The Around The NBA Thread

[CobyWhite0]

Knicks don't have enough high-skill 3P shooters to win this playoff series. Quigley is a rookie riding the bench. They lack the fire-power to hang with ATL's multiple high-volume shooters. It's largely been more about a young Hawks team underachieving than the Knicks being a sham squad. It's basically the 13/14 Bulls; not sure what Thibs can do. They're playing a way more talented team. Barrett and Randle need to develop their shots further.

I could buy that explanation, if the Knicks hadn't swept the Hawks in the regular season. Thibs managed to beat this "way more talented team" 3 out of 3 during the season, which is kind of helping to make the point that Thibs is a great regular season coach because he gets his team to play hard every night.

[kulaz3000]

BD has also had the privilege of coaching Durant, Paul George, Westbrook, SGA, and CP3. He’s had way more talent to work with than Thibs ever has had.

When he had Durant and Westbrook sure, but Thib's also had MVP Rose and a pretty deep roster. And you also have to consider that Billy was also in the Western Conference.

[CobyWhite0]

If anyone at NYK was expecting anything other than big regular season success and playoff struggles with Thibs I have no idea what they were thinking hiring him. He's been coaching so long and you know exactly what you're getting, and he's delivered on everything. If anyone was expecting new tricks from a 63 year old coach, they shouldn't be making hiring decisions.

I'm going to assume NY is happy with what they bought. Thibs is one of the best coaches in the league to get you a playoff appearance.

Outstanding post, you couldn't possibly be more accurate in your assessment.

A Thibs defense can be tough to handle in the regular season, when it's 1/72nd of a long season. But get them in the playoffs, where you have time to prepare for and adjust to Thibs' schemes, and it's a much easier ball game.

I don't think I'd entirely agree. To some degree, sure, but the bottom line is, the Hawks have more talent up and down their roster, and in the playoffs no matter how much you've overachieved with lesser players, the team with more talent is usually going to win out, ESPECIALLY when you have a capable coach, with the added benefit of scouting extensively.

You give Thib's more talent and a deeper roster, it's an entirely different ball game. Just the simple fact that Derrick Rose has been the best player on the roster tells you where the talent level of the Knicks team is at. And that's no knock of Derrick Rose.

I agree with everything you said, because it just reinforces the point that Thibs' teams are overachievers in the regular season, but they can't keep it up in the playoffs (when every team plays hard every night).

[dice]

Knicks don't have enough high-skill 3P shooters to win this playoff series. Quigley is a rookie riding the bench. They lack the fire-power to hang with ATL's multiple high-volume shooters. It's largely been more about a young Hawks team underachieving than the Knicks being a sham squad. It's basically the 13/14 Bulls; not sure what Thibs can do. They're playing a way more talented team. Barrett and Randle need to develop their shots further.

I could buy that explanation, if the Knicks hadn't swept the Hawks in the regular season. Thibs managed to beat this "way more talented team" 3 out of 3 during the season, which is kind of helping to make the point that Thibs is a great regular season coach because he gets his team to play hard every night.

it's way more than the hawks trying harder in the playoffs

knicks averaged 120+ against the hawks in the reg. season. in the playoffs? 99
randle averaged 37 on 73% TS against the hawks in the reg. season. playoffs? 14 on 34% TS

it's mostly a julius randle thing

[kulaz3000]

The Clippers aren't all that likeable, but I really don't like the Mavs either - lead by Luka, and his annoying face, they complain, and moan way too much.

[CobyWhite0]

BD has also had the privilege of coaching Durant, Paul George, Westbrook, SGA, and CP3. He’s had way more talent to work with than Thibs ever has had.

When he had Durant and Westbrook sure, but Thib's also had MVP Rose and a pretty deep roster. And you also have to consider that Billy was also in the Western Conference.

BD coached OKC for 5 years, 8 All-Stars

TT coached CHI for 5 years, 8 All-Stars
TT coached MIN for 2 years, 2 All-Stars (both the same season)
TT coached NYK for 1 years, 1 All-Stars

BD coached Durant, CP3, and SGA (in his 2nd season) for 1 year each. He coached PG13 for 2 years. The one year he coached KD, they took the 73-win Warriors to 7 games in the WC Finals.

And obviously, BD coached in the much tougher conference.

Thibs' 1st season in Minnesota, Vegas had their over/under at 41.5, and they were predicted to win 40-42 games by the major publications. They only won 31, and I'm pretty sure BD has never had a team underachieve to that level.

Just my opinion, but I'm quite confident that the Chicago Bulls currently have a better head coach than the New York Knicks.

