look at least this season, and unfortunately, those who are pro tank run to every struggle using that struggle as evidence of rebuilding and disappear when the team is doing well. Pro tankers also like to play dumb and act as if rondo and wade was in fact the home runs and that should have been the title contending moves and since it's not they should blow it up.

I don't think we realize how much credibility we lose bringing in wade to throw the towel in, January and ship your franchise player off. You show any potential stars in the future that this front office is not serious about being a contending team and make ourselves a laughing stock of the league treating our star like that. It took at least a decade to shake the negative stigma we had after the jordan pippen years based on how that ended, we would really create a horrible rep with how thibs, rose and noah ended here, followed by doing jimmy that way and bringing in wade just to quit a few months in, and it's not out of the possibility that wade could opt in to get his money as no other teams may not offer him that kind of money, so wade would have been brought in, quit on in a few months then spent 2 seasons of his last years in rebuild on a terrible team winning 15 games a year in hopes we land another franchise player, after we just sent one off. Smh.

[jnrjr79]

I agree it isn't that simple. It also isn't as simple as surrounding Butler with complimentary pieces. The bulls need a 2nd Butler level player.

Who did golden State emulate? Who did San Antonio emulate? Chasing a perceived "formula" that some other team has used doesn't usually work. Those teams are the way they are because they have exceptional talent and have tailored their approach to best utilize that talent. unless you have the same lewvel and type of talent, emulating them gets you nowhere.

I believe you may have thought I was arguing to shed Butler. I'm not. However, I am arguing against the idea that the Bulls should focus on finding complementary players to Butler. I don;t think he is that level of talent...and even if he is, one of Butler's great assets is that he has a complete set of skills, and can play either wing spot. He is perfectly suited to adapt to whatever other dynamic scorer the Bulls can obtain. They just haven't had one to pair with him.

This appears to not be totally accurate. Butler is good in any system, but his numbers become absolutely great when paired with floor spacers.

I'm not worried about Butler's numbers. They are great right now. I was discussing how to build a contending team. Absolutely! Just give Jimmy complementary shooters and his numbers can inch even higher. It doesn't help the Bulls become contenders.

You are asserting it, but it's not apparent why this would be true.

[Rerisen]

I dont. Wade is better than both Oakley and Woolridge. Taj is more than decent. And Mirotic and Doug even with inconsistency are much better than anything Jordan had. When Jordan decided to be playmaker he was best playmaker, when Jordan decided to score he was best scorer. Whatever Jordan did he just oozed with talent even as rookie. Those players werent good in anything. It was really simple, those guys did move the ball when Jordan sit few minutes for rest. But they really sucked. And most of the time they made baskets and contributed were from Jordan doing right plays. Like from double team. They were really crap shot who few could create a shot for themselves. I actually think now they even looked better than they were cause of Jordan. That's why never understood "selfishness" of MJ. It was better for MJ to take a bad shot and gamble will it go in than Jordan passing ball for open jumpshot.

I personally want Butler to take those shots. It will prove me is he a superstar or not. Cause superstar takes bad shots and make them.

You're barking up the wrong tree. Having a 'real' superstar would not make the difference on this mediocre talent team. We'd win 2-5 more depending which one it is, and still get dismissed in the 2nd round.

That's fine for this year, but having a number 1 superstar in the NBA makes the turnaround easier.

Yep and not getting one, while losing Butler means the NBA basement for possibly 5-10 years.

Considering the odds are less than 5% to draft one, I'd prefer see what we can do around Butler first.

[kurtatx]

You're barking up the wrong tree. Having a 'real' superstar would not make the difference on this mediocre talent team. We'd win 2-5 more depending which one it is, and still get dismissed in the 2nd round.

That's fine for this year, but having a number 1 superstar in the NBA makes the turnaround easier.

Yep and not getting, while losing Butler means the NBA basement for possibly 5-10 years.

Considering the odds are less than 5% to draft one, I'd prefer see what we can do around Butler first.

I'm somewhat inclined to agree so long as the FO can draft. That's what worries me.

But like to your point, if we can't draft, moving Butler only makes the situation worse.

[Stratmaster]

They wouldn't...Because that isn't ISO...

And they generally run the pick and roll to get Jimmy a good look. And his pick and roll numbers also stack up well. http://stats.nba.com/players/ball-handler/#!?sort=PossG&dir=1

The point is, Jimmy is the least of the Bulls concern, but for some reason among some posters he needs to be discussed and put under the microscope.

Lets actually put a better team around him and then we can properly discuss if Jimmy is hurting the team or helping it.

