2020 NBA Draft Thread: Bulls pick 4th: PT 2

[TheSuzerain]

Haven't been following the thread, but surprised to see so much support for Hayes.

Can someone please sell me on him?

I feel like Deni not only is like BPA at 4, but he could fit alongside our other young talent and grow with them.

Deni probably definitely has the edge on Hayes as far as BPA.

Hayes is arguably the best passer in the draft, and has a promising offensive package. Solid handle, advanced step back game, good shooting mechanics, decent athlete, solid defender and great size for the position.

Deni and Hayes are two players that should be able to make the offense easier for Coby and Zach, while also getting easier opportunities for Wendell and Lauri.

Hayes > Deni. Clearly has more upside.

Deni's upside case is murky. I honestly don't know what people are envisioning.

[HINrichPolice]

Haven't been following the thread, but surprised to see so much support for Hayes.

Can someone please sell me on him?

I feel like Deni not only is like BPA at 4, but he could fit alongside our other young talent and grow with them.

Deni probably definitely has the edge on Hayes as far as BPA.

Hayes is arguably the best passer in the draft, and has a promising offensive package. Solid handle, advanced step back game, good shooting mechanics, decent athlete, solid defender and great size for the position.

Deni and Hayes are two players that should be able to make the offense easier for Coby and Zach, while also getting easier opportunities for Wendell and Lauri.

Hayes > Deni. Clearly has more upside.

Deni's upside case is murky. I honestly don't know what people are envisioning.

Really? He's got size and athleticism and skill. But more importantly, he seems super coachable and someone that loves basketball.

This interview might change your mind on him.

Watch on YouTube

;ab_channel=NBAonESPN

[TheSuzerain]

Deni probably definitely has the edge on Hayes as far as BPA.

Hayes is arguably the best passer in the draft, and has a promising offensive package. Solid handle, advanced step back game, good shooting mechanics, decent athlete, solid defender and great size for the position.

Deni and Hayes are two players that should be able to make the offense easier for Coby and Zach, while also getting easier opportunities for Wendell and Lauri.

Hayes > Deni. Clearly has more upside.

Deni's upside case is murky. I honestly don't know what people are envisioning.

Really? He's got size and athleticism and skill. But more importantly, he seems super coachable and someone that loves basketball.

This interview might change your mind on him.

Watch on YouTube

;ab_channel=NBAonESPN

Does he have the athleticism to create and separate from an NBA defender? He looks to have great straight-line speed but that's a very narrow part of movement.

Plus his height absolutely works against him when we're talking about his ability to create.

I don't see what he's going to be doing at an elite or near-elite level in the NBA.

Seems like more of an all-around solid player if his defense holds up and his 3-point shot develops (neither of which are a given). So his upside doesn't blow your hair back.

And the downside case is pretty bad too if he can't defend NBA speed or if the shot never comes.

Can Deni pass better than Hayes? No, and no one debates this. Can he dribble better than Hayes? No, and no one debates this. Shoot better than Hayes? Probably not, both are works in process although Hayes clearly has a better shooting profile as he already has an elite FT% and can shoot off the dribble.

What am I missing here?

[Jcool0]

Hayes > Deni. Clearly has more upside.

Deni's upside case is murky. I honestly don't know what people are envisioning.

Really? He's got size and athleticism and skill. But more importantly, he seems super coachable and someone that loves basketball.

This interview might change your mind on him.

Watch on YouTube

;ab_channel=NBAonESPN

Does he have the athleticism to create and separate from an NBA defender? He looks to have great straight-line speed but that's a very narrow part of movement.

Plus his height absolutely works against him when we're talking about his ability to create.

I don't see what he's going to be doing at an elite or near-elite level in the NBA.

Seems like more of an all-around solid player if his defense holds up and his 3-point shot develops (neither of which are a given). So his upside doesn't blow your hair back.

And the downside case is pretty bad too if he can't defend NBA speed or if the shot never comes.

Can Deni pass better than Hayes? No, and no one debates this. Can he dribble better than Hayes? No, and no one debates this. Shoot better than Hayes? Probably not, both are works in process although Hayes clearly has a better shooting profile as he already has an elite FT% and can shoot off the dribble.

What am I missing here?

Hayes has almost no upside. He does a few things above average and doesnt have the athletic profile you would want. And while his FT% is high his FT rate is low (attempts less then 3 per game). So you cant even bank on that as far as projecting future shooting.

