OT- The Last Dance documentary

[troza]

Watch on YouTube

Great video. At that situation it seems that they are set on going without Jackson and that Jordan won't go without Jackson but still had hope.

I would say that this is where things go wrong... you get a guy for recruiting young talent on a year that there wouldn't be any on the Bulls... oh my... they didn't even know if there would be a season...

[wickywack]

That said, Krause felt he could burn it to the ground and rebuild a true contender so would have never gone for that type of plan. The irony of that is that Krause, in his entire history, drafted 1 star player (Pippen) and really had logical reason to think he could pull off what he tried based on his history.

Ironic indeed.

Krause couldn't distinguish his own ability from his luck. Prior to the breakup, his strategy/ability was reasonably solid. His results were exceptional. He mistook this to mean his strategy/ability was exceptional.

Krause styled his own scouting abilities as "god-given", seemingly akin to Jordan's ability to play basketball. His words:

Krause, who has spent virtually his entire working life assessing baseball and/or basketball talent, feels he has a gift. Instinct, he calls it, the ability to identify and evaluate skilled athletic movement. "It's God-given," he says.

"I remember actions, how a guy walks or runs or throws or shoots. If those actions change, I see it. If a hitter is going bad, I see it in two or three swings. If somebody has the goods, I see it right away, basketball or baseball. Swinging a bat and shooting a ball are exactly the same—wrists, hand-eye coordination, recognition of the pitch, how to get the shot off."

( https://vault.si.com/vault/1993/03/15/the-sleuth )

He reminds me of the scouts Billy Beane fires in Moneyball.

[HomoSapien]

My point was that Krause's rebuild was doomed because there were no foundational pieces available in any of those drafts to him except maybe Pau Gasol and he was more of a #2. If you start right before 96 or 03 you run into 2 of the greatest drafts ever and can get great talent. People forget, he had 2 lotto picks in each draft. I think you need a little luck to rebuild around a good draft, he happened to catch the worst streak.

His rebuild was doomed because he wasn’t really planning on building in the draft. He was so sure he was going to get at least one of TMac, Hill or Duncan. He was clueless about how he was perceived and thought he really would get those guys. Absolutely misjudged the market because of his hubris. Hell TMac only showed up out of respect because Krause always liked him. Now granted if he pulled that off, well he goes down in history as a visionary instead of how he did go down. His plan was solid on paper but had less than a 1% chance of working in the real world, where he alienated all the top personalities on the greatest team ever. I bet if he could have gotten over his hubris he would have kept it together but that ego had some might big blinders.

I read somewhere that tmac was actually close to signing with the bulls. He appreciated the scouting krause was doing on him since he came in the league and krause been wooing him since he was a rookie to the point krause was willing to trade pippen for him

From the grapevine though, supposedly scottie pippen and Phil Jackson called tmac to tell tmac about the front office of the bulls. They strongly advised against him coming here. Add in what Orlando did getting grant Hill to sign there and tmac made what he felt was the better choice.

There was also a report that Krause's first choice was TMac, but Floyd's was Duncan and Hill. Krause preferred TMac because he knew he had no chance at Duncan and Hill, but didn't want to overrule Floyd, so they pursued those guys first and by the time they got to TMac they had lost too much groundwork to Orlando.

[dice]

Krause thinking big time free agents were going to come there after how he treated 2 great players and a great coach just a few years earlier was another dumb move on his part.

he almost got mcgrady, who was the only major FA he EVER went after as far as i can recall

No he absolutely went after Hill and Duncan too. Duncan let it be known early on he wasn’t leaving the Spurs. Hill refused to interview with the Bulls.

true. i should have specified players that he actually had a shot at

McGrady also didn’t almost sign here, I would say Lebron was closer to signing here than TMac, McGrady did the interview out of a courtesy to Krause.

why the hell would mcgrady give krause the courtesy when there were many other GMs that he didn't interview with?

mcgrady absolutely almost signed here. there were people in his inner circle that were pushing for it, but he said that he ultimately didn't trust their motives. also, when he was indecisive between the bulls and magic, the heat then jumped into the mix

[dice]

Krause thinking big time free agents were going to come there after how he treated 2 great players and a great coach just a few years earlier was another dumb move on his part.

he almost got mcgrady, who was the only major FA he EVER went after as far as i can recall

Krause offered Eddie Jones the max and was burned by him too. There was an article how Eddie Jones was so sad and depressed that he almost signed with Chicago because they were so terrible at the time.

