Pat Williams Discussion - Out 4-6 Mo (late Feb to late April)

[GoBlue72391]

you think the front office that traded a million picks for vets and turned over the entire roster in one season is patient?

Seriously. I really don't think most people realize just how small our window of contention really is.

This just the start of our long run. Zach is 26 and Lonzo is 24. I expect the Bulls to become a big time destination for disgruntled stars soon through trade and free agency. We are not gonna be done once DeRozan and Vuc start to decline. For example I can easily see us being a destination for Jokic who expires the same year Vuc does.

Lonzo is not and never will be a top 3 guy on a contending team. DeMar and Vuch are both north of 30, which significantly shortens our contention window. There's no point in being in denial about it, it is what it is, which is why it's imperative we capitalize on this opportunity.

You can't bank on the hope that big-time superstars will sign here, even with the culture change AKME has provided. That's what we've been doing for the past 20+ years and it came back to bite us in the ass every time. If we're still doing the "wait around and hope for the best" then why did we even fire GarPax in the first place? Fortunately, it's clear based on AKME's moves that's absolutely NOT what we're doing, so it's a moot point.

A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush.

[GoBlue72391]

He's not going anywhere this season.





https://www.nbcsports.com/chicago/bulls/bulls-arturas-karnisovas-says-patrick-williams-return-tbd

Lauri isn't going anywhere either

AK: I think Lauri is an important part of our team. I’m looking forward to talking to his representation.

AK: I think Lauri’s an essential part of our team, and we hope he is part of what we’re building here.

Joe Cowley: Arturas thought Lauri had a good year and was looking forward to keeping him. Let's see what the market says.

Literally comparing apples to oranges in regards to the situations of Patrick and Lauri.... but you do you I guess.

Sent from my SM-F707U using RealGM mobile app

My point was to illustrate that AKME's words to the media shouldn't be taken at face value.

[Dez]

you think the front office that traded a million picks for vets and turned over the entire roster in one season is patient?

At least the hyperbole is strong in you.

So you're saying they'll give up on a 20 year old 5 games into his second season after missing training camp when his value is at it's lowest? They'll trade Pat if they get something over the top for him (which they won't get) and not for expensive guys like Grant or Wood that won't actually put us over the top.

There's no rush despite people thinking that DeRozan or Vuc are 30+ despite them not having games that rely on athleticism.

If, internally, they've changed their tune on PWill and believe he'll never be more than a solid role player, then yes, absolutely.

He has that nebulous potential, the quality of which cannot reach a consensus as many think he has superstar potential, many think he'll just be another guy, and many people think he'll end up somewhere in-between, but everything we've seen from him so far points to role player at best. I understand he's very young and doesn't have a ton of game experience, but that's why I qualified my statement with he has "potential."

I don't think you do understand given that you say everything points to role player at best. There's absolutely not enough evidence to point to him being "*insert role here* at best".

[eierluke]

Pat Williams has no fire inside.
Being 20 or 25 makes no difference, best case scenario he'll become a follower who is doing what coaches tell him to do.

I doubt that anybody here has given up on him, but this fact limits his potential from becoming the next Kawhi Leonard to becoming Tony Snell as the best case scenario.
What does this mean? Whatever our front office decides to do with him, it won't have much affect on the future of this franchise anyway.

[Mindcrime]

Pat Williams has no fire inside.
Being 20 or 25 makes no difference, best case scenario he'll become a follower who is doing what coaches tell him to do.

I doubt that anybody here has given up on him, but this fact limits his potential from becoming the next Kawhi Leonard to becoming Tony Snell as the best case scenario.
What does this mean? Whatever our front office decides to do with him, it won't have much affect on the future of this franchise anyway.

Unfortunately this is my observation as well. Whether we wait a year or two won't matter. Guys like him have place on wining teams as role players, but if anyone expects that he is a major piece going forward is in for disappointment.