You haven't been paying attention to my posts...until you see one you think might be saying Butler isn't perfect

Jimmy isn't a concern at all from my point of view...I think I pretty much said that in the post you responded to. He does force shots at times. There are many reasons why. He sometimes eats up a lot of clock before he passes. But let me be clear on what I have said about Butler...over and over...

He is the Bulls best player.
He is a borderline superstar.
I completely underestimated him before his emergence.
He should be "blamed" for absolutely nothing.
The Bulls overall offense stagnates, it isn't just Butler.
It would be foolish to trade him.
I wish he would move the ball more quickly.

You are correct that I have been mis-characterizing play as "ISO". I really didn't even think about it until you just mentioned it, but I am really referring (not just with Jimmy!) to possessions where only one player touches the ball after the initial pass, or PnR/PNP with no intention of using the roll or pop option. Or ISO. Or receiving a pass and ignoring an open player with a better opportunity while forcing a shot.

most truly good and great scorers take bad shots. Lots of bad shots. It happens. Jimmy is no different. It is nothing close to a defining characteristic of Jimmy relative to others in his class. And Jimmy is damn efficient anyway. This is a hollow conversation.

It wasn't my conversation. My conversation several days ago was that the Bulls are a better team when the ball moves and not as good when it stops moving. Suddenly all kinds of people jumped to Jimmy's defense. So...if it isn't an issue with Jimmy, why did everyone jump to his defense? He is a part of it, like the rest of the starters, and to a lesser extent Niko and Doug. Sorry if you think that is a hollow discussion.

[Stratmaster]

This appears to not be totally accurate. Butler is good in any system, but his numbers become absolutely great when paired with floor spacers.

I'm not worried about Butler's numbers. They are great right now. I was discussing how to build a contending team. Absolutely! Just give Jimmy complementary shooters and his numbers can inch even higher. It doesn't help the Bulls become contenders.

You are asserting it, but it's not apparent why this would be true.

Well of course, it is my opinion as is 99% of what I read on here. I'm not sure why you would say that.

[fleet]

You haven't been paying attention to my posts...until you see one you think might be saying Butler isn't perfect

Jimmy isn't a concern at all from my point of view...I think I pretty much said that in the post you responded to. He does force shots at times. There are many reasons why. He sometimes eats up a lot of clock before he passes. But let me be clear on what I have said about Butler...over and over...

He is the Bulls best player.
He is a borderline superstar.
I completely underestimated him before his emergence.
He should be "blamed" for absolutely nothing.
The Bulls overall offense stagnates, it isn't just Butler.
It would be foolish to trade him.
I wish he would move the ball more quickly.

You are correct that I have been mis-characterizing play as "ISO". I really didn't even think about it until you just mentioned it, but I am really referring (not just with Jimmy!) to possessions where only one player touches the ball after the initial pass, or PnR/PNP with no intention of using the roll or pop option. Or ISO. Or receiving a pass and ignoring an open player with a better opportunity while forcing a shot.

most truly good and great scorers take bad shots. Lots of bad shots. It happens. Jimmy is no different. It is nothing close to a defining characteristic of Jimmy relative to others in his class. And Jimmy is damn efficient anyway. This is a hollow conversation.

It wasn't my conversation. My conversation several days ago was that the Bulls are a better team when the ball moves and not as good when it stops moving. Suddenly all kinds of people jumped to Jimmy's defense. So...if it isn't an issue with Jimmy, why did everyone jump to his defense? He is a part of it, like the rest of the starters, and to a lesser extent Niko and Doug. Sorry if you think that is a hollow discussion.

I'm just saying, this is a common characteristic among very good scorers. A common flaw if you will. You accept it and go on usually. I have a hard time figuring out why this is discussed at length. Jimmy isn't even that bad (by the numbers that attempt to measure this).

[Rerisen]

So called 'ISO' scorers are what tends to win NBA championships. At least before the era of superteams.

People would have called 06 Wade that too when he was dominating the 06 Finals.

[Chicago-Bull-E]

Maybe Thibs and Minny have softened on trading Wiggins?

After looking up some of Wiggins' numbers this year, he seems to have actually regressed a touch under Thibs.

Having him as the centerpiece in a butler trade is beginning to worry me.

[Minalt]

So called 'ISO' scorers are what tends to win NBA championships. At least before the era of superteams.

People would have called 06 Wade that too when he was dominating the 06 Finals.

We have all watched plenty of playoff basketball to know that in the end. When teams lock down on D, that you need ISO and people who can catch and shoot. Jimmy is a monster, and I am fine riding him for a while