I also want to say he got burned by Tim Thomas as well but I’m not 100% sure on that one, but Eddie Jones was close to happening before he backed out at the last second.

i wouldn't consider either of those guys major talents/prospects

We of course ended up with Brad Miller and Ron Mercer when all the “full boat” free agents turned us down.

and eddie robinson on a big deal the following summer

[dougthonus]

That said, Krause felt he could burn it to the ground and rebuild a true contender so would have never gone for that type of plan. The irony of that is that Krause, in his entire history, drafted 1 star player (Pippen) and really had logical reason to think he could pull off what he tried based on his history.

Ironic indeed.

Krause couldn't distinguish his own ability from his luck. Prior to the breakup, his strategy/ability was reasonably solid. His results were exceptional. He mistook this to mean his strategy/ability was exceptional.

Krause styled his own scouting abilities as "god-given", seemingly akin to Jordan's ability to play basketball. His words:

Krause, who has spent virtually his entire working life assessing baseball and/or basketball talent, feels he has a gift. Instinct, he calls it, the ability to identify and evaluate skilled athletic movement. "It's God-given," he says.

"I remember actions, how a guy walks or runs or throws or shoots. If those actions change, I see it. If a hitter is going bad, I see it in two or three swings. If somebody has the goods, I see it right away, basketball or baseball. Swinging a bat and shooting a ball are exactly the same—wrists, hand-eye coordination, recognition of the pitch, how to get the shot off."

( https://vault.si.com/vault/1993/03/15/the-sleuth )

He reminds me of the scouts Billy Beane fires in Moneyball.

That's a hilarious set of quotes given his drafting record was really pretty poor, though in 1993, it looked a lot better than it did 10 years later, so it may not have been quite as crazy to say at the time. Also, I'm sure to some extent someone asked him a question of "what makes you so great at finding talent" or something that was going to lead into an answer like this, but it's still pretty hilarious.

[Big Pippen]

Doug, it doesn't change your overall point, but you are missing BJ in your good pick category.

I personally don’t think BJ Armstrong was anything special.. a walk it up, below the rim, no defense point guard who could hit open 3’s. Hell I would take Duhon over him.

Duhon was a career 0.363 3pt shooter. BJ a career 0.425 including leading the league with 0.453 in 92/93 in which he started 74 games for the NBA Champs.

My point was neither are special players.

All BJ did was shoot wide open threes. He started on the NBA champs? Wow. So did Luc Longley.

Someone said BJ was a good draft pick by Krause, my point was he was a very marginal nba role player. He could shoot, sure. I loved his jumper.

Duhon played much better D, fwiw. Again, Im not the president of the Chris Duhon fan club or anything. I was just throwing out there that BJ was a very average nba player who we remember fondly because of his role in the dynasty.

[Friend_Of_Haley]

I personally don’t think BJ Armstrong was anything special.. a walk it up, below the rim, no defense point guard who could hit open 3’s. Hell I would take Duhon over him.

Duhon was a career 0.363 3pt shooter. BJ a career 0.425 including leading the league with 0.453 in 92/93 in which he started 74 games for the NBA Champs.

My point was neither are special players.

All BJ did was shoot wide open threes. He started on the NBA champs? Wow. So did Luc Longley.

Someone said BJ was a good draft pick by Krause, my point was he was a very marginal nba role player. He could shoot, sure. I loved his jumper.

Duhon played much better D, fwiw. Again, Im not the president of the Chris Duhon fan club or anything. I was just throwing out there that BJ was a very average nba player who we remember fondly because of his role in the dynasty.

Chris Duhon did not play good enough D to overcome his offensive deficiencies against BJ.

BJ was a good pick. Absolutely.

[HomoSapien]

From Sam Smith, some interesting Krause tidbits:

As hard headed as Jerry could be, he did in his own way eventually listen to others in a coordinated way. Jerry loved Oakley for everything Jerry believed about scouting and players, the way Oakley played, his build, the hands, the shoulders, the family. Jerry always said to look at the mom for how the players would fill out. And that he was Jerry's first draft pick as Bulls general manager for the second time. Yes, second time.

