Pat Williams Discussion - Out 4-6 Mo (late Feb to late April)

MrSparkle · Post #881 » by **MrSparkle** » Mon Jan 10, 2022 6:39 pm

I don't know why the Bulls board thinks Pat is some kind of defensive liability, but it sure goes against what fellow NBA coaches, players and media have said.

The dude is jacked and athletic for his size, and he's got a hell of a lot more shooting potential than Torrey Craig or Jae Crowder.

Sorry but it's plain stupid to conclude he's worthless this year and next, based on the 20yo's 5 games coming off injury (and out of shape), and then going into another injury.

Could he bust? Sure. But it's plain wrong to say he's a complete scrub with no ceiling.

FriedRise · Post #882 » by **FriedRise** » Mon Jan 10, 2022 6:49 pm

Yeah seeing how good Coby has looked after he shook off his rust, I'm optimistic that Pat can do the same now that his teammates aren't G-Leaguers. I can't remember how well he guarded the best of the best last year as a rookie, but I remember him constantly putting those guys in tough situations.

He guarded both LeBron and Kawhi as well as anybody, but those guys just kept hitting their contested midrange fadeaways over and over. I'd say that's good defense, better offense type situation. Because of his size, no one would just be running through him like they would all year against Javonte or DJJ.

sco · Post #883 » by **sco** » Mon Jan 10, 2022 7:07 pm

I think you guys are overestimating his defensive prowess. I will grant that he was NBA average last season, and hey, that was for a rookie, but let's not pretend we saw eliteness on that end. He is/was slow on rotations and had trouble staying in front of quick guys.

Again, I'm talking about his likely contributions this/next season (i.e. our contention window). I totally think there's upside, but it will likely be too late to help a DD led team compete.

MrSparkle · Post #884 » by **MrSparkle** » Mon Jan 10, 2022 7:18 pm

sco wrote:I think you guys are overestimating his defensive prowess. I will grant that he was NBA average last season, and hey, that was for a rookie, but let's not pretend we saw eliteness on that end. He is/was slow on rotations and had trouble staying in front of quick guys.

Again, I'm talking about his likely contributions this/next season (i.e. our contention window). I totally think there's upside, but it will likely be too late to help a DD led team compete.

Who doesn't? Jimmy would get cooked by Kemba Walker.

Steph scored 40pts on Caruso/Lonzo/Ayo.

Lebron couldn't contain Jason Terry.

In the NBA, you can't stop guards who are hot, unless they have absolutely no one to pass to.

Pat matched up fine with superstar forwards.

GoBlue72391 · Post #885 » by **GoBlue72391** » Tue Jan 11, 2022 12:03 am

MrSparkle wrote:

Watch on YouTube

I don't know why the Bulls board thinks Pat is some kind of defensive liability, but it sure goes against what fellow NBA coaches, players and media have said.

The dude is jacked and athletic for his size, and he's got a hell of a lot more shooting potential than Torrey Craig or Jae Crowder.

Sorry but it's plain stupid to conclude he's worthless this year and next, based on the 20yo's 5 games coming off injury (and out of shape), and then going into another injury.

Could he bust? Sure. But it's plain wrong to say he's a complete scrub with no ceiling.

I haven't seen anyone say he's a defensive liability, just that he's not as good defensively as his reputation makes him out to be, plus with the long layoff after injury it's reasonable to assume he'll be even worse than he was initially until he gets back into midseason form, which may not happen until next season.

I also haven't seen anyone say he's worthless, a scrub, and has no ceiling.

GoBlue72391 · Post #886 » by **GoBlue72391** » Tue Jan 11, 2022 12:07 am

sco wrote:I think you guys are overestimating his defensive prowess. I will grant that he was NBA average last season, and hey, that was for a rookie, but let's not pretend we saw eliteness on that end. He is/was slow on rotations and had trouble staying in front of quick guys.

Again, I'm talking about his likely contributions this/next season (i.e. our contention window). I totally think there's upside, but it will likely be too late to help a DD led team compete.

Ehh, he wasn't even NBA average defensively last year. Certainly not bad, but slightly below average with some significant flashes and the potential to be good on that end one day. I would say he was pretty good defensively for a rookie, but not compared to the league as a whole.

I do think he will become a good or better defender eventually, but I don't think he'll ever be a true stopper/lockdown/All-D team guy due to his lack of lateral footspeed.

NecessaryEvil · Post #887 » by **NecessaryEvil** » Tue Jan 11, 2022 4:01 am

MrSparkle wrote:

Watch on YouTube

I don't know why the Bulls board thinks Pat is some kind of defensive liability, but it sure goes against what fellow NBA coaches, players and media have said.

The dude is jacked and athletic for his size, and he's got a hell of a lot more shooting potential than Torrey Craig or Jae Crowder.

Sorry but it's plain stupid to conclude he's worthless this year and next, based on the 20yo's 5 games coming off injury (and out of shape), and then going into another injury.

Could he bust? Sure. But it's plain wrong to say he's a complete scrub with no ceiling.

prolific passer · Post #888 » by **prolific passer** » Tue Jan 11, 2022 6:26 am

Hmm. If the bulls would have signed a decent power forward at the beginning of the season and move Pat to the bench with Jones Jr., Caruso, and White.? Would Pat had stayed healthy and how good would the bulls have been?

NecessaryEvil · Post #889 » by **NecessaryEvil** » Tue Jan 11, 2022 7:51 am

sco wrote:I think you guys are overestimating his defensive prowess. I will grant that he was NBA average last season, and hey, that was for a rookie, but let's not pretend we saw eliteness on that end. He is/was slow on rotations and had trouble staying in front of quick guys.

Again, I'm talking about his likely contributions this/next season (i.e. our contention window). I totally think there's upside, but it will likely be too late to help a DD led team compete.

Personally I'd bring him off of the bench this season and the next. Let him earn his spot.

G Ball / Caruso / Ayo
G LaVine / White
F DeRozan / Green
F (FA) / Williams
C Vucevic / Bradley

If I'm AK, I go after serbian born ( 8-)

) PF Nemanja Bjelica from the GSW in the offseason to plug into the starting role until Pat is ready.

Wingy · Post #890 » by **Wingy** » Tue Jan 11, 2022 1:47 pm

prolific passer wrote:Hmm. If the bulls would have signed a decent power forward at the beginning of the season and move Pat to the bench with Jones Jr., Caruso, and White.? Would Pat had stayed healthy and how good would the bulls have been?

We would’ve seen God disguised as Patrick Williams.

prolific passer · Post #891 » by **prolific passer** » Tue Jan 11, 2022 3:24 pm

Wingy wrote:
prolific passer wrote:Hmm. If the bulls would have signed a decent power forward at the beginning of the season and move Pat to the bench with Jones Jr., Caruso, and White.? Would Pat had stayed healthy and how good would the bulls have been?

We would’ve seen God disguised as Patrick Williams.

Jordan who?

Macallan · Post #892 » by **Macallan** » Tue Jan 11, 2022 6:16 pm

NecessaryEvil wrote:
sco wrote:I think you guys are overestimating his defensive prowess. I will grant that he was NBA average last season, and hey, that was for a rookie, but let's not pretend we saw eliteness on that end. He is/was slow on rotations and had trouble staying in front of quick guys.

Again, I'm talking about his likely contributions this/next season (i.e. our contention window). I totally think there's upside, but it will likely be too late to help a DD led team compete.

Personally I'd bring him off of the bench this season and the next. Let him earn his spot.

G Ball / Caruso / Ayo
G LaVine / White
F DeRozan / Green
F (FA) / Williams
C Vucevic / Bradley

If I'm AK, I go after serbian born ( ) PF Nemanja Bjelica from the GSW in the offseason to plug into the starting role until Pat is ready.

Bjelica will be 34 in May and is really more of a stretch 5 at this point. He works in the Warriors system, but he really doesn't solve the Bulls PF issues, especially on the defensive end.

iqureshi · Post #893 » by **iqureshi** » Tue Jan 11, 2022 6:24 pm

I noticed last year he would guard the best player but was always a slightly slow on all his guards. He knew what he wanted to do (often the right defensive move) but was split seconds too slow. Wondered if this would get better with experience and better defenders around him.

1985Bear · Post #894 » by **1985Bear** » Tue Jan 11, 2022 7:18 pm

I really hope he can come back with 15-20 games left. The way he has active hands on the perimeter and on drives looks so much like the way Lonzo and Caruso get their hands on balls. Adding Pat to the perimeter D with those 2 will be fun to watch. Pat is also good at keeping his hands up in passing lanes. Caruso and Lonzo just have a knack for getting around loose balls and if Pat can continue to be good at knocking the ball loose, it can only help our fast breaks.

kodo · Post #895 » by **kodo** » Tue Jan 11, 2022 9:02 pm

The cast is off and he's rehabbing. Get well big guy.

Read on Twitter

?

sco · Post #896 » by **sco** » Tue Jan 11, 2022 9:05 pm

kodo wrote:The cast is off and he's rehabbing. Get well big guy.

Read on Twitter
?

I feel your enthusiasm, but chucking up 3's with his good hand doesn't really count as progress. Also, I thought he's only allowed to shoot corner 3's based on his first few games. :wink:

Chi town · Post #897 » by **Chi town** » Tue Jan 11, 2022 11:50 pm

MrSparkle wrote:
sco wrote:I think you guys are overestimating his defensive prowess. I will grant that he was NBA average last season, and hey, that was for a rookie, but let's not pretend we saw eliteness on that end. He is/was slow on rotations and had trouble staying in front of quick guys.

Again, I'm talking about his likely contributions this/next season (i.e. our contention window). I totally think there's upside, but it will likely be too late to help a DD led team compete.

Who doesn't? Jimmy would get cooked by Kemba Walker.

Steph scored 40pts on Caruso/Lonzo/Ayo.

Lebron couldn't contain Jason Terry.

In the NBA, you can't stop guards who are hot, unless they have absolutely no one to pass to.

Pat matched up fine with superstar forwards.

Great post. So true.

sco · Post #898 » by **sco** » Wed Jan 12, 2022 12:11 am

Chi town wrote:
MrSparkle wrote:
sco wrote:I think you guys are overestimating his defensive prowess. I will grant that he was NBA average last season, and hey, that was for a rookie, but let's not pretend we saw eliteness on that end. He is/was slow on rotations and had trouble staying in front of quick guys.

Again, I'm talking about his likely contributions this/next season (i.e. our contention window). I totally think there's upside, but it will likely be too late to help a DD led team compete.

Who doesn't? Jimmy would get cooked by Kemba Walker.

Steph scored 40pts on Caruso/Lonzo/Ayo.

Lebron couldn't contain Jason Terry.

In the NBA, you can't stop guards who are hot, unless they have absolutely no one to pass to.

Pat matched up fine with superstar forwards.

Great post. So true.

OK, but I'll go one step further and say that Pat had trouble staying in front of average speed forwards too. Now I'm willing to say that it may be due to not being familiar enough with opponents and the Bulls' defensive scheme, such that he was slow to react, but he just wasn't impressive defensively. He didn't match up fine with superstar forwards, at all.

Does this mean Pat won't become a plus defender? Of course not, but I am of the opinion that he is not at all guaranteed to ever be more than average.

MrSparkle · Post #899 » by **MrSparkle** » Wed Jan 12, 2022 2:16 am

sco wrote:
Chi town wrote:
MrSparkle wrote:
Who doesn't? Jimmy would get cooked by Kemba Walker.

Steph scored 40pts on Caruso/Lonzo/Ayo.

Lebron couldn't contain Jason Terry.

In the NBA, you can't stop guards who are hot, unless they have absolutely no one to pass to.

Pat matched up fine with superstar forwards.

Great post. So true.

OK, but I'll go one step further and say that Pat had trouble staying in front of average speed forwards too. Now I'm willing to say that it may be due to not being familiar enough with opponents and the Bulls' defensive scheme, such that he was slow to react, but he just wasn't impressive defensively. He didn't match up fine with superstar forwards, at all.

Does this mean Pat won't become a plus defender? Of course not, but I am of the opinion that he is not at all guaranteed to ever be more than average.

Well sure. I don't think there are any guarantees whatsoever with Pat. You either have a journeyman or a high-ceiling starter. There is no doubt that his production all-around was trash, and Kawhi and others still cooked.

But his rookie defensive rating was already a little better than average. His rookie DBPM was better than Ayo's. On par with Mikal (who was a 22yo rookie). Little below Jimmy and Crowder.

He's really green. He doesn't process the speed of the NBA game; like 2 gears too slow. I think the athletic and talent potential is all there. I don't know if his maturation is a 1, 2 or 3y process (or never; sure, bust is always an option). He was picked as a very long-term project, and everyone was pretty candid about that. But I'd say his defense is solid enough to guard stars functionally. If you can play your project, it's a good situation. The problem is when a project is unplayable (Sekou, Killian Hayes, Darko... good lord, Detroit).

But if the guy can play, and a coach sees a use for a 19yo project on a team that isn't a complete tank job (cough, Detroit)... That's a good sign.

Post #900 » by **Senor Chang** » Wed Jan 12, 2022 2:30 am

Edit: wrong thread