OT- The Last Dance documentary

[dumbell78]

so lebron's sitting at home when he could be competing for his 4th title, then he learns that a huge MJ documentary will be moved up to dominate discussion for at least a month ("are you ****ing kidding me right now?")



also, bill wennington seems like a solid guy in the limited coverage of him. first we learn that he goes over to talk to rodman at practice when nobody else would. then tonight we see him laughing at seinfeld's joke as he exits the locker room after meeting w/ MJ

Was it just me or was that Seinfeld part awkward?

Sure, may come across that way to many ppl. I bet it felt awkward in that locker room but that is Jerry Seinfeld humor in a nut shell and that's what makes it great IMO. That last bit where he points to the board and says some random play wont work, its classic Seinfeld lol. I thought it was hysterical how Phil didn't give a f%%k about him.

[troza]

93-95 and 98-2000 were 4 years that MJ would have still been very productive. I wonder had he played what his numbers would look like.

Does he pass Kareem? How many more title?

I’m sure he takes a blemish on his finals record but it still would be interesting to see what a numbers chasing MJ would have finished with. Like what if he went to la in 98.

Ripples in a pond, I know.

From 91 to 93 his numbers didn't change much. And in 96 those were about the same. That is kind of easy to imagine... I would say more 4500 points to his total (I would say around 2500 per year, but he had around 500 in the final games of the 94/95 season).

So I would say that he would have more than Kareem. Then you have 3 years (or 2 and half, considering that one season was short) of good production... maybe somewhere between 5000 to 6000 points added if he stayed in Chicago as primary options, if he stayed injury free.

On Lakers I would say a bit less. That would mean that he didn't play in the 98/99 season? But he would be able to get something around 20 to 25 points per game. So... something between 3000 and 4000 points in his first two seasons on the Lakers... or would he get that just only on 99/00 giving space to Kobe after that?

One other "what if": if he didn't had to do so much to get back into shape in 2001... would he avoid having is ribs broken and all the problems he got for trying to compensate? If so, I would say that, at least, until the injury he got vs Sacramento, he would score more than he did.

If he didn't retire he could be the only player in the 40k points. That would be fitting for him and a record for the ages. I do believe that Lebron can reach that as long as he avoid serious injuries. The way the game is played now and the way he takes care of himself, I would say that it is almost a matter of when he gets there.

[NADROJ]

Am I a terrible Bulls fan if I'm enjoying the documentary but find it completely uninteresting?

[TheGoatIs]

....

[troza]

Am I a terrible Bulls fan if I'm enjoying the documentary but find it completely uninteresting?

Why? I still haven't seen it but from what I've been reading there hasn't been lots of new information.

I will only judge when I see it but if it is about the last dance it feels like it is talking more about other things. Sure, some of them are necessary (the Pippen contract situation) to explain what happened during that season, but others seem like it doesn't matter for this even if it is good. Let's see when all is said and done.

[prolific passer]

Well like Roy Williams said in episode one. Jordan never turned off his competitiveness. As for him not wanting to be involved into politics? His choice and kind of refreshing considering todays political landscape and how much celebs and athletes are involved on sides.

[prolific passer]

Regarding Krause's draft record in the Jordan era, it seems like nearly all of his quality, high-value picks were perimeter players (Pippen, BJ, Kukoc). He seemed to really struggle when drafting bigs, with some notable busts/overreaches like Sellers, King, and Perdue in the top half of the 1st round (Grant excluded since it was mentioned that someone else in the FO pushed hard for that pick). The Simpkins and Caffey picks were also fairly meh, but those were late picks in weak drafts, so getting fringe rotation players was probably what you'd expect in that range.

There was a few good players in some of those drafts of the 90s that were in the range that the bulls picked that they just passed on. Mostly because of Krause's ego.

[Bowly]

Not sure if this has been mentioned, but with all the players who have commented on The Last Dance from first threepeat, seems to be missing a big Chicago presence of Stacey King. Is it because Jordan didn't like him. As someone who is involved with the Bulls Broadcasting, it is odd that he hasn't been on.