Many forget Jerry had a brief run as Bulls general manager in the mid 1970s. That after that debacle he got another chance is one of the more amazing stories in Chicago sports. Jerry had scouted for the Bulls in the early 1970s with, like all of them, some big hits and big misses. He had a bad early 70s run as an advocate of Larry Cannon who went to the ABA, and first round busts like Jimmy Collins and Kennedy McIntosh. But he found Cliff Ray and Norm Van Lier in the third round and would have had Robert Parish if he has more status with the Bulls that first time around. But an apparent coaching offer to Ray Meyer became an embarrassment to Meyer and eventually cost Krause the job after a year. Management overruled him in that draft to take Scott May over Parish. Jerry said you could build around Parish. He was right. Jerry's speciality was the overlooked, small college guys like Parish, Norm and Earl Monroe when he was a Bullets scout. Known as "the sleuth" for his raincoat and hat scouting garb and usual place behind a pillar at a small college gym, Jerry spent the time to find the guys no one wanted to wasted time on. But he'd fall too much in love with his guys.

Bulls coach Dick Motta always introduced Jerry as, "The guy who talked me out of drafting Nate Archibald (for Collins)." Like how Krause found Scottie Pippen when no one else knew the way to Central Arkansas. But in that same draft Krause was insistent on taking Joe Wolf over Horace Grant. Doug Collins was adamant about the athlete. Krause was unconvinced, but Doug and the staff were all on one side. Jerry accepted their view, as he did a few years later when the staff was unanimous the Bulls needed a physical seven footer because it still was a center league, especially in the East with Parish, Ewing, Daugherty, James Edwards and Laimbeer in Detroit and Moses Malone. Jerry accepted their wisdom. Michael Jordan later acknowledged despite his anger about the trade and losing his best friend and body guard, Oakley, the Bulls probably would not have beaten Detroit without Cartwright.

https://www.nba.com/bulls/features/ask-sam-mailbag-42920?fbclid=IwAR2j56HSMdBtCoOZ1YJqRjXx0HhRGEOyLGfTyyMGIK6EVxfYwPZvTOKCN94

[prolific passer]

Idk if you could build around Parish and the bulls had Gilmore coming that season but Dantley and English were also in that draft.

[OldSchoolNoBull]

So I listened to some of that podcast tonight that Krause did shortly before he passed. He was asked directly what led to the breakup of the dynasty from his viewpoint. What he said, briefly, was as follows:

1. That it was never personal between him and Phil, that there was only ever a problem between him and Phil in the last season of the dynasty, and that it was over contract stuff with Phil.

2. That Phil told him before the 97-98 season that he wasn't coming back after that season.

3. That he, Al Vermeil, and even Phil, all thought Longley and Rodman were done. That Longley's legs were shot and that Rodman didn't have another full season in him. And that given this, they were in a position where they were going to pay MJ and Scottie a ton of money and have little left over to address the PF and C positions.

Personally, I call BS on 1 and 2. There's been too much smoke about Krause and Phil hating each other for there not to be fire. Also, while I fully believe that by 1998, Phil was burnt out and wanted out as much as Krause wanted him out, the "I don't care if you go 82-0, you're f-ing gone" anecdote has been reported too much for it to be made up, and Krause not saying a word about that and pretending it was only Phil that wanted out seems disingenuous to me.

I actually believe 3. I mean, they weren't wrong. Longley played three more years, missing significant time in two out of the three, and Dennis played a grand total of 35 more NBA games in his career after 1998. They may well have been in a position where MJ and Scottie were still playing well, but without a frontcourt playing at the necessary level. They may have looked like the March/April 1995 Bulls. Or a worse version of the gassed 1998 playoff Bulls.

And it's also 100% believable the JR didn't want to pay the money for MJ and Scottie if management didn't think the team could win again.

As an aside, there was one other thing Krause said that was confusing to me. He was talking about the Bulls acquiring Steve Kerr. He said that Kerr had been waived by the Cavs and that the Bulls had picked up him off the waiver wire. There's nothing to support this. Any source indicates that Kerr was traded from Cleveland to Orlando midway through 1992-93, finished the season in Orlando, and than signed with Chicago in FA in the 1993 offseason. Krause was old, so maybe he was just misremembering, but it seemed weird to me that he would say something like that was just factually not true.

Link the podcast(that I took from another thread) if anyone's interested: http://m.espn.com/general/play?id=27061448

[The Box Office]

That said, Krause felt he could burn it to the ground and rebuild a true contender so would have never gone for that type of plan. The irony of that is that Krause, in his entire history, drafted 1 star player (Pippen) and really had logical reason to think he could pull off what he tried based on his history.

Ironic indeed.

Krause couldn't distinguish his own ability from his luck. Prior to the breakup, his strategy/ability was reasonably solid. His results were exceptional. He mistook this to mean his strategy/ability was exceptional.

Krause styled his own scouting abilities as "god-given", seemingly akin to Jordan's ability to play basketball. His words:

Krause, who has spent virtually his entire working life assessing baseball and/or basketball talent, feels he has a gift. Instinct, he calls it, the ability to identify and evaluate skilled athletic movement. "It's God-given," he says.