[Chi town]

Haven't been following the thread, but surprised to see so much support for Hayes.

Can someone please sell me on him?

I feel like Deni not only is like BPA at 4, but he could fit alongside our other young talent and grow with them.

Deni probably definitely has the edge on Hayes as far as BPA.

Hayes is arguably the best passer in the draft, and has a promising offensive package. Solid handle, advanced step back game, good shooting mechanics, decent athlete, solid defender and great size for the position.

Deni and Hayes are two players that should be able to make the offense easier for Coby and Zach, while also getting easier opportunities for Wendell and Lauri.

Hayes > Deni. Clearly has more upside.

Deni's upside case is murky. I honestly don't know what people are envisioning.

Haha.

So what’s Hayes upside case?

[gobullschi]

Hayes > Deni. Clearly has more upside.

Deni's upside case is murky. I honestly don't know what people are envisioning.

Really? He's got size and athleticism and skill. But more importantly, he seems super coachable and someone that loves basketball.

This interview might change your mind on him.

Watch on YouTube

;ab_channel=NBAonESPN

Does he have the athleticism to create and separate from an NBA defender? He looks to have great straight-line speed but that's a very narrow part of movement.

Plus his height absolutely works against him when we're talking about his ability to create.

I don't see what he's going to be doing at an elite or near-elite level in the NBA.

Seems like more of an all-around solid player if his defense holds up and his 3-point shot develops (neither of which are a given). So his upside doesn't blow your hair back.

And the downside case is pretty bad too if he can't defend NBA speed or if the shot never comes.

Can Deni pass better than Hayes? No, and no one debates this. Can he dribble better than Hayes? No, and no one debates this. Shoot better than Hayes? Probably not, both are works in process although Hayes clearly has a better shooting profile as he already has an elite FT% and can shoot off the dribble.

What am I missing here?

I don't think Hayes or Avidja have "elite" or "near-elite" level ability. The way the NBA is headed, defenses are struggling when forwards (LeBron, Luka, Simmons, Giannis, or centers (Jokic/Adebayo) have plus passing ability. Deni's passing ability (for his position) is what makes him such an intriguing talent.

[TheSuzerain]

Deni probably definitely has the edge on Hayes as far as BPA.

Hayes is arguably the best passer in the draft, and has a promising offensive package. Solid handle, advanced step back game, good shooting mechanics, decent athlete, solid defender and great size for the position.

Deni and Hayes are two players that should be able to make the offense easier for Coby and Zach, while also getting easier opportunities for Wendell and Lauri.

Hayes > Deni. Clearly has more upside.

Deni's upside case is murky. I honestly don't know what people are envisioning.

Haha.

So what’s Hayes upside case?

Lead guard playmaker. Literally the exact role he plays for his team in Germany.

[Jvaughn]

Really? He's got size and athleticism and skill. But more importantly, he seems super coachable and someone that loves basketball.

This interview might change your mind on him.

Watch on YouTube

;ab_channel=NBAonESPN

Does he have the athleticism to create and separate from an NBA defender? He looks to have great straight-line speed but that's a very narrow part of movement.

Plus his height absolutely works against him when we're talking about his ability to create.

I don't see what he's going to be doing at an elite or near-elite level in the NBA.

Seems like more of an all-around solid player if his defense holds up and his 3-point shot develops (neither of which are a given). So his upside doesn't blow your hair back.

And the downside case is pretty bad too if he can't defend NBA speed or if the shot never comes.

Can Deni pass better than Hayes? No, and no one debates this. Can he dribble better than Hayes? No, and no one debates this. Shoot better than Hayes? Probably not, both are works in process although Hayes clearly has a better shooting profile as he already has an elite FT% and can shoot off the dribble.

What am I missing here?

Hayes has almost no upside. He does a few things above average and doesnt have the athletic profile you would want. And while his FT% is high his FT rate is low (attempts less then 3 per game). So you cant even bank on that as far as projecting future shooting.

This just isn't true. The skill Hayes has already shown at 19 years old is very promising. He's already shown he can effectively run an offense and has elite vision. He's done this and shown flashes of parts of his game that he hasn't even begin to scratch the surface on (elite footwork, stepbacks, craftiness in the open court). The only reason anyone could look at him and say he has no upside is because he doesn't have Edwards/Toppin athleticism. But by now we know that you don't have to be an elite athlete to succeed at the NBA level.