[Am2626]

BD has also had the privilege of coaching Durant, Paul George, Westbrook, SGA, and CP3. He’s had way more talent to work with than Thibs ever has had.

When he had Durant and Westbrook sure, but Thib's also had MVP Rose and a pretty deep roster. And you also have to consider that Billy was also in the Western Conference.

Thibs had MVP Rose for 1 playoff run and that team made it to the Eastern Conference Finals in his first year. The next year doesn’t count because Rose blew out his knee in the first playoff game that year. Also Paul George played at a near MVP level when BD coached him. In my opinion the level of talent that BD had to work with was considerably better than what Thibs had. I really wish Thibs were coaching this year’s Bucks team because we could see what Thibs can do in the playoffs with an elite Roster. Again Thibs has never underachieved as a coach while BD definitely did this year with the Bulls.

[jc23]

Watch Ayton or booker get hurt now

[Am2626]

BD has also had the privilege of coaching Durant, Paul George, Westbrook, SGA, and CP3. He’s had way more talent to work with than Thibs ever has had.

When he had Durant and Westbrook sure, but Thib's also had MVP Rose and a pretty deep roster. And you also have to consider that Billy was also in the Western Conference.

BD coached OKC for 5 years, 8 All-Stars

TT coached CHI for 5 years, 8 All-Stars
TT coached MIN for 2 years, 2 All-Stars (both the same season)
TT coached NYK for 1 years, 1 All-Stars

BD coached Durant, CP3, and SGA (in his 2nd season) for 1 year each. He coached PG13 for 2 years. The one year he coached KD, they took the 73-win Warriors to 7 games in the WC Finals.

And obviously, BD coached in the much tougher conference.

Thibs' 1st season in Minnesota, Vegas had their over/under at 41.5, and they were predicted to win 40-42 games by the major publications. They only won 31, and I'm pretty sure BD has never had a team underachieve to that level.

Just my opinion, but I'm quite confident that the Chicago Bulls currently have a better head coach than the New York Knicks.

You are saying that a team that finished 29-53 the previous year was supposed to win 41 games bringing back pretty much the same roster the following year? I think those Vegas Odds had more to do with Thibs coming over to Minnesota than the actual roster and talent of that team. Anyone thinking that Timberwolves team was supposed to win that many games would be out of their mind especially in a dominant Western Conference during that era.

Also if Thibs is coaching this year’s Bulls team the Bulls are easily in the playoffs. Depending on what happens with the top 4 draft pick possibilities not sure if that would have been the best long term thing for the Bulls but Thibs gets this Bulls team in the playoffs.

[dice]

BD has also had the privilege of coaching Durant, Paul George, Westbrook, SGA, and CP3. He’s had way more talent to work with than Thibs ever has had.

When he had Durant and Westbrook sure, but Thib's also had MVP Rose and a pretty deep roster. And you also have to consider that Billy was also in the Western Conference.

Thibs had MVP Rose for 1 playoff run and that team made it to the Eastern Conference Finals in his first year. The next year doesn’t count because Rose blew out his knee in the first playoff game that year. Also Paul George played at a near MVP level when BD coached him. In my opinion the level of talent that BD had to work with was considerably better than what Thibs had. I really wish Thibs were coaching this year’s Bucks team because we could see what Thibs can do in the playoffs with an elite Roster. Again Thibs has never underachieved as a coach while BD definitely did this year with the Bulls.

the bulls played to expectations the entire season, so i really don't see how donovan underachieved. that said, thibs has obviously been a more successful nba coach

for god's sake, the knicks had a .318 winning % last year. this year they were .569 with roughly the same roster. thibs was completely robbed for coach of the year

billy donovan was 3rd in coach of the year voting last year. monty williams won the award this year. common denominator? chris paul joins their team

[CobyWhite0]

Thibs:
2011 Bulls 46.5 (62)
2012 Bulls 47.5 (50)
2013 Bulls 56.5 (48)
2014 Bulls 47.5 (45)
2015 Bulls 55.5 (50)
2017 Wolves 41.5 (31)
2018 Wolves 48.5 (47)
2019 Wolves 41.5 (36)**
2021 Knicks 21.5 (41)

Donovan:
2016 Thunder 57.5 (55)
2017 Thunder 45.0 (47)
2018 Thunder 53.5 (48)
2019 Thunder 48.5 (49)
2020 Thunder 32.5 (44)
2021 Bulls 29.5 (31)

**Thibs was 19-21 when he got fired, so the Wolves were 'under' while he was coaching. So you certainly can't count that one against him - but what you CAN hold against him is the fact that he gave up a future All-Star (plus another future All-Star once he gets to a team that will use him properly) for a 1-year rental of "the perfect Thibs player"... only to see that guy force his way out of town after only one season.