"I remember actions, how a guy walks or runs or throws or shoots. If those actions change, I see it. If a hitter is going bad, I see it in two or three swings. If somebody has the goods, I see it right away, basketball or baseball. Swinging a bat and shooting a ball are exactly the same—wrists, hand-eye coordination, recognition of the pitch, how to get the shot off."

( https://vault.si.com/vault/1993/03/15/the-sleuth )

He reminds me of the scouts Billy Beane fires in Moneyball.

Meet Grady. He likes guys with a little hair on their a$$.

[Michael Jackson]

he almost got mcgrady, who was the only major FA he EVER went after as far as i can recall

No he absolutely went after Hill and Duncan too. Duncan let it be known early on he wasn’t leaving the Spurs. Hill refused to interview with the Bulls.

true. i should have specified players that he actually had a shot at

McGrady also didn’t almost sign here, I would say Lebron was closer to signing here than TMac, McGrady did the interview out of a courtesy to Krause.

why the hell would mcgrady give krause the courtesy when there were many other GMs that he didn't interview with?

mcgrady absolutely almost signed here. there were people in his inner circle that were pushing for it, but he said that he ultimately didn't trust their motives. also, when he was indecisive between the bulls and magic, the heat then jumped into the mix

One interview during the whole recruitment parade, TMac said he owed Krause the courtesy because Krause was really the first guy to go hard on him , wanted to trade a top 50 player for him, before anyone else was. Why wouldn’t he sign here? He wasn’t going to be a lone gunman and honestly that wasn’t Krause plan either but when everything shook out no one wanted to come here. With both Melo and Lebron they weren’t going to be here alone, and I think those guys were all legitimately closer to signing that TMac. If Duncan and Hill wanted to come here it is a shoe in but they refused interviews. The whole process after that felt like a sham, and we would get used to that feeling.

[ATRAIN53]

THIS is why Sam should be the 'official' team historian.
I mean he already is IMO, but dropping tidbits like this still is awesome.

Never knew Krause is who drafted Norm VanLier!

and dangit - I know he was the 70's and it's the 90's/Last Dance Bulls.
But I want to see some Stormin Norman on this documentry so the kids get to know him and associate him with Bulls.

and wow Scot May.
remember when his son ruined the Illini perfect season?
then ate himself out of the NBA.....

I remember Parrish stint with us. It was cool having the Big Chief here, even if he was on his last legs.

I think us Bulls fans are the most educated and well versed in team management and how it works. We've been trashing our GM since the 90's. I bet fans of teams now don't even know their GM's name.

Krause has been a household name here for almost 40 years.
Love or hate the guy he left a big legacy.

Only Bulls GM with a Championship.

The NBA not putting him in the HOF before he died - knowing the guy was in poor health but they could have bestowed the honor on him so he died knowing he made it-

The MLB doing the same to Ron Santofor a decade was unbelievable.

From Sam Smith, some interesting Krause tidbits:

As hard headed as Jerry could be, he did in his own way eventually listen to others in a coordinated way. Jerry loved Oakley for everything Jerry believed about scouting and players, the way Oakley played, his build, the hands, the shoulders, the family. Jerry always said to look at the mom for how the players would fill out. And that he was Jerry's first draft pick as Bulls general manager for the second time. Yes, second time.

Many forget Jerry had a brief run as Bulls general manager in the mid 1970s. That after that debacle he got another chance is one of the more amazing stories in Chicago sports. Jerry had scouted for the Bulls in the early 1970s with, like all of them, some big hits and big misses. He had a bad early 70s run as an advocate of Larry Cannon who went to the ABA, and first round busts like Jimmy Collins and Kennedy McIntosh. But he found Cliff Ray and Norm Van Lier in the third round and would have had Robert Parish if he has more status with the Bulls that first time around. But an apparent coaching offer to Ray Meyer became an embarrassment to Meyer and eventually cost Krause the job after a year. Management overruled him in that draft to take Scott May over Parish. Jerry said you could build around Parish. He was right. Jerry's speciality was the overlooked, small college guys like Parish, Norm and Earl Monroe when he was a Bullets scout. Known as "the sleuth" for his raincoat and hat scouting garb and usual place behind a pillar at a small college gym, Jerry spent the time to find the guys no one wanted to wasted time on. But he'd fall too much in love with his guys.