[RedBulls23]

Magic Johnson remains one of the most charismatic people. He comes off great in this series so far.

[RedBulls23]

Read on Twitter

[Red8911]

Totally agree with MJ about what he said about politics, I wish all athletes were like that.

I don't. They can be big influencers.

“don't think that statement needs to be corrected because I said it in jest on a bus with Horace Grant and Scottie Pippen,” Jordan said during the documentary. “It was thrown off the cuff. My mother asked to do a PSA for Harvey Gantt, and I said, 'Look, Mom, I'm not speaking out of pocket about someone that I don't know. But I will send a contribution to support him.' Which is what I did.”

Jordan added that he didn’t see himself as a Muhammad Ali-type figure. “I do commend Muhammad Ali for standing up for what he believed in. But I never thought of myself as an activist. I thought of myself as a basketball player," he said. "I wasn't a politician when I was playing my sport. I was focused on my craft. Was that selfish? Probably. But that was my energy. That's where my energy was.”


I disagree, MJ is a true professional sports figure. Does MJ have anything to do with politics? No, he’s a basketball player and he influenced from the court for basketball. He didn’t even care about politics. What lebron is doing today is a disgrace imo. Do people really need a sports player or celebrity to tell them who to vote for ? If that’s the case then they shouldn’t be voting at all. They would ask those people why did you vote for that candidate and they will answer because Lebron said so lol. That’s just sad.

[Red8911]

Not sure if this has been mentioned, but with all the players who have commented on The Last Dance from first threepeat, seems to be missing a big Chicago presence of Stacey King. Is it because Jordan didn't like him. As someone who is involved with the Bulls Broadcasting, it is odd that he hasn't been on.

Yeah I was thinking the same, it’s weird that’s he’s not included or shown at all.

[Big Pippen]

While I am still loving this doc, I continue to find the editing and episode arc’s poorly structured.

Im impressed with the grace and class that Magic and Larry “passed the torch” to Michael. There is a reason they are still beloved and revered.

Toni deserved more time and more voice. Hopefully, more to come.

I was never a Kobe fan, but was impressed with the way MJ grew to mentor and support him over time. MJ obviously was the inspiration/model for Kobe, and its a little bit out of character for MJ not to be threatened by anything compared to him.

[ATRAIN53]

I'm enjoying it too - but just last night my kid was like -'this is not very well done. why do they keep jumping back and forth. I can't keep track.....'

I told him - hey, thats just to show you how long MJ dominated.

but I kinda agree

This doesn't feel as much like a story of the 1997 season as it does a full on MJ documentry.

I am dying to see more of that footage from 97.
That candid stuff liek him playing quarters with the UC security
Randy Brown begging for tix
MJ stuck in his hotel room, alone....

I really hope the next 4 episodes are heavy on that 1997 footage, it's the stuff they rumored they had and what we really want.

[TheFinishSniper]

While I am still loving this doc, I continue to find the editing and episode arc’s poorly structured.

Im impressed with the grace and class that Magic and Larry “passed the torch” to Michael. There is a reason they are still beloved and revered.

Toni deserved more time and more voice. Hopefully, more to come.

I was never a Kobe fan, but was impressed with the way MJ grew to mentor and support him over time. MJ obviously was the inspiration/model for Kobe, and its a little bit out of character for MJ not to be threatened by anything compared to him.

I think there are few reasons for that. One is for sure by time Kobe made All-Star and was getting that comparasion, Jordan was basically on verge of retirement. He already knew he was playing last time in MSG for instance and by June same year he will likely retire. It was his last season. While it was out of his character he saw someone similar like him coming up in league and making notice. Both personality and skillset wise. That likely in some way felt different in his eyes instead taking it as "competition".

