Pat Williams Discussion - Out 4-6 Mo (late Feb to late April)

Wingy · Post #861 » by **Wingy** » Sun Jan 9, 2022 10:51 pm

Bulls2021 wrote:Isnt the repeater tax really the killer? That's why I think they may be OK going into the luxury tax for one year, but not a 2nd year. This is why I don't see them using the TPE this year for a guy making 3.5m~+. It will put them in the luxury tax if I'm not mistaken, and they'll almost surely be above the threshold next seasons.

Good point, and saw you point it out in another thread. Makes it an even worse move to guarantee guys like Thomas.

Chi town · Post #862 » by **Chi town** » Sun Jan 9, 2022 11:43 pm

Wingy wrote:
Bulls2021 wrote:Isnt the repeater tax really the killer? That's why I think they may be OK going into the luxury tax for one year, but not a 2nd year. This is why I don't see them using the TPE this year for a guy making 3.5m~+. It will put them in the luxury tax if I'm not mistaken, and they'll almost surely be above the threshold next seasons.

Good point, and saw you point it out in another thread. Makes it an even worse move to guarantee guys like Thomas.

No way they pay the tax this season. They def pay tax with Zach on a max next season. Following season Vuc is up and with cap going higher j can see him and DDR resigning for cheaper if we are contending

PlayerUp · Post #863 » by **PlayerUp** » Sun Jan 9, 2022 11:44 pm

Bulls didn't pay tax for many years while we were rebuilding and earned alot of money during this timeframe. Now is the time for Reinsdorf to spend making this team competitive so the Bulls image and brand improves along with the net worth of the organization. When the Bulls are rebuilding in the future, he can make up for some of those losses again.

Repeat 3-peat · Post #864 » by **Repeat 3-peat** » Sun Jan 9, 2022 11:57 pm

Read on Twitter

Still wearing a brace for basketball activities.

Repeat 3-peat · Post #865 » by **Repeat 3-peat** » Mon Jan 10, 2022 12:14 am

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GoBlue72391 · Post #866 » by **GoBlue72391** » Mon Jan 10, 2022 12:20 am

Just a random thought, but if we had prime Luol Deng as our PF we would probably be the favorites to win it all, or at least one of the favorites. Can Grant or Barnes be that player? If so, a trade is definitely worth it.

Edit: Wrong thread. Meant to put this in the PF thread

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NecessaryEvil · Post #867 » by **NecessaryEvil** » Mon Jan 10, 2022 12:23 am

GoBlue72391 wrote:Just a random thought, but if we had prime Luol Deng as our PF we would probably be the favorites to win it all, or at least one of the favorites. Can Grant or Barnes be that player? If so, a trade is definitely worth it.

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Luol's handles made me sad.

6-13 never really improved all that much during his career except for when he was about to get traded to Memphis for Pau, then he went ape sh*t.

GoBlue72391 · Post #868 » by **GoBlue72391** » Mon Jan 10, 2022 12:31 am

NecessaryEvil wrote:
GoBlue72391 wrote:Just a random thought, but if we had prime Luol Deng as our PF we would probably be the favorites to win it all, or at least one of the favorites. Can Grant or Barnes be that player? If so, a trade is definitely worth it.

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Luol's handles made me sad.

6-13 never really improved all that much during his career except for when he was about to get traded to Memphis for Pau, then he went ape sh*t.

Deng's pedestrian ball handling was more pronounced because we had no one to serve as the secondary ballhandler behind Rose. That wouldn't be a problem on this team at all, and a Deng-like player on this team wouldn't be asked to dribble much aside from straight-line drives and occasional fastbreaks.

A 6'8", 6'9" lengthy defensive forward who can guard multiple positions and hit threes and score off simple drives and cuts would be ideal. Basically, what we wish PWill was and hope he can become.

I think Grant or Barnes can fill that role, but apparently a lot of people don't.

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NecessaryEvil · Post #869 » by **NecessaryEvil** » Mon Jan 10, 2022 5:21 am

Read on Twitter

?s=20

Chi town · Post #870 » by **Chi town** » Mon Jan 10, 2022 5:29 am

Still no timeline. It early Jan. Would love to see him training again by Feb 1st. One month to get back in form and then hopefully playing in March.