Bulls coach Dick Motta always introduced Jerry as, "The guy who talked me out of drafting Nate Archibald (for Collins)." Like how Krause found Scottie Pippen when no one else knew the way to Central Arkansas. But in that same draft Krause was insistent on taking Joe Wolf over Horace Grant. Doug Collins was adamant about the athlete. Krause was unconvinced, but Doug and the staff were all on one side. Jerry accepted their view, as he did a few years later when the staff was unanimous the Bulls needed a physical seven footer because it still was a center league, especially in the East with Parish, Ewing, Daugherty, James Edwards and Laimbeer in Detroit and Moses Malone. Jerry accepted their wisdom. Michael Jordan later acknowledged despite his anger about the trade and losing his best friend and body guard, Oakley, the Bulls probably would not have beaten Detroit without Cartwright.

https://www.nba.com/bulls/features/ask-sam-mailbag-42920?fbclid=IwAR2j56HSMdBtCoOZ1YJqRjXx0HhRGEOyLGfTyyMGIK6EVxfYwPZvTOKCN94

[weneeda2guard]

Norm van lier Sloan and Parrish might have snuck in and got us a ring in the 70s especially that 76 team with Sloan ,van lier , gilmore, Bob love and boerwinkle.

[Dan Z]

Watch on YouTube

Great video. At that situation it seems that they are set on going without Jackson and that Jordan won't go without Jackson but still had hope.

I would say that this is where things go wrong... you get a guy for recruiting young talent on a year that there wouldn't be any on the Bulls... oh my... they didn't even know if there would be a season...

I know people have been piling on Jerry Krause, but it's ridiculous that he tried to push Phil out. I blame Reinsdorf for that too (even though he got Phil to sign one more year).

[Flopper]

Regarding Krause's draft record in the Jordan era, it seems like nearly all of his quality, high-value picks were perimeter players (Pippen, BJ, Kukoc). He seemed to really struggle when drafting bigs, with some notable busts/overreaches like Sellers, King, and Perdue in the top half of the 1st round (Grant excluded since it was mentioned that someone else in the FO pushed hard for that pick). The Simpkins and Caffey picks were also fairly meh, but those were late picks in weak drafts, so getting fringe rotation players was probably what you'd expect in that range.

[HomoSapien]

If you ignore that we passed on Michael Finley, Caffey was actually a solid late first-round pick. He was a significant bench player in our 97-run and proved that he was a fringe starting-level player when given the opportunity. His career flamed out due to his personal demons, but the talent was there.

I really loved how athletic he was. The guy could run the floor. He was no Finley, but we were worse off when we traded him.

Watch on YouTube

[prolific passer]

I'm wonderingg why Finley fell so far. Guy averaged 20ppg his last 3 years at Wisconsin.

[troza]

3. That he, Al Vermeil, and even Phil, all thought Longley and Rodman were done. That Longley's legs were shot and that Rodman didn't have another full season in him. And that given this, they were in a position where they were going to pay MJ and Scottie a ton of money and have little left over to address the PF and C positions.

(...)

I actually believe 3. I mean, they weren't wrong. Longley played three more years, missing significant time in two out of the three, and Dennis played a grand total of 35 more NBA games in his career after 1998. They may well have been in a position where MJ and Scottie were still playing well, but without a frontcourt playing at the necessary level. They may have looked like the March/April 1995 Bulls. Or a worse version of the gassed 1998 playoff Bulls.

And it's also 100% believable the JR didn't want to pay the money for MJ and Scottie if management didn't think the team could win again.

About this: Luc Longley played 39 games in the short season and 72 in the next. Less minutes and still helped the Suns go over the Spurts without Duncan. He could have been over but it is not like he was a great player. I've been enjoying him vs Pacers in 98 (rewatched the first 3 games until now).

Rodman... the only reason why he would not be able to take another season is his mind. The guys seemed fine physically to me in the 98 playoffs. So, I've watched all the games until game 3 of the ECF and I think I saw all of his starts: only one game under 10 rebounds (the first one). Some great passing and some good defense... even a spart in offense for game 1 of the ECF.

(and lots of weak fouls against him... the guy had a target... but also some of dirty/smart plays by him like grabing on screens and so that the refs didn't see).

If we look at what he did on other teams it is just his attitude and that no team wanted him. I do belive that with Phil, Pippen and Jordan he would have been fine in the Bulls.

So, for 99 and 00 we could have been right there with the same starting 5. Then we know that Harper, Longley and Pippen were really on the last legs.

So I call that reason also a bit of BS. Even with Longley on less minutes, wouldn't we be able to get a center?