BD's teams exceeded their expectations in 4 of 6 seasons.
TT's teams exceeded their expectations in 3 of 8 seasons.

Their resumes are quite similar, with one glaring exception: Donovan has never been named by 1/3 of players polled (34.6%) as "the coach they'd least want to play for." I think that makes a huge difference in free agency - not because of this particular poll, but because IMO players would much rather play for a players coach who works WITH them and gets their input than a hardass who believes it's his way or the highway.

[dice]

Thibs:
2011 Bulls 46.5 (62)
2012 Bulls 47.5 (50)
2013 Bulls 56.5 (48)
2014 Bulls 47.5 (45)
2015 Bulls 55.5 (50)
2017 Wolves 41.5 (31)
2018 Wolves 48.5 (47)
2019 Wolves 41.5 (36)**
2021 Knicks 21.5 (41)

Donovan:
2016 Thunder 57.5 (55)
2017 Thunder 45.0 (47)
2018 Thunder 53.5 (48)
2019 Thunder 48.5 (49)
2020 Thunder 32.5 (44)
2021 Bulls 29.5 (31)

**Thibs was 19-21 when he got fired, so the Wolves were 'under' while he was coaching. So you certainly can't count that one against him - but what you CAN hold against him is the fact that he gave up a future All-Star (plus another future All-Star once he gets to a team that will use him properly) for a 1-year rental of "the perfect Thibs player"... only to see that guy force his way out of town after only one season.

BD's teams exceeded their expectations in 4 of 6 seasons.
TT's teams exceeded their expectations in 3 of 8 seasons.

Their resumes are quite similar, with one glaring exception: Donovan has never been named by 1/3 of players polled (34.6%) as "the coach they'd least want to play for." I think that makes a huge difference in free agency - not because of this particular poll, but because IMO players would much rather play for a players coach who works WITH them and gets their input than a hardass who believes it's his way or the highway.

were you even a bulls fan when thibs was here? if so, how do you not remember that the bulls did not meet preseason expectations for multiple seasons because of the derrick rose injury?

tom thibodeau got REMARKABLE performance out of the bulls pretty much every season. he did so again this season with the knicks. he failed in minnesota. meanwhile, billy donovan has done absolutely nothing of note as an nba head coach

and by the way, the jimmy butler situation in minny had zippity-do-da to do with coaching...other than thibs being unable to get guys like wiggins and KAT to have a little pride in their effort

[Dresden]

Glad to see the Lakers lose again. If AD is out for the next game, the Lakers are in real trouble.

[kodo]

Oof Mavs went 5-30 from the 3 point line. A game like this makes the Lauri rumor almost feasible.

[CobyWhite0]

When he had Durant and Westbrook sure, but Thib's also had MVP Rose and a pretty deep roster. And you also have to consider that Billy was also in the Western Conference.

BD coached OKC for 5 years, 8 All-Stars

TT coached CHI for 5 years, 8 All-Stars
TT coached MIN for 2 years, 2 All-Stars (both the same season)
TT coached NYK for 1 years, 1 All-Stars

BD coached Durant, CP3, and SGA (in his 2nd season) for 1 year each. He coached PG13 for 2 years. The one year he coached KD, they took the 73-win Warriors to 7 games in the WC Finals.

And obviously, BD coached in the much tougher conference.

Thibs' 1st season in Minnesota, Vegas had their over/under at 41.5, and they were predicted to win 40-42 games by the major publications. They only won 31, and I'm pretty sure BD has never had a team underachieve to that level.

Just my opinion, but I'm quite confident that the Chicago Bulls currently have a better head coach than the New York Knicks.

You are saying that a team that finished 29-53 the previous year was supposed to win 41 games bringing back pretty much the same roster the following year? I think those Vegas Odds had more to do with Thibs coming over to Minnesota than the actual roster and talent of that team. Anyone thinking that Timberwolves team was supposed to win that many games would be out of their mind especially in a dominant Western Conference during that era.