[SeniorWalker]

Barkely went on the radio today and basically confirmed what I've always thought about this franchise since childhood. Mr. Reinsdorf didn't want to pay anyone and has tried to make Krause the fall guy.
He was close friends with MJ during his prime years and recounted a story about MJ being pissed on the phone because he had to fight tooth and nail to get a fair market value contract from Reinsdorf. Michael, the greatest of all time most popular athlete on earth Jordan, and you're haggling him about a few million dollars when hes made you worth so much more than you were? MJ said, quote "this motherf**er don't wanna pay me".

Everybody should be going at JR's head, not Krause. It's bull. If JR had paid his players, history is different. If JR really didn't want the dynasty to end, he had the power to stop it. Krause had no power to override anything JR didn't want and that's true for any GM that's ever worked for him. JR having done some nice things for some players on occasion doesn't change the fact that he was and is a cheap bastard who plays silly political chess. He's Vito corleone without the murder, which is why he keeps hacks with no integrity like KC Johnson on the payroll. Which is why so many high profile players over the years have avoided Chicago like the plague, word gets around the league. Everything about the franchise that I've hated since childhood, can be traced back to him, it's really just common sense but I'm glad at least some people know firsthand.

[Big Pippen]

Barkely went on the radio today and basically confirmed what I've always thought about this franchise since childhood. Mr. Reinsdorf didn't want to pay anyone and has tried to make Krause the fall guy.
He was close friends with MJ during his prime years and recounted a story about MJ being pissed on the phone because he had to fight tooth and nail to get a fair market value contract from Reinsdorf. Michael, the greatest of all time most popular athlete on earth Jordan, and you're haggling him about a few million dollars when hes made you worth so much more than you were? MJ said, quote "this motherf**er don't wanna pay me".

Everybody should be going at JR's head, not Krause. It's bull. If JR had paid his players, history is different. If JR really didn't want the dynasty to end, he had the power to stop it. Krause had no power to override anything JR didn't want and that's true for any GM that's ever worked for him. JR having done some nice things for some players on occasion doesn't change the fact that he was and is a cheap bastard who plays silly political chess. Which is why so many high profile players over the years have avoided Chicago like the plague, word gets around the league. Everything about the franchise that I've hated since childhood, can be traced back to him, it's really just common sense but I'm glad at least some people know firsthand.

I don’t disagree with the main point, but anyone expecting an owner to pay a dollar more than they can get away with doesn’t understand ownership mentality. Would I have made Phil another year? Would I have kept Scottie around 4-5 more years? Yes. But I also lack the tenacity and drive to ever make enough to own a NBA team either.

Why do Subway and Taco Bell have a breakfast menu? Because corporations lack all common sense when it comes to restraint. They can not help themselves when it comes to a cash grab. Some of you are looking at Riensdorf like he is your rich uncle or pal or a force for civic good in Chicago. He is a corporation. He cares twice as much about profit as he does about people.

Also, Krause imploded his career and reputation no matter what anyone else did. Krause had great success, and then Krause failed because of Krause.

[HomoSapien]

Barkely went on the radio today and basically confirmed what I've always thought about this franchise since childhood. Mr. Reinsdorf didn't want to pay anyone and has tried to make Krause the fall guy.
He was close friends with MJ during his prime years and recounted a story about MJ being pissed on the phone because he had to fight tooth and nail to get a fair market value contract from Reinsdorf. Michael, the greatest of all time most popular athlete on earth Jordan, and you're haggling him about a few million dollars when hes made you worth so much more than you were? MJ said, quote "this motherf**er don't wanna pay me".

Everybody should be going at JR's head, not Krause. It's bull. If JR had paid his players, history is different. If JR really didn't want the dynasty to end, he had the power to stop it. Krause had no power to override anything JR didn't want and that's true for any GM that's ever worked for him. JR having done some nice things for some players on occasion doesn't change the fact that he was and is a cheap bastard who plays silly political chess. Which is why so many high profile players over the years have avoided Chicago like the plague, word gets around the league. Everything about the franchise that I've hated since childhood, can be traced back to him, it's really just common sense but I'm glad at least some people know firsthand.