Chi town · Post #871 » by **Chi town** » Mon Jan 10, 2022 5:32 am

20 games to end regular season from March-April.

jordanwilliams6 · Post #872 » by **jordanwilliams6** » Mon Jan 10, 2022 6:08 am

I feel like the FO definitely expects him to be back and will plan for that but will continue to downplay expectations to the public so he can work at his own pace.

Even late March will give him 10 games to build up to speed. We saw how much benefit Coby got from those initial 10 awful games before he turned a corner. I don’t expect much from PWill in the playoffs but he’ll give us another adequate big wing defender to try and counter against Durant & Giannis.

sco · Post #873 » by **sco** » Mon Jan 10, 2022 1:35 pm

I think you guys are expecting way too much from Pat this season. He's not going to be even a marginal contributor. Best case, he comes in and gets some meaningful experience in the playoffs as a 10-12 MPG bench player.

StunnerKO · Post #874 » by **StunnerKO** » Mon Jan 10, 2022 4:03 pm

Pat just being a body for defense is meaningful enough , nobody expecting his offense to show up in this short of time

MrSparkle · Post #875 » by **MrSparkle** » Mon Jan 10, 2022 4:40 pm

GoBlue72391 wrote:
NecessaryEvil wrote:
GoBlue72391 wrote:Just a random thought, but if we had prime Luol Deng as our PF we would probably be the favorites to win it all, or at least one of the favorites. Can Grant or Barnes be that player? If so, a trade is definitely worth it.

Sent from my SM-S115DL using RealGM Forums mobile app

Luol's handles made me sad.

6-13 never really improved all that much during his career except for when he was about to get traded to Memphis for Pau, then he went ape sh*t.
Deng's pedestrian ball handling was more pronounced because we had no one to serve as the secondary ballhandler behind Rose. That wouldn't be a problem on this team at all, and a Deng-like player on this team wouldn't be asked to dribble much aside from straight-line drives and occasional fastbreaks.

A 6'8", 6'9" lengthy defensive forward who can guard multiple positions and hit threes and score off simple drives and cuts would be ideal. Basically, what we wish PWill was and hope he can become.

I think Grant or Barnes can fill that role, but apparently a lot of people don't.

Sent from my SM-S115DL using RealGM Forums mobile app

It’d help of course. Honestly, ideally I’d move Lonzo and sweetener for a PF like Grant, and then use the rest of the chips to consolidate back into a scoring guard. Like, screw it - I’d also just go for FVV at that point (ie for Coby & Pat). That’s a deadly roster: FVV, Zach, Demar, Grant, Vuc.

Having just signed Ball, that’d be cold-blooded. But the reality is we have Caruso and Ayo crossing skill sets and positions, and they’re all guards being pushed to front-court minutes. We need shooters and more on-ball threats while also having this frontcourt size issue. Our offense kinda sucks when 3Ps aren’t falling or Vuc isn’t on a roll.

Obv. Barnes and Grant would be big upgrades, but the bigger problem is really whether Lonzo and Vuc are actually championship caliber starters this year. To me the ideal PG would be a consistent/prime/rich version of Coby (cough, VanVleet). Lonzo is actually more the 6th man type imo (Shaun Livingston).

But anyway, I digress. It’s a complicated puzzle. Javonte starting at pf has actually generally looked fine to me. The energy and chemistry is usually really good with those 5. He’s out right now, with Caruso, and if you ask me, the combined defensive disruptions of those two and Lonzo/Ayo are what give us our identity…. Zach and Demar are just a reliable 50-60 ppg.

It’d be really nice to see this team at a true 100%. But then, you can only play Coby/Ayo/Caruso so much at PF (absurd actually). There’s gotta be a consolidation trade coming. It’d be Paxish to keep such a log-jam of small guards. Hard to break up what seems like a great camaraderie, but you can’t have 4 PGs and 0 PFs (officially) in a playoff series. But I have to say, it’s very tricky - who has the best ceiling: Lonzo, Ayo or Coby? Who is the best threat at PG in May? Or do you commit to small ball and see how it fares in post-season before making big moves?

One thing for certain is Demar benefits from small ball. He’s a midrange player with slow feet on D. So the more speedy help defenders and 3P shooters, the better.