[Chi town]

I see Hayes upside as a 6’5 Dragic. Once he grows into his body he will be a better athlete too. Left hand dominant but it will be an asset.

I see Deni as a Gordon Hayward with better two way potential.

Versatile wings are more important in this nba. I like Deni’s upside with his size and athletic profile more. I’m sold on his intensity and winning attitude. Hayes gives me that chill vibe that I don’t like to see in the youngsters. If I’m betting who reaches their potential I bet on Deni every time.

[TheSuzerain]

Really? He's got size and athleticism and skill. But more importantly, he seems super coachable and someone that loves basketball.

This interview might change your mind on him.

Watch on YouTube

;ab_channel=NBAonESPN

Does he have the athleticism to create and separate from an NBA defender? He looks to have great straight-line speed but that's a very narrow part of movement.

Plus his height absolutely works against him when we're talking about his ability to create.

I don't see what he's going to be doing at an elite or near-elite level in the NBA.

Seems like more of an all-around solid player if his defense holds up and his 3-point shot develops (neither of which are a given). So his upside doesn't blow your hair back.

And the downside case is pretty bad too if he can't defend NBA speed or if the shot never comes.

Can Deni pass better than Hayes? No, and no one debates this. Can he dribble better than Hayes? No, and no one debates this. Shoot better than Hayes? Probably not, both are works in process although Hayes clearly has a better shooting profile as he already has an elite FT% and can shoot off the dribble.

What am I missing here?

I don't think Hayes or Avidja have "elite" or "near-elite" level ability. The way the NBA is headed, defenses are struggling when forwards (LeBron, Luka, Simmons, Giannis, or centers (Jokic/Adebayo) have plus passing ability. Deni's passing ability (for his position) is what makes him such an intriguing talent.

First off, all the forwards you listed couple their passing with elite ball handling ability.

Second off, Deni averaged 2 assists per game this season against mostly crappy comp in the Israeli league. And you're telling me this is an intriguing tool by NBA standards?

I don't see how there is a chance in hell that Deni is a primary playmaker on an NBA team. Do you guys realize how high a bar that is to clear skill-wise these days?

That makes him a secondary playmaker and a supporting player. Basically hoping for a rich man's Saric.

[Chi town]

Saric? Come on. That’s so lazy. You’re better than that.

[TheSuzerain]

Saric? Come on. That’s so lazy. You’re better than that.

Deni has better athleticism than Saric but a lot of the playmaker talk is copy/paste from Saric's scouting report.

Hayward is an out-and-out wing.

Deni does not have anything resembling the fluidity and lateral shiftiness that young Hayward had with the ball. Deni is stiff by wing standards.

Deni's entire dribble game in the half court revolves around straight line drives with his right hand.

He's a tweener.

[gobullschi]

Does he have the athleticism to create and separate from an NBA defender? He looks to have great straight-line speed but that's a very narrow part of movement.

Plus his height absolutely works against him when we're talking about his ability to create.

I don't see what he's going to be doing at an elite or near-elite level in the NBA.

Seems like more of an all-around solid player if his defense holds up and his 3-point shot develops (neither of which are a given). So his upside doesn't blow your hair back.

And the downside case is pretty bad too if he can't defend NBA speed or if the shot never comes.

Can Deni pass better than Hayes? No, and no one debates this. Can he dribble better than Hayes? No, and no one debates this. Shoot better than Hayes? Probably not, both are works in process although Hayes clearly has a better shooting profile as he already has an elite FT% and can shoot off the dribble.

What am I missing here?

I don't think Hayes or Avidja have "elite" or "near-elite" level ability. The way the NBA is headed, defenses are struggling when forwards (LeBron, Luka, Simmons, Giannis, or centers (Jokic/Adebayo) have plus passing ability. Deni's passing ability (for his position) is what makes him such an intriguing talent.

First off, all the forwards you listed couple their passing with elite ball handling ability.

Second off, Deni averaged 2 assists per game this season against mostly crappy comp in the Israeli league. And you're telling me this is an intriguing tool by NBA standards?

I don't see how there is a chance in hell that Deni is a primary playmaker on an NBA team. Do you guys realize how high a bar that is to clear skill-wise these days?

That makes him a secondary playmaker and a supporting player. Basically hoping for a rich man's Saric.

I said neither Deni or Hayes have "elite" or "near-elite" ability...