I don’t disagree with the main point, but anyone expecting an owner to pay a dollar more than they can get away with doesn’t understand ownership mentality. Would I have made Phil another year? Would I have kept Scottie around 4-5 more years? Yes. But I also lack the tenacity and drive to ever make enough to own a NBA team either.

Why do Subway and Taco Bell have a breakfast menu? Because corporations lack all common sense when it comes to restraint. They can not help themselves when it comes to a cash grab. Some of you are looking at Riensdorf like he is your rich uncle or pal or a force for civic good in Chicago. He is a corporation. He cares twice as much about profit as he does about people.

Also, Krause imploded his career and reputation no matter what anyone else did. Krause had great success, and then Krause failed because of Krause.

I get both sides of the debate, but I agree that it's becoming abundantly clear that Reinsdorf was the bigger issue here. He could have muzzled Krause for the sake of the team. It's confusing that he had the foresight to keep Krause out of the contract negotiations with Jackson in 97, but didn't do anything to stop him from claiming that he could win 82 games and still wouldn't be brought back. We've heard it regularly over the years, but Reinsdorf never loved basketball and he himself has admitted that he hasn't always given the Bulls the attention they need.

[Big Pippen]

Just to be clear, I am saying that JR was a successful owner, but not a “good” owner in terms of maximizing his lucky streak / gift horse.

Krause deserves credit for building two three peat rosters, but his epithet also needs to point out he was a colossal failure without Jordan and Phil.

[SeniorWalker]

Barkely went on the radio today and basically confirmed what I've always thought about this franchise since childhood. Mr. Reinsdorf didn't want to pay anyone and has tried to make Krause the fall guy.
He was close friends with MJ during his prime years and recounted a story about MJ being pissed on the phone because he had to fight tooth and nail to get a fair market value contract from Reinsdorf. Michael, the greatest of all time most popular athlete on earth Jordan, and you're haggling him about a few million dollars when hes made you worth so much more than you were? MJ said, quote "this motherf**er don't wanna pay me".

Everybody should be going at JR's head, not Krause. It's bull. If JR had paid his players, history is different. If JR really didn't want the dynasty to end, he had the power to stop it. Krause had no power to override anything JR didn't want and that's true for any GM that's ever worked for him. JR having done some nice things for some players on occasion doesn't change the fact that he was and is a cheap bastard who plays silly political chess. Which is why so many high profile players over the years have avoided Chicago like the plague, word gets around the league. Everything about the franchise that I've hated since childhood, can be traced back to him, it's really just common sense but I'm glad at least some people know firsthand.

I don’t disagree with the main point, but anyone expecting an owner to pay a dollar more than they can get away with doesn’t understand ownership mentality. Would I have made Phil another year? Would I have kept Scottie around 4-5 more years? Yes. But I also lack the tenacity and drive to ever make enough to own a NBA team either.

Why do Subway and Taco Bell have a breakfast menu? Because corporations lack all common sense when it comes to restraint. They can not help themselves when it comes to a cash grab. Some of you are looking at Riensdorf like he is your rich uncle or pal or a force for civic good in Chicago. He is a corporation. He cares twice as much about profit as he does about people.

Also, Krause imploded his career and reputation no matter what anyone else did. Krause had great success, and then Krause failed because of Krause.

I understand the logic but sorry if I don't think doing business in a game like this is comparable to taco bell. Sure I know nothing about the corporate life at taco bell, but in this business players are the commodity. And players are human beings so you have to deal with that side of it whether you'd like to or not. If you treat a guy poorly, he will respond in kind. If you treat the greatest basketball commodity to ever walk the face of the earth poorly, you're not that smart of a business owner. You just got lucky and you're trying to cash out because the business has become too big for you. You're playing with scared money. And that's why this franchise post Jordan has done virtually nothing. A brief pulse with Rose which was again blind luck. Reinsdorf found some blind luck in the 80s and has been coasting on it to this day. And when asked to do more, he sends out his minions to dispel to the tension, and maintain status quo.