PrimzyBulls81 · Post #876 » by **PrimzyBulls81** » Mon Jan 10, 2022 5:23 pm

People really expect PWill could be a factor on defense in playoffs? He couldnt guard anything special even in regular season.
Now after long injury, I dont expect nothing at all.. Could be just body for fouling other SF/PF for 10min

Bulls2021 · Post #877 » by **Bulls2021** » Mon Jan 10, 2022 5:26 pm

PrimzyBulls81 wrote:People really expect PWill could be a factor on defense in playoffs? He couldnt guard anything special even in regular season.
Now after long injury, I dont expect nothing at all.. Could be just body for fouling other SF/PF for 10min

This is how I feel. Sometimes I wonder if I'm crazy or if people are looking at PWill through rose colored glasses. People describe him as a special athlete and praise his great defense, but I've seen neither. I think he could be a great defender someday, but he isn't yet.

Post #878 » by **DuckIII** » Mon Jan 10, 2022 5:33 pm

PrimzyBulls81 wrote:People really expect PWill could be a factor on defense in playoffs? He couldnt guard anything special even in regular season.
Now after long injury, I dont expect nothing at all.. Could be just body for fouling other SF/PF for 10min

For all Pat’s inconsistency defensively last season (not so much inconsistent as much as started well and then got progressively worse), he’d still be an upgraded defensive element we need so long as he has a few weeks to get it together before the playoffs.

Madd Squabbles · Post #879 » by **Madd Squabbles** » Mon Jan 10, 2022 5:45 pm

Wingy wrote:
Michael Jackson wrote:Pat being hurt absolutely hurt his development. Look at Coby. This team brings the best out IMHO. Even Cook was looking good. TBJ looks better, Javonte does etc... Who actually looks worse on this team? No the injury set Pat back and I don't think he would have been as timid, I think he would have found his place. That being said, this culture is in place right now and it won't go away when he is back.

As far as replacements for him, I don't see a perfect fit. Honestly Pat may amount to a hill of beans but so far AK has had a pretty good nose for guys (even Theis or Thad he kept them for a reason last year circumstances failed but that's moot) That was his first decision though really, so I am going to have faith, even though Williams frustrates me but he is a kid, more than other young kids. He wasn't even a starter in college. Blah blah blah. We are not trading for Siakim for financial reasons. Barnes or Grant this year is an upgrade no doubt but once again don't fit in the financials. I mean who do you get for him? Unless you get something surefire, I think you hang onto him. Maybe I am wrong. If AK trades him I do still trust his judgement. If he sticks with him well... I will trust that.

How !@$#-ing pathetic you even have to type the bolded part.

Yes on the general sentiment of hurting his development, but I don't know if we see this revelation of PWill even by this point, or even the end of the season if he stayed healthy. Right, wrong, or indifferent - one thing Coby has going for him is the willingness to be aggressive. Pat just doesn't have that. I know it was an extremely small sample size, but with all the new team energy in the world, and Ball/Caruso/Javonte flying around like rabid animals...we still saw the same old, steady, not even running particularly hard Pat all too often. It's a lot like it said in the recent Wiggins article that was on ESPN. Good luck getting him to go at your speed, and motivation level.

I like him, and everything fans can see points to him being a good kid, with a solid long-term future. The equation just changed when this whole thing clicked about as perfectly as it could. I just don't see the extreme upside in him. I've said this so many times, but you absolutely, positively cannot sacrifice increasing this team's chances for a guy with solid to very good upside. You only do that if you're pretty confident you're looking at a future all star...and I just don't see that at all.

I remember John Collins with the Hawks not having a particularly high motor his first couple years in the league as well. I even remember some Hawks fans wanting to trade him. Then a switch clicked on for him and he had played at an all-star level since.

StunnerKO · Post #880 » by **StunnerKO** » Mon Jan 10, 2022 6:09 pm

PrimzyBulls81 wrote:People really expect PWill could be a factor on defense in playoffs? He couldnt guard anything special even in regular season.
Now after long injury, I dont expect nothing at all.. Could be just body for fouling other SF/PF for 10min

Well his conditioning wasn’t there because he had no training camp or pre season and he was coming off a bad ankle injury now it’s reversed his ankle is fully healed and now he has to get his conditioning up but his legs work lol if we get him back for 10-20 games before the playoffs he should be back in shape . It’s not illogical , even if it’s 6 fouls it’s 6 fouls we didn’t have