I don't think Deni will ever be on any of those guys level (Giannis, Luka, Simmons, LeBron), so I totally understand your point, but unfortunately, this draft class doesn't have anyone with that type of upside. None of the prospects in this class have an elite athletic profile. Deni projects closer to a Middleton/Odom type player which would be a good fit on this roster.

Here is a nice video that breaks down his passing ability:

Watch on YouTube

I need to do more homework on Hayes. I keep reading that his highlights make him look like a better player than he really is. I've seen people throw out James Harden comparisons, but from what I've seen, he isn't anywhere close to athletic as James Harden. My initial reaction from the little I've seen of Hayes is that he is a Goran Dragic/Austin Rivers type player. Do you see something different?

[Chi town]

Saric? Come on. That’s so lazy. You’re better than that.

Deni has better athleticism than Saric but a lot of the playmaker talk is copy/paste from Saric's scouting report.

Hayward is an out-and-out wing.

Deni does not have anything resembling the fluidity and lateral shiftiness that young Hayward had with the ball. Deni is stiff by wing standards.

Deni's entire dribble game in the half court revolves around straight line drives with his right hand.

He's a tweener.

Saric was, is, and will be a 4. Never a handler in the PNR. Just the screener.

What Deni has shown in a limited tape at his age considering euro historic norms is impressive. You can’t look at his stats like you normally would die to role and burn. What he has flashed in passing and playmaking has been strong. His IQ is sky high on both sides of the ball. Look what Herro is doing with his IQ. Denis IQ is elite. His passing will be and I think his combo of creating and playmaking could grow to all star level. Put it all together and you have a top player on your team.

[PlayerUp]

Did LaMelo improve? Last game he scored 25 points on 28 shots including going 1-11 from 3 with 6 turnovers.

24/9/9 in a professional Australian league for a 19 year old is impressive no matter what way you want to swing it.

We already know LaMelo shot needs improvement but so did Lonzo. Lonzo before entering the bubble was shooting 39% from 3 on the season. If Lonzo who had a worse looking shot can improve, so can LaMelo. If LaMelo joins the Bulls, he won't be getting that many shots anyway until his actual shot as improved.

[Jstock12]

Did LaMelo improve? Last game he scored 25 points on 28 shots including going 1-11 from 3 with 6 turnovers.

24/9/9 in a professional Australian league for a 19 year old is impressive no matter what way you want to swing it.

I wouldn't put too much stock in to Australian league numbers. It's not even a top10 league in the world.

[Dez]

Did LaMelo improve? Last game he scored 25 points on 28 shots including going 1-11 from 3 with 6 turnovers.

24/9/9 in a professional Australian league for a 19 year old is impressive no matter what way you want to swing it.

I wouldn't put too much stock in to Australian league numbers. It's not even a top10 league in the world.

You're vastly underrating the NBL.

Although I don't disagree with LaMelo's being inflated, he was given free reign on a very bad team while being a turnstile on defense and incredibly inefficient.

[PlayerUp]

Did LaMelo improve? Last game he scored 25 points on 28 shots including going 1-11 from 3 with 6 turnovers.

24/9/9 in a professional Australian league for a 19 year old is impressive no matter what way you want to swing it.

I wouldn't put too much stock in to Australian league numbers. It's not even a top10 league in the world.

1. NBA
2. Euro League
3. ACB League
4. Turkish League
5. German BBL League
6. G League
7. Russian VTB League
8. Australian NBL League
9. Italy LBA League
10. France LNB League
11. China CBA League
12. ABA League
13. Greek A1 League
14. Lithuania LKL League


Here are your top leagues in the world. Australian league is arguably a top 10 league.

[drosereturn]

Did LaMelo improve? Last game he scored 25 points on 28 shots including going 1-11 from 3 with 6 turnovers.

24/9/9 in a professional Australian league for a 19 year old is impressive no matter what way you want to swing it.

I wouldn't put too much stock in to Australian league numbers. It's not even a top10 league in the world.

What are you talking about. Its way better than the Gleague only a level below Doncic's Euroleague.
The fact that he put up 17/8/7 in one of the best leagues most fellows cant even play is a very impressive feat.
And those production are mostly translatable playing against grown men with little to no help playing for one of the worst teams.
He could easily average 15/8/8 in his rookie yr and win ROY. Its Deni and Hayes that plays in a questionable league.
Your just hating on Lavar but no one can deny Balls accomplishment after all.

[rtblues]

Just curious, like an informal poll:

*If Ball is there at #4, would you take him?

*If Wiseman is there at #4, would you take him?