[StunnerKO]

I agree, but I reckon even that genius didn't figure that literally all of his moves were going to wind up being perfect. This new info. changes the calculus on his thoughts on PWill...else he's not as much of a genius as we think.

or....maybe he did? He did build the current Denver team. We are literally lucky as **** to have Arturas in Chicago.

Agree on the last part.

On the other hand, as tong po once pointed out to me....he was also the man that traded Donovan Mitchell for Trey Lyles.

That’s different tho Denver had a ton of guards at the time in Murray , Harris , Malik Beasley , Mudiay and Barton so nobody knew If Donovan turns out that way in Denver like he did in Utah. Denver was looking for floor stretchers to pair with Joker . At the time adding another guard to the mix made zero sense , maybe they find another taker at the time they could have done better in return but they weren’t wrong for moving him at the time . Donovan should be thank Denver he got put in the perfect spot that clicked

[sco]

I am finding myself quite annoyed reading this thread.

Neither.

The Bulls aren’t contenders, and this forum is about to get some hard doses of reality soon, IMO. There is a big difference between near contender and actual - and none of the moves available will bridge that gap.

The Bulls are also not “re”building…. They are building. To be a good team That is a couple of steps away from being contenders. Pat’s injury was a big setback. Ideally Pat gets himself up to Harrison Barnes-ish level soon, Ball continues to improve, and then the Bulls smartly use other assets to add more punch/talent to that group.

You've been pouring cold water on this team the last couple days and it's rubbing me the wrong way. That kind of thinking is akin to essentially admitting defeat to these teams months before the playoffs even start. I certainly hope the players and front office aren't thinking like that. Nobody thought the 2004 Pistons were contenders, or the 2011 Mavs, and nobody thought the 2020 Heat were going to the Finals. Nobody thought the Suns were going to the Finals last season. The games have to be played. There are only a small number of teams every year that have a chance to go all the way, and through good fortune and good management from AKME, we find ourselves as one of those few teams this year. Good chance we don't win, but at the very least a puncher's chance we do, and I'm not giving up on that in January.

I disagree (though just realized you were responding to someone else who mentioned “monster potential”). Harrison Barnes is an above average NBA starter. He became one pretty quickly, and basically stayed flat. That is what I expect out of Pat, with a small chance that he’s better, and an about equal chance that he is worse. I’m not in the “monster potential” camp… and don’t need to be to not want to package Pat PLUS other assets / useful players for a Barnes/Grant type.

If you only expect Pat to end up as a Barnes type, then why not trade him for a player who is already of that caliber? Your position would make more sense imo if you thought we were hypothetically trading away a potential Kawhi or something for Barnes or Grant.

Had he not been injured, we’d have much more clarity by now about him… that’s why the injury hurts so much. Lost critical development and evaluation time, where the Bulls are a touch better than what most expected (but go back and look where I had them in the East pre-season… 4th…)

So many talking heads and sportswriters had us struggling to even make the playoffs(doesn't speak well for them) and we're the #1 seed nearly halfway through. That's more than a touch better. I mean, I thought we were going to be really good from the outset, but that certainly wasn't the majority opinion.

Him getting injured has EVERYTHING to do with him possibly be traded. If he had playing all season found his groove like Vuc this would not even be an issue.

I can't speak for everyone, but I know I, and at least a couple others, were talking about potentially trading Pat before the season even started.

Check this out around the 2:18 mark, a reporter tells Zach how Arturas was on the radio earlier and talked about how strong the team's chemistry already is when asked about whether or not if he's going to make a move at the deadline.

Think some of you may want to temper your expectations.

I don't think Zach said anything particularly positive or negative about potential deadline moves...he kind of just said the chemistry on the team is good and he leaves the decision-making to AKME.

Honestly, I wish we had the luxury of time to see how Pat pans out - I was excited about him last season before all of this happened, and I was one of the biggest proponents of keeping him in the starting lineup when people were saying to bench him during the first few games before he got hurt - but given the current salary structure, we don't really have that much of an idea of what this team is going to look like beyond next season with Vuc, Coby, Ayo, and Javonte coming off the books in 2023 and DeMar the year after that, so I think there is merit to trying to make the most of the opportunity we have this season and next. That doesn't mean I'll trade PWill for nothing - I do value him a lot(why I wouldn't trade him for Kleber or Covington or anyone like that) - but if you think PWill's ceiling is something akin to Grant or Barnes anyway, than I think a deal makes sense.

And there's another reason to try to acquire one of those guys - so no one else does. It's been reported that a number of contenders are interested in Grant. If we don't get him, who's to say Brooklyn or Milwaukee or Miami doesn't find a way, thus making our playoff path that much harder?

Anyway, a big part of this debate seems to be a rather significant disagreement about what Pat's potential actually is.

I'm on the fence a bit on Pat. Pat has shown oodles of potential on both ends, but hasn't broken out yet. I also get the knocks on his motor and competitive fire. Part of me looks at this team and says "Pat is our potential star that we're keeping in our back pocket to carry us after DD and Vuc".

Sometimes the most valuable aspects of players in terms of trade are their potential. For a rebuilding team, Pat's limited play this season may be more easily overlooked than if he continued to struggle longer. So Pat's value may be higher than we think. Couple that with a resurgent Coby White and the POR 1st, and that package is POTENTIALLY worth a lot more than I was thinking earlier and may be enough to bring back a really good player in return.

I think the team sees Pat as a guy who's important to their future. Now all that said, I NEVER THOUGHT WE'D BE WHERE WE ARE RIGHT NOW, and I don't think they did either. The question will come down to whether the FO thinks we can legitimately compete as constructed or whether there is one guy out there who could legitimately put us over the top against the MIL, BKN and GS teams this season. If so, I could easily see AK going all in, as he is smart enough to know that he has 2 depreciating assets in DD and Vuc, and also knows that sometimes you can't sit and hope.

The good news is that we'll know more about Pat's status and Coby's consistency by the deadline, as well as what players are really available.

[JohnnyTapwater]

No ... brace? This kid is a mutant.

[NecessaryEvil]

Watch on YouTube

Check this out around the 2:18 mark, a reporter tells Zach how Arturas was on the radio earlier and talked about how strong the team's chemistry already is when asked about whether or not if he's going to make a move at the deadline.

Think some of you may want to temper your expectations.

We're already #1 in the east, even though covid protocols and still getting better. Sometimes it's wisest not to disturb that. The internal improvement this season has been fascinating to watch as a fan.

even here at 6:50, Swirsky talks about how you have to be careful with the moves you make because this team has really good chemistry

Watch on YouTube

I don't expect a trade of TBJ, Pat or Coby to be honest.

Ahh, so kind of like when AKME said Lauri is a key part of the Bulls future and they're determined to keep him in Chicago and reiterated that multiple times?

Back then we didn't really know if AKME was a straight shooter or a smoke blower when it came to his words with the media, but we now know that what they say publicly isn't necessarily how they actually feel within the organization, so this is a big nothing burger to me. Maybe they'll make a trade, maybe they won't, but based off everything we've seen from AKME so far the odds point to a trade being made.

Well he offered Lauri a deal, Lauri thought he was worth more.

AK didn’t and moved him. It’s not really the same situation

[Chi town]

No ... brace? This kid is a mutant.

Nope. The IG story gives it a better look. No brace. He had no brace at begging of game lastnight and then out it on.

The icing on the cake would be getting him back with enough games to knock off the rust for the playoffs.

[ChiCitySPORTS#1]

If Pat isn't moved, he really needs to come back this season. We need someone his size desperately for Butler/ Giannis / KD. Pretty much every other contender in our conference.

[mack2354]

Pat's floor is perfect for what we need short term. I guy who can hit the catch and shoot 3's at a high rate, play average defense at the 4, and not be a liability with defense on the peremiter. Perfect.

The problem is for a 4th pick in the draft people want a superstar. He has played way too conservative, timid, and inconsistent for that. The team is poised for success long term if he improves at the same time DeMar and Vuc start declining.

I don't think in 2022 that we need more than a 6'9 Tony Snell so I'm cool with keeping him. He may develop into more. He may not. I'm patient and don't want to move him. I really think the idea of trading Pat or not comes to how patient fans are and how small they believe our championship window is.

I wouldn't trade Pat right now and I hope our FO feels the same.

Sent from my REVVL V+ 5G using RealGM mobile app

[Risk Addict]

Pat gives me Harrison Barnes vibes. He doesn’t need to be a super star to be a super teammate or super fit. I don’t see any reason to move him right now. His development is the difference from bulls being a team with small window to team being a playoff team for the next decade.

I feel like at the moment coby white has more trade value and less importance to the team given Ayo and Carushow. Coby is due for a pay increase sooner than ayo and Pat.

[logical_art]

Before we judge Pat too harshly based on the first 5 games of the season, let's not forget Coby's slow start adjusting to a new team and new role.

[The Force.]

I feel like at the moment coby white has more trade value and less importance to the team given Ayo and Carushow. Coby is due for a pay increase sooner than ayo and Pat.

Both Coby and Ayo have two years left on their contracts. I'm assuming one of them will be moved before 2023 in a consolidation trade.

[coldfish]

Before we judge Pat too harshly based on the first 5 games of the season, let's not forget Coby's slow start adjusting to a new team and new role.

Pat's issues early on were the same ones he had last year and were his issues in college.

Maybe Pat can have a huge turnaround. I certainly hope so. I suspect there will be no trade, in which case I hope to hell he can get playing by some time in March.

[coldfish]

Pat's floor is perfect for what we need short term. I guy who can hit the catch and shoot 3's at a high rate, play average defense at the 4, and not be a liability with defense on the peremiter. Perfect.

The problem is for a 4th pick in the draft people want a superstar. He has played way too conservative, timid, and inconsistent for that. The team is poised for success long term if he improves at the same time DeMar and Vuc start declining.

I don't think in 2022 that we need more than a 6'9 Tony Snell so I'm cool with keeping him. He may develop into more. He may not. I'm patient and don't want to move him. I really think the idea of trading Pat or not comes to how patient fans are and how small they believe our championship window is.

I wouldn't trade Pat right now and I hope our FO feels the same.

Sent from my REVVL V+ 5G using RealGM mobile app

Pat's floor is someone on the bench in street clothes during one of two playoff runs with Vuc and Derozan.

I think people are thinking replacing them will be easier than it actually will. You don't hold onto a potential 4th or 5th man while wasting a year with a near MVP level player.

"Hey, MJ is in his 30's and the team has no PF but hey, Jason Caffey might be ready in a few years so let's stay away from Rodman and we will just replace MJ when he leaves."

As I said above, I suspect that there will be no trade. In which case, I sure hope that Pat starts playing in March and lives up to expectations because mack is largely right. The player who Pat theoretically could be is exactly what Chicago needs.

[logical_art]

Before we judge Pat too harshly based on the first 5 games of the season, let's not forget Coby's slow start adjusting to a new team and new role.

Pat's issues early on were the same ones he had last year and were his issues in college.

Maybe Pat can have a huge turnaround. I certainly hope so. I suspect there will be no trade, in which case I hope to hell he can get playing by some time in March.

It seems like people were much more down on Pat after this season started than at the end of last. That's my only point: Let's not overweight those 5 games in our perception forming of Pat.

[fleet]

Pat's floor is perfect for what we need short term. I guy who can hit the catch and shoot 3's at a high rate, play average defense at the 4, and not be a liability with defense on the peremiter. Perfect.

The problem is for a 4th pick in the draft people want a superstar. He has played way too conservative, timid, and inconsistent for that. The team is poised for success long term if he improves at the same time DeMar and Vuc start declining.

I don't think in 2022 that we need more than a 6'9 Tony Snell so I'm cool with keeping him. He may develop into more. He may not. I'm patient and don't want to move him. I really think the idea of trading Pat or not comes to how patient fans are and how small they believe our championship window is.

I wouldn't trade Pat right now and I hope our FO feels the same.

Sent from my REVVL V+ 5G using RealGM mobile app

Pat's floor is someone on the bench in street clothes during one of two playoff runs with Vuc and Derozan.

I think people are thinking replacing them will be easier than it actually will. You don't hold onto a potential 4th or 5th man while wasting a year with a near MVP level player.

"Hey, MJ is in his 30's and the team has no PF but hey, Jason Caffey might be ready in a few years so let's stay away from Rodman and we will just replace MJ when he leaves."

As I said above, I suspect that there will be no trade. In which case, I sure hope that Pat starts playing in March and lives up to expectations because mack is largely right. The player who Pat theoretically could be is exactly what Chicago needs.

Agreed on his floor.

If there were Rodmans on the table, many of us would feel better. Or even a Craig Kimbrel, and old, elite level player. (Even though I absolutely hated the Kimbrel deal). Some names that have been put out there will be very helpful perhaps. But some folks also are unwilling to fully give up on the kid for those type names. There is a perhaps fanciful notion out there that once Pat and Coby develop, they can be part of the next core after DDR and Vuc declined. I’m a little on the fence as well. If we were talking realistically about Siakam level guys I wouldn’t be on the fence. I doubt this team can afford slam dunk deals financially or otherwise.

I do agree that he probably won’t be traded, in part because his specific injury does have certain long term recovery questions.

[Wingy]

Pat's floor is perfect for what we need short term. I guy who can hit the catch and shoot 3's at a high rate, play average defense at the 4, and not be a liability with defense on the peremiter. Perfect.

The problem is for a 4th pick in the draft people want a superstar. He has played way too conservative, timid, and inconsistent for that. The team is poised for success long term if he improves at the same time DeMar and Vuc start declining.

I don't think in 2022 that we need more than a 6'9 Tony Snell so I'm cool with keeping him. He may develop into more. He may not. I'm patient and don't want to move him. I really think the idea of trading Pat or not comes to how patient fans are and how small they believe our championship window is.

I wouldn't trade Pat right now and I hope our FO feels the same.

Sent from my REVVL V+ 5G using RealGM mobile app

Pat's floor is someone on the bench in street clothes during one of two playoff runs with Vuc and Derozan.

I think people are thinking replacing them will be easier than it actually will. You don't hold onto a potential 4th or 5th man while wasting a year with a near MVP level player.

"Hey, MJ is in his 30's and the team has no PF but hey, Jason Caffey might be ready in a few years so let's stay away from Rodman and we will just replace MJ when he leaves."

As I said above, I suspect that there will be no trade. In which case, I sure hope that Pat starts playing in March and lives up to expectations because mack is largely right. The player who Pat theoretically could be is exactly what Chicago needs.

The biggest problem beyond the injury, and wanting a 4th pick to be a star (which, I don't think is a substantially real problem in terms of number of people that actually think like that) is that even if he does come back -- he's still a ways away from even getting to that floor that we need now.

Unless he suddenly turns some corner coming off a long layoff, and significant injury - despite some positive flashes - he wasn't average defensively, nor good on the perimeter. Then combine his slow release + more talented/harder playing/more disciplined playoff defenses - how often does he get his shot off despite generally good %s? With that it's questionable how well he can even deliver on those catch and shoot 3s. If he were at that floor already, I'd hope early returns on the medicals might tell us we could be good holding on for now. That floor could be years away still.

+1 to thinking replacement of DeMar/Vuc is going to be easy. I think AK can do it, but immediately with zero gap while still in Zach's physical prime? Tall, tall task. I don't see how we have anything but a short window w/Zach's max coming.

It takes two to tango, and an upgrade deal might not be there despite our 1000s of posts. But if there is, and we balk due to some dude who doesn't seem destined to be an all star, and could be years away from a modest floor? Sheesh.