I'm not saying it - Vegas said it. ESPN said it. Bleacher Report said it:
_________________________

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2664038-nba-predictions-2016-17-win-loss-projections-for-every-team-pre-training-camp

How can you not get excited about the Minnesota Timberwolves? Each of the following players is reason enough to tune into a Minnesota broadcast, which should quickly become one of the nation's League Pass favorites:

Karl-Anthony Towns was so good as a rookie that we're already comfortable calling him a top-20 player, even if he's only tapped a tiny percentage of his ginormous potential.
Zach LaVine blossomed into a sharp-shooting offensive stud as soon as the 'Wolves realized he was best suited in an off-ball role. Oh, and he's pretty decent at dunking.
Andrew Wiggins is brimming over with upside on both ends of the court and should come far closer to his status as a generational prospect entering his third professional season.
Ricky Rubio's becoming a tremendously underrated point guard as he pairs his dazzling passing skills with a better spot-up jumper and great defensive instincts.
Kris Dunn should assert himself as a defensive ace and great playmaker during his rookie season.
And that's saying nothing of Nemanja Bjelica (one of the best shooters casual fans have never heard of) and Gorgui Dieng (a defensive stud with a burgeoning offensive game who would break out if he were given more opportunities). Plus, you can throw in the depth-aiding additions of Cole Aldrich and Co., as well as the most effective move of all: replacing Sam Mitchell with Tom Thibodeau as the head coach.

There are many reasons everyone is predicting a leap from these young 'Wolves.
==================================================================

Also if Thibs is coaching this year’s Bulls team the Bulls are easily in the playoffs. Depending on what happens with the top 4 draft pick possibilities not sure if that would have been the best long term thing for the Bulls but Thibs gets this Bulls team in the playoffs.

You are saying that a team that finished 22-43 the previous year was supposed to make the playoffs bringing back pretty much the same roster the following year?

So it's completely crazy to think Thibs could get the 2016-17 Wolves to increase their winning percentage by .146 "bringing back pretty much the same roster"?
Yet you're 100% certain that Thibs could EASILY get the 2020-21 Bulls to increase their winning percentage by .120 "bringing back pretty much the same roster"?

Don't you think there's some major hypocrisy in those 2 statements?

And that .120 increase is just to get to the #10 seed, you're still 2 road wins away from the playoffs. If you want to "easily" make the playoffs (i.e. the #6 seed, avoiding the play-in), we would have had to increase our winning percentage by .218 - we'd need an increase of .134 to make the 8th seed.

[TheStig]

BD has also had the privilege of coaching Durant, Paul George, Westbrook, SGA, and CP3. He’s had way more talent to work with than Thibs ever has had.

When he had Durant and Westbrook sure, but Thib's also had MVP Rose and a pretty deep roster. And you also have to consider that Billy was also in the Western Conference.

BD coached OKC for 5 years, 8 All-Stars

TT coached CHI for 5 years, 8 All-Stars
TT coached MIN for 2 years, 2 All-Stars (both the same season)
TT coached NYK for 1 years, 1 All-Stars

BD coached Durant, CP3, and SGA (in his 2nd season) for 1 year each. He coached PG13 for 2 years. The one year he coached KD, they took the 73-win Warriors to 7 games in the WC Finals.

And obviously, BD coached in the much tougher conference.

Thibs' 1st season in Minnesota, Vegas had their over/under at 41.5, and they were predicted to win 40-42 games by the major publications. They only won 31, and I'm pretty sure BD has never had a team underachieve to that level.

Just my opinion, but I'm quite confident that the Chicago Bulls currently have a better head coach than the New York Knicks.

The big difference is that most of the Thibs all stars were not all stars before or after his tenure. Loul and Noah and likely Randle.Rose while making an allstar after his first year with Thibs was never the same guy and wasn't anywhere near as impactful in the playoffs after that.

BD had healthy established all stars in OKC.

Durant, CP3, PG, Westbrook were all all stars before and after BD. Lavine will also likely be an allstar after his tenure with BD.

[PrimzyBulls81]

Oof Mavs went 5-30 from the 3 point line. A game like this makes the Lauri rumor almost feasible.

Maybe.. But in a sign & trade who would you want from Mavs, 2nd rounder? Brunson I doubt would be available..

[Dominator83]

As I put in a different board, Thibs is not being exposed here. What's being exposed is that having a team that features Julius Randle as its best player, isn't a very good team. I mean seriously, is Randle any different from Vucecic? That's like making the playoffs as a 4 seed behind Vuc. That's a COY quality job

[TheStig]

As I put in a different board, Thibs is not being exposed here. What's being exposed is that having a team that features Julius Randle as its best player, isn't a very good team. I mean seriously, is Randle any different from Vucecic? That's like making the playoffs as a 4 seed behind Vuc. That's a COY quality job

I never got the Thibs being exposed in the playoffs arguments. I never thought his teams lost to anyone that was worse. They always just overachieved in the regular season. They were always built one sided. He never had the star power or two way players that better teams had.

[jc23]

Lakers were the best team last year, but the bubble situation did help them imo. Just like this shortened season